!@% Sebastian!

[Jonathan Watters]

But Chalmers knows his role and his limitations, which is the type of player I always take. I guess I'm not convinced that Telfair's 2.34 assist to turnover ratio compared to Chalmers 2.28 is really anything to brag about.

But remember, Telfair is so much better as a passer that even though he does nothing else as well as Chalmers, he's a better overall player.

.06 difference in ast/to ratio is a HUGE difference, unlike that 47% vs 54% in TS%. That's nothing.

[Biff Cooper]

To my viewing eye, I have a decent amount of confidence in Bassy's shooting when he's spotted up and shooting off a pass. I cringe every time he shoots off his own dribble - particularly when it's early in the shot clock and nobody else on the team has touched the ball. He has been better about this over the past couple months and has been a much better PG because of it.

[Krapinsky]

Do you really think Telfair's shooting percentage would go up if he was in Chalmers' role?
Yes, I do think Telfair's shooting % would go up in Chalmer's role and vice versa. I'm not saying it would make up the whole difference or even half, but it would be closer. Stats do not mean everything.

It's a tough argument to make because you need evidence of a player moving in and out of a different offensive system. An example, if I may suggest, could be Derek Fisher. A player like Fisher sees a significant improvement in his shooting % by playing in the triangle. He's never asked to create his own offense. Look at Fisher's career numbers and my guess is you'll see a significant dip in his efficiency during the years he left the Lakers to play in Utah. Now Chalmers role in Miami's system isn't as kind as the Triangle, but it's still an upgrade over Minnesota's IMO.

The problem is that you are talking about spot up shooter going to a place where he has to be more of "the man". Not a player who can't hit a spot up shot going into a role where he is a spot up shooter.

Once again, I'll say that Telfair will never, ever be on a good team where he has the opportunity to be anything but a spot up shooter. He gets open looks all the time, and continually proves he can't hit them. What is there to argue here?

For this discussion, I fail to see what difference this makes. If Chalmers plays for the Wolves, then you agree his shooting % goes down. But if Telfair goes to Miami you are saying his shooting % would stay the same (Basti and I disagree). Regardless, it seems you agree with me that you must look to more than the players stats before you become incredulous with one player being so much better than the other. MnWi is correct is pointing out this applies to more than just shooting % if you were comparing the players overall, as opposed to just their shooting efficiency as I was doing. Thus, indeed the same reasoning could easily be applied to assists, free throw attempts, perhaps even steals.

The same argument applies to their passing skills. Telfair is allowed to have the ball in his hands quite a bit, and has many more chances to create than Chalmers does playing next to Wade. Telfair comes in at 36th in the NBA in assist to turnover ratio (right behind Willie Green), and Chalmers is 41st. Chalmers averages 4.6 assists in 31 minutes per game, and Telfair averages 4.6 assists per game in 27 minutes per game. Switch roles, and I bet Chalmers' per minute assist numbers would be higher. But Chalmers knows his role and his limitations, which is the type of player I always take. I guess I'm not convinced that Telfair's 2.34 assist to turnover ratio compared to Chalmers 2.28 is really anything to brag about.

That's true. Chalmers, knows his role. But applied to Telfair, how much of his attempt at a larger role is his stubborness (for lack of a better word), and how much of it is the coaches? I haven't heard any complaints from the bench regarding Telfair shooting to much.

Ollie's job is to play a Chalmer's like role on the Wolves (albeit he's less productive), and the Wolves are not any better with him in the lineup compared to Telfair. Assuming you agree, (maybe you don't) how much of Chalmers appearing better than Telfair do you think is system related, as opposed to talent?

[Jonathan Watters]

For this discussion, I fail to see what difference this makes. If Chalmers plays for the Wolves, then you agree his shooting % goes down. But if Telfair goes to Miami you are saying his shooting % would stay the same (Basti and I disagree). Regardless, it seems you agree with me that you must look to more than the players stats before you become incredulous with one player being so much better than the other.

The difference is that I think Telfair's inability to switch roles and be a spot up shooter on a good team is quite relevant. I'm really not concerned that Chalmers might come down to earth a bit when forced to be more of the man. If it ever comes to that, I want no part of that team. It is a screwed up, toxic situation.

The point is that neither player should ever have to be in that situation. They are bit players - effective bit players shoot the ball well and force the defense to pay attention to them.

And this is very close to point #1 when it comes to the "debate" we are having here.

That's true. Chalmers, knows his role. But applied to Telfair, how much of his attempt at a larger role is his stubborness (for lack of a better word), and how much of it is the coaches? I haven't heard any complaints from the bench regarding Telfair shooting to much.

Does anybody think Telfair shoots too much? I don't. I think he shoots too poorly. He has to attempt to make defenses honest, he's just failing at it.

Ollie's job is to play a Chalmer's like role on the Wolves (albeit he's less productive), and the Wolves are not any better with him in the lineup compared to Telfair. Assuming you agree, (maybe you don't) how much of Chalmers appearing better than Telfair do you think is system related, as opposed to talent?

It is hard to read into the +/- numbers all that much here. First off, the sample size is way too small. Quadruple it and it still wouldn't be enough to draw substantial conclusions from. Secondly, we are talking about the guy whose job is to blend in and not shake the boat's effect on the team's +/-. It is highly unlikely that there would be a significant difference to begin with, and if there was it would be much more reasonable to assume it comes more from who Ollie is playing with rather than Ollie himself.

[JMillott]

Telfair is at best a backup PG and he might not even be that.

.471% TS career, 97 career ORT, 113 career DRT and 1.8 career win shares in over 8,000 minutes

That is bad, very very bad. He can only be called better then other bad, very very very bad PG's.

[invno1]

An eye for a eye makes the whole world blind.

[Rakocevicftw]

So when I say something sarcastically it is a straw man - when you say something sarcastically it is a joke. Hypocrisy in its truest form.

No the difference is that you actually asked me/shrink to defend the statement as if it was a position we held (this is what a straw man is).

I, on the other hand, was just making fun of you and didn't pretend/think that this was your honest position and ask you to defend it.

You REALLY ARGUED that I had stated passing was the only important skill for a PG. I didn't honestly argue that you thought passing was a minor skill for a PG. See the difference?

I still want to know why OJ Mayo is better equipped to handle the cutthroat western conference than Kevin Love, though.

[Jonathan Watters]

So when I say something sarcastically it is a straw man - when you say something sarcastically it is a joke. Hypocrisy in its truest form.

No the difference is that you actually asked me/shrink to defend the statement as if it was a position we held (this is what a straw man is).

So you were being sarcastic, I was being serious. How can you be so sure that is what I was doing? Why would it be so ridiculous to think that I was making a sarcastic point to illustrate the ridiculousness of your argument? Is that really so unlikely?

I think you telling me my intent in something I posted is a straw man.

And way to respond to the last 2 pages of this thread where you and your argument got absolutely obliterated. That's not a straw man, but it is pretty shameless to ignore it for a week and then attempt to continue a semantics debate...

[john2jer]

I'm gonna have to Wiki the term "straw man" because I was pretty sure that was a reference to the Wizard of Oz.

[Jonathan Watters]

I'm gonna have to Wiki the term "straw man" because I was pretty sure that was a reference to the Wizard of Oz.

It is something to bring up when you know you are wrong but don't want to admit it.

[B Calrissian]

I, on the other hand, was just making fun of you and didn't pretend/think that this was your honest position and ask you to defend it.

You REALLY ARGUED that I had stated passing was the only important skill for a PG. I didn't honestly argue that you thought passing was a minor skill for a PG. See the difference?

To be fair your reason that Telfair is a better pg than Beno and Chalmers was "He's a better passer". Not taking into account shooting, defense, etc.. I don't see how you were being sarcastic or joking. If you wanted to be sarcastic you should have said Telfair is better than Chalmers because Telfair plays lock down defense. Or Telfair is better than Beno because he is a lights out shooter.

I'm gonna have to Wiki the term "straw man" because I was pretty sure that was a reference to the Wizard of Oz.

Yeah I thought they were saying "straw, man". For example.. Rakocevicftw is sinking in quicksand, someone get him a straw, man.

[john2jer]

Clearly Telfair is a better point guard because he was drafted higher.

Now where is the green font?

Although, I don't think Telfair is as bad as some people think, he just needs help around him. Maybe A LOT of help. Bringing up career stats for Telfair is kind of dumb because he's clearly shown an improvement the last two years. Judge him based on what he is now, not 3 years ago while riding the bench in Boston or Portland.

[Worm Guts]

Clearly Telfair is a better point guard because he was drafted higher.

Now where is the green font?

Although, I don't think Telfair is as bad as some people think, he just needs help around him. Maybe A LOT of help. Bringing up career stats for Telfair is kind of dumb because he's clearly shown an improvement the last two years. Judge him based on what he is now, not 3 years ago while riding the bench in Boston or Portland.

????

Statistically, he's nearly the same this year as he's always been.

[Devilzsidewalk]

????

Statistically, he's nearly the same this year as he's always been.

why'd you have to say that, now I had to go to ESPN to see for myself. I was not prepared for that FG%....

[Jonathan Watters]

I really hope you are being sarcastic, Devilz.