The 2016 Off-Season Thread

[shakendfries]

I like Delly alot based on upside...At best, Delly turns out to be a legit starting PG

Matthew Dellavedova is hot trash and only has some semblance of NBA talent because he plays with Lebron. On any other team he'd immediately get sent down to the D-League. Name one thing he can do adequately besides hit open 3s and pass a lob to Lebron after he dribbles into traffic on a drive

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hirkgU0-m2Q[/youtube]

[Paradise]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylernba/status/736963675513315328[/tweet]

[Ror1997]

I think it's really unfair to Lin to just dismiss him as a player because hes been in a lot of tough situations in his career. The Knicks not matching, losing his starting job in Houston, and his time with the Lakers, there's all more to each story but Prok you aren't even bothering to look into it.

Melo had a problem with Lin because he became a huge star during linsanity. Told the Knicks not to resign him.

He signed in Houston to join Kevin Martin in the backcourt. Then right before the season begins, Houston trades Martin for Harden, completely changing their backcourt. Now, Harden is the main ball handler and because he doesn't play good defense, they needed to pair Harden with a defensive specialist. He didn't lose the job, the job changed.

Lakers? Dude, it was the Lakers. Not only was it a bad team, but it was a bad team trying to get Karl Anthony Towns. Lin never had a chance to strive.

In Charlotte he did a good job in a sixth man type role and he can always move back into one for the 17-18 season if we sign a better PG in next year's free agency

[Prokorov]

If you have to overspend, do it with a young player. Dont do it with someone who will be 28 when the season opens.

This, right here... is exactly on point....

If we bring in Lin for backup money, im ok with that. but if we are going to pay him starters money it makes no sense, as he checks off exactly zero boxes:

- he isnt a legit starter or average or above average starter
- he isnt young, where you could look to bank on potential
- he isnt cheap/short term deal, where if he doesnt produce it doesnt matter

there is no upside unless you believe at 28-32 years old he will finally realize potential he has yet to show, and will do so while being on of the top 3 or 4 players on the team.

[Prokorov]

If you have to overspend, do it with a young player. Dont do it with someone who will be 28 when the season opens.

This, right here... is exactly on point....

If we bring in Lin for backup money, im ok with that. but if we are going to pay him starters money it makes no sense, as he checks off exactly zero boxes:

- he isnt a legit starter or average or above average starter
- he isnt young, where you could look to bank on potential
- he isnt cheap/short term deal, where if he doesnt produce it doesnt matter

there is no upside unless you believe at 28-32 years old he will finally realize potential he has yet to show, and will do so while being on of the top 3 or 4 players on the team.

[Prokorov]

I think it's really unfair to Lin to just dismiss him as a player because hes been in a lot of tough situations in his career. The Knicks not matching, losing his starting job in Houston, and his time with the Lakers, there's all more to each story but Prok you aren't even bothering to look into it.

those arent tough situations at all. if he was a legit NBA starter he would have stuck around with one of those teams as a starter.

teams dont let go of low cost starting PGs just because. the guy is a backup. you dont see jeff teague or Geroge Hill riding the bench and being sent to team after team after team. if either of those guys was on the rockets they'd have kept their job and still been there.

there is nothign wrong with Lin not being a good starting NBA point gaurd. he is an excellent backup, and thats a good thing. but he isnt a starter

[KM6]

I think it's really unfair to Lin to just dismiss him as a player because hes been in a lot of tough situations in his career. The Knicks not matching, losing his starting job in Houston, and his time with the Lakers, there's all more to each story but Prok you aren't even bothering to look into it.

those arent tough situations at all. if he was a legit NBA starter he would have stuck around with one of those teams as a starter.

teams dont let go of low cost starting PGs just because. the guy is a backup. you dont see jeff teague or Geroge Hill riding the bench and being sent to team after team after team. if either of those guys was on the rockets they'd have kept their job and still been there.

there is nothign wrong with Lin not being a good starting NBA point gaurd. he is an excellent backup, and thats a good thing. but he isnt a starter

Lin is really a sham, 2 mil per year for him is gross overpay. Let's see how much he gets paid this upcoming free agency. I am sure no sane GM in the league is going to over pay for his service since he is at best a 10th option on any team, playoff caliber or not.

[Ror1997]

I think it's really unfair to Lin to just dismiss him as a player because hes been in a lot of tough situations in his career. The Knicks not matching, losing his starting job in Houston, and his time with the Lakers, there's all more to each story but Prok you aren't even bothering to look into it.

those arent tough situations at all. if he was a legit NBA starter he would have stuck around with one of those teams as a starter.

teams dont let go of low cost starting PGs just because. the guy is a backup. you dont see jeff teague or Geroge Hill riding the bench and being sent to team after team after team. if either of those guys was on the rockets they'd have kept their job and still been there.

there is nothign wrong with Lin not being a good starting NBA point gaurd. he is an excellent backup, and thats a good thing. but he isnt a starter

Once again you're missing the point though. He didn't start but not because of anything HE did. in Houston he was the better player but he wasn't the better fit to Harden. Houston needed a different type of PG (defensive minded, and Beverley ended up making the NBA all defense second team which goes to show Lin never had a chance to Keep the starting job once Harden was in the picture ) . Had the Harden trade hadn't gone down its safe to assume Lin would've kept his starting job.

Getting traded to the Lakers wasn't his fault either. He wouldn't have put himself in that situation. The Lakers didn't want to suceed so they didn't want Lin doing anything special. I forget who said it but just the other day somebody pointed out Lin and Davis would basically get benched for playing well.

Knicks would've kept him as a starter if Melo wasn't a drama queen and if Houston hadn't of backloaded the deal.

Then once he got out of those 2 bad situations where he had no control over how the team used him, he put himself in a great situation in CHA and just played his game. He was never going to start over Kemba.

Its not like this guy is being handed opportunity after opportunity where he keeps falling on his face. Yeah so his resume isn't all that impressive but he has legitimate excuses as to why. But he doesn't use excuses himself, he just adjusts to whatever role he's given and plays hard. That's the guy I want in the locker room, that's the kind of attitude we need to build our culture around. Its

[Teddyb]

If you have to overspend, do it with a young player. Dont do it with someone who will be 28 when the season opens.

This, right here... is exactly on point....

If we bring in Lin for backup money, im ok with that. but if we are going to pay him starters money it makes no sense, as he checks off exactly zero boxes:

- he isnt a legit starter or average or above average starter
- he isnt young, where you could look to bank on potential
- he isnt cheap/short term deal, where if he doesnt produce it doesnt matter

there is no upside unless you believe at 28-32 years old he will finally realize potential he has yet to show, and will do so while being on of the top 3 or 4 players on the team.

the upside is he's better than any PG you have on the roster and theres no one out there.....

[Teddyb]

And Lin will NOT go to the Nets for back up money....not going to happen....NOT
He had a really good year. He's going to get paid or he will stay in Charlotte...They love him in Charlotte...

So the Nets will have a choice, paying him or not getting him....hes better than anyone on the Nets roster at PG....so perhaps he's a starting PG....on the NETS.

[shakendfries]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGI-IEcZ8cI[/youtube]

[Net Sentence]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGI-IEcZ8cI[/youtube]

This is exactly the guy I want. Rondo puts in the work and leads by example.

[Prokorov]

Once again you're missing the point though. He didn't start but not because of anything HE did. in Houston he was the better player but he wasn't the better fit to Harden. Houston needed a different type of PG (defensive minded, and Beverley ended up making the NBA all defense second team which goes to show Lin never had a chance to Keep the starting job once Harden was in the picture ) . Had the Harden trade hadn't gone down its safe to assume Lin would've kept his starting job.

So your telling me if line was the same style player but put up all-star numbers they would still bench him because of "style". come on now. while there is some truth thatt style probably played into it, if you are a legit starting point gaurd you dont lose your job to 'style'. only guys who are borderline starters/backups lose their job in those scenarios. Lin never had a chance of keeping the job because he wasnt a legit starting player,...

Getting traded to the Lakers wasn't his fault either. He wouldn't have put himself in that situation. The Lakers didn't want to suceed so they didn't want Lin doing anything special. I forget who said it but just the other day somebody pointed out Lin and Davis would basically get benched for playing well.

Again, its not about "fault". no one is blaming lin for not being some good starting point gaurd, but the fact of the matter is he simply wasnt good enough to keep the starting job or to stick around long enough to win it. this "lin was so good he would ruin their tank plans" stuff is kind of lunacy and not supported by RAPM/RPM.

Knicks would've kept him as a starter if Melo wasn't a drama queen and if Houston hadn't of backloaded the deal.

Again, if he was good enough, they wold have figured out a way to make it work

Then once he got out of those 2 bad situations where he had no control over how the team used him, he put himself in a great situation in CHA and just played his game. He was never going to start over Kemba.

first, you ALWAYS have a say in the way the team uses you, if you starting playing great basketball you will always find court time. even ona tanking team, they'd keep you on the floor to become a trade asset at the least

Its not like this guy is being handed opportunity after opportunity where he keeps falling on his face. Yeah so his resume isn't all that impressive but he has legitimate excuses as to why. But he doesn't use excuses himself, he just adjusts to whatever role he's given and plays hard. That's the guy I want in the locker room, that's the kind of attitude we need to build our culture around. Its

actually, he HAS had several opportunities... the guy has been on 5 teams already, and 3 of those teams had no starting point gaurd to really compete with him for a job. its not like every stop he has been stuck behind some allstar in his prime.

also him "not using excuses" and "playing hard" is irrelevant, since no one is knocking him from that standpoint. it is what makes him a great backup. he can be in that role and not make a stink about it. thats a guy i want in my locker room too, just not as a starter.

[Prokorov]

the upside is he's better than any PG you have on the roster

So is 90% of the rest of the league, that isnt saying much,

and theres no one out there.....

sure there is. tons of options..

expensive FA's:
Conley
Rondo

middle of the pack FA's:
Jennings
Ty Lawson

inexpensive FA's:
Augistin
Ish Smith
Chalmers
Grevis Vazques



Some of those options i like better then others, but this "there is no other option" thing is complely inaccurate. even if you dismiss that top tier, those other 6 guys all have just as much if not more experience as starters with just as much if not more success who are the same age or younger then Lin.

[Prokorov]

And Lin will NOT go to the Nets for back up money....not going to happen....NOT
He had a really good year. He's going to get paid or he will stay in Charlotte...They love him in Charlotte...

So the Nets will have a choice, paying him or not getting him....hes better than anyone on the Nets roster at PG....so perhaps he's a starting PG....on the NETS.

then we dont get him. he isnt some prize and there are plenty of similar guys who we can get to take backup money. I'd actually perfer grevis or augistin or chalmers.

and again, everyone is better then what the nets have on the roster. thats not a reason to throw starter money at a backup, if we wanted to start a backup we already have jack under contract on the cheap

[Zachbretton]

the upside is he's better than any PG you have on the roster

So is 90% of the rest of the league, that isnt saying much,

and theres no one out there.....

sure there is. tons of options..

expensive FA's:
Conley
Rondo

middle of the pack FA's:
Jennings
Ty Lawson

inexpensive FA's:
Augistin
Ish Smith
Chalmers
Grevis Vazques



Some of those options i like better then others, but this "there is no other option" thing is complely inaccurate. even if you dismiss that top tier, those other 6 guys all have just as much if not more experience as starters with just as much if not more success who are the same age or younger then Lin.

Though I normally agree with you, looking at that list, it makes Lin an even stronger case to sign. He's not going to blow anyone's brain, but I'd feel happy having him come and start and know you'll get a 16/6 guy out of him no problem. Run solid pick and roll, also be a positive character on the floor and in the locker room, and not disappear like DWill.

expensive FA's:
Conley (true, I'd take him over Lin, no question)
Rondo (amazing floor general, huge chemistry issues, no matter what you think of him, he's still my 1B alongside Lin)

middle of the pack FA's:
Jennings (coming off an injury and no idea if he can be a starter, let alone solid bench player)
Ty Lawson (HUGE issues with drinking, dui's and chemistry. Hasn't shown much of anything out of Denver except a few shines in Indiana)

inexpensive FA's:
Augistin (sure, but he's not better than Lin, so if he's coming for 4-5 million, sure)
Ish Smith (again, not as good as Lin, has had trouble staying on rosters until now, so he's a bit of a chance)
Chalmers (injury, no idea what level he can play at)
Grevis Vazques (as in the guy universally hated by both franchises that just had him as a back up?)

When you look at that list, and notice that if we can't get Conley, or (for some people) Rondo, then going after Lin seems like the smartest bet when you know how few assets we have to trade for a PG.

We either try and buy low on a gamble, or pay for a sure thing. Lin maybe not be a high level player, but he could come in and start, no issue. Elevate our team over last season, possibly have another good year under Atkinson, and finally give us stability in our PG slot. I say that's worth 10 million. If by some grace we can land and even better PG in 2017, we either trade him or he moves to a 6th man role we've already seen him excel at.

I'll take our chances at trying to focus on getting this team back on a track. Having a sense of consistency at the PG slot can go a long way, and Lin can give us that.

And in response to your comments about Lin vs. JJack. Yes Jack is 5 million, but he's also on the wrong side of 30 coming off an ACL tear. No well in hell has producing at the same level of Lin, at 28 for 10 million. If a post ACL tear Jack is our starter next season, this franchise would look even more like a joke than it does now. That's not an honest path, unless we want another throw away year, and that's not what Marks has been preaching. He's looking to make smart, but simple steps, and id imagine it starts with fixing the PG position even a bit.


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[spaceballer]

Steve Kyler's response to a Nets fan

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/737270559713660928[/tweet]
https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/737270559713660928

People are still stuck with the old cap in their minds, and don't appreciate how salary expectations need to be adjusted with the cap going up.

Guys like Batum and DeRozan are going to be paid more this summer than guys like Melo or CP3 or Westbrook locked into old cap contracts. We're heading to a $108M cap in a year, and probably even higher in following years. People need to adjust expectations upwards, not still with the mindset of a $58M cap like the NBA had been stable at for a stretch of so many years. People still aren't used to adjusting their mindset and expectations for large cap jumps, since the NBA went through a stretch of stable cap years with no or little increase.

[tonman]

I think it's really unfair to Lin to just dismiss him as a player because hes been in a lot of tough situations in his career. The Knicks not matching, losing his starting job in Houston, and his time with the Lakers, there's all more to each story but Prok you aren't even bothering to look into it.

those arent tough situations at all. if he was a legit NBA starter he would have stuck around with one of those teams as a starter.

teams dont let go of low cost starting PGs just because. the guy is a backup. you dont see jeff teague or Geroge Hill riding the bench and being sent to team after team after team. if either of those guys was on the rockets they'd have kept their job and still been there.

there is nothign wrong with Lin not being a good starting NBA point gaurd. he is an excellent backup, and thats a good thing. but he isnt a starter

Every heard of ty lawson?

[Prokorov]

Though I normally agree with you, looking at that list, it makes Lin an even stronger case to sign. He's not going to blow anyone's brain, but I'd feel happy having him come and start and know you'll get a 16/6 guy out of him no problem. Run solid pick and roll, also be a positive character on the floor and in the locker room, and not disappear like DWill.

do you know you'll get that? he has never posted that, even during his linsanity run with the knicks and time starting in houston. and are you sure you couldnt get the same production from augustin or those other guys? augustin has done everything in this league that lin has, and shot it better at the same time. those other names i mentioned arent far inferior to lin, and arguably arent inferior at all.

middle of the pack FA's:
Jennings (coming off an injury and no idea if he can be a starter, let alone solid bench player)

id rather roll the dice on jennings on a 1 year deal and hope he can return to being a starter then roll the dice on lin making a big jump at 28 years old.

Ty Lawson (HUGE issues with drinking, dui's and chemistry. Hasn't shown much of anything out of Denver except a few shines in Indiana)

true, as mentioned im not in on all these options, the point is, there ARE other options.

inexpensive FA's:
Augistin (sure, but he's not better than Lin, so if he's coming for 4-5 million, sure)
Ish Smith (again, not as good as Lin, has had trouble staying on rosters until now, so he's a bit of a chance)
Chalmers (injury, no idea what level he can play at)
Grevis Vazques (as in the guy universally hated by both franchises that just had him as a back up?)

i dont know why you dismiss augustin as not being better then Lin. he is certainly on par and you could argue statistically he is better.

all of these guys have issues that you pointed out.... but so does lin! thats the point. why give lin 10-12 million when those other guys you could get cheaper and who are in that same class

We either try and buy low on a gamble, or pay for a sure thing. Lin maybe not be a high level player, but he could come in and start, no issue. Elevate our team over last season, possibly have another good year under Atkinson, and finally give us stability in our PG slot. I say that's worth 10 million. If by some grace we can land and even better PG in 2017, we either trade him or he moves to a 6th man role we've already seen him excel at.

i dont view lin as anything even remotely close to a sure thing, unless its as a solid backup

[Prokorov]

Steve Kyler's response to a Nets fan

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/737270559713660928[/tweet]
https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/737270559713660928

People are still stuck with the old cap in their minds, and don't appreciate how salary expectations need to be adjusted with the cap going up.

Guys like Batum and DeRozan are going to be paid more this summer than guys like Melo or CP3 or Westbrook locked into old cap contracts. We're heading to a $108M cap in a year, and probably even higher in following years. People need to adjust expectations upwards, not still with the mindset of a $58M cap like the NBA had been stable at for a stretch of so many years. People still aren't used to adjusting their mindset and expectations for large cap jumps, since the NBA went through a stretch of stable cap years with no or little increase.

everyone knows the cap is going up and salaries will be adjusted on that same scale. that doesnt mean its smart to invest a large portion of your cap into marginal players and backups. im sure those guys will get that. i just dont want to be the one who gives it to them. backups, under the new cap, should make 4-8 million depending on their level of talent and production. starters will get 10-16 million on the lower end of the spectrum. regardless of who gets what i dont want to pay backups starter money.

im a very hard pass on Lin at 12 million (and a buyer as a backup at 6-8M)
im going to pass on bazemore too, he is a starter for sure, but i really doubt his production when he isnt on such a good team and he was really just bogs without the awful defense last year. id prefer bogs at 3.5 then bazemore at 15

i realize our options are limited, but i would use that as a good reason to throw that kind of money at marginal players. lin + bazemore if we did that would represent like 28% of our total cap. fournier is a guy id certainly be happy paying.

i dont think the solution to "our options are limited in free agency" is just take what we can get at whatever it costs.... id rather roll the money over, get guys on 1 year deals where they can prove their worth or walk, or explore the trade market.