ImageImageImageImageImage

The Official Lin Net Thread II

Moderators: jerseyjac, Rich Rane, NyCeEvO

User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 20,825
And1: 5,387
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1241 » by Prokorov » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:50 am

tonman wrote:Your foundation is what you choose it to be. You can sit there and whine that the Nets are a 20 win team or see if there is a way to build upon what is working. Just because there are some young talent doesn't mean there is fit. You need to establish a system which is why I am partial to jolding mm on to brook and lin. Build on that. You have Levert. Yes the future of this team is on the roster but what is that future? The wolves have youngsters growing up for severas years and no playoffs. And now that they have some prime comoments are they going to bring in a superstar or someone who complements them?


No one is whining, im just pointing out the reality.... if you build the foundation of a house on straw it wont be long before the house blows over... same here you dont build a foundation of a team on role players and dleaguers and 4th tier players. Is there a path to get better? of course there is... and we are thankfully patiently heading down that path with marks in no rush to add talent if its just more role guys who max us out as a 25-35 win team (words right from marks mouth).

The Nets have cap room so they can buy a piece or two and still add free agents when the youngsters grow up. You saying you don't want millsap? Let's say they improve and win 30 next season. I don't see an elite player potential on this team. Maybe levert but right now he's letting the game come to him so it's going to be awhile before he gets there. Maybe someone in the draft. My point is getting folks that fits KA system, improve, make the Nets a destination, build with both youth and the right free agents. You have to be able to do a little of everything and not liMIT yourself to draft or free agents.


id be happy for sure with milsap but id be happier with another year of development. glad to hear marks say that it takes patience and we may need to wait another 2 years and see where levert/RHJ are before we try and go get after it.

As for "the run", what is KA talking about? Run at free agents okay but you bring in the wrong free agent then you still shoot yourself in the foot. No one is saying go for the grand slam, but if someone hangs a curve, you got to go for it.


eventually we need to bring in 1-2 guys who are better then lopez. we will never succeed with lopez as our best player. and its best to movoe away from lopez sooner rather then later and find a replacement who can play defense and rebound. if it takes 5 or 6 years to get tot he destination then thats what it takes.... like marks says you do it the wrong way an you are right back to being bad in 1-2 years
User avatar
2k15
Senior
Posts: 749
And1: 152
Joined: Dec 21, 2015
Location: NYC
   

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1242 » by 2k15 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:43 pm

I appreciate the feedback. I generally agree. I just think we can be contending for a playoff spot as early as next year. Far off from contending for a chip, but I am optimistic that we're going to be pretty fun to watch next year.

I guess I also think all the talk about ditching players to win a chip is a bit too cold and calculating. Take Lopez for example - he's one of your best players in history. Folks are too quick to dump him for picks. Loyalty count for anything? I stopped watching NFL largely because players turnover too quickly and I can't really develop an emotional rapport with the team.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 20,825
And1: 5,387
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1243 » by Prokorov » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:07 pm

2k15 wrote:I appreciate the feedback. I generally agree. I just think we can be contending for a playoff spot as early as next year. Far off from contending for a chip, but I am optimistic that we're going to be pretty fun to watch next year.

I guess I also think all the talk about ditching players to win a chip is a bit too cold and calculating. Take Lopez for example - he's one of your best players in history. Folks are too quick to dump him for picks. Loyalty count for anything? I stopped watching NFL largely because players turnover too quickly and I can't really develop an emotional rapport with the team.



-Lopez isnt "one of our best players in history" he just holds alot of records because he has played the most games/took the most shots/played the most seasons... but he isnt top 10 in points per page in net history for instanced.

-also, "ditching" lopez isnt to win a championship, its to win in general. our ceiling with him isnt very high and he holds back what we can do because he is such a poor defender, rebounder, and we'd be better off with gaurds and forwards providing the scoring like most good teams.

Lopez has been here almost 10 years and its been mostly losing... lots of losing... 60, 70 loss seasons. and our best year with him on the team was the year he didnt play because of injury. I'm all for keeping Levert, RHJ, Dinwiddie, Whitehead, Harris, Lin.... but brook needs to go. that money can be invested in better long term pieces.
playteamball
Senior
Posts: 518
And1: 38
Joined: Dec 29, 2011

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1244 » by playteamball » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:21 pm

Paradise wrote:I think fans need to understand tiers.

Tier 1 (Superstar): Curry, Paul, Wall, Irving, etc.
Tier 2 (All-star): Thomas, Lowry, etc.
Tier 3 (Stars): Lillard, Conley, Teague, etc.
Tier 4 (borderline star): Bledsoe, Dragic, Walker, Holiday, Lin, etc.

Nothing wrong with him being in a 3rd or 4th tier. He's a star based off his likability, his marketability, and his ability to close games and play hard. I don't think we need to overrate his upside to validate him as a star or winning player.

He's capable of averaging 17/5/3 in this offense and if he played atleast 30 more games. He's not going to average more than that with Lopez/LeVert needing shots. He's likely to average a career high in assists than points. He simply needs to stay at a consistent steady rate of 15-17 PPG, 7 assists, 3 rebounds and make atleast 2 threes per game and that will drastically change our win total.



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app



I like this list and agree except I'd move Wall to Tier 2 and Teague to Tier 4. I also think Lin will move/prove to be in Tier 3 and possibly Tier 2 if he remains healthy, but that will be tough unless he modifies his style of play to take fewer big hits. I could see merging Tiers 2 and 3 as well as they are all close.
Hank7
Junior
Posts: 275
And1: 28
Joined: Nov 06, 2013
     

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1245 » by Hank7 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:22 pm

I think Lillard and Conley are better than Lowry. I think they're 2's and Lowry 2.5....Teague belongs in tier 4. Lin's a solid 4.
bws94
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,898
And1: 706
Joined: Jan 08, 2014

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1246 » by bws94 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:54 pm

Hank7 wrote:I think Lillard and Conley are better than Lowrey. I think they're 2's and Lowrey 2.5....Teague belongs in tier 4. Lin's a solid 4.


Lowry's hard to place. There are times he's as good as Lillard and Conley, but I feel in the playoffs he's hot or cold, hit or miss, much more than Lillard and Conley who are more consistent. But, Lillard's D isn't on the level of Conley or Lowry's.
tonman
Senior
Posts: 512
And1: 107
Joined: Feb 17, 2009
       

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1247 » by tonman » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:07 pm

Prokorov wrote:
2k15 wrote:I appreciate the feedback. I generally agree. I just think we can be contending for a playoff spot as early as next year. Far off from contending for a chip, but I am optimistic that we're going to be pretty fun to watch next year.

I guess I also think all the talk about ditching players to win a chip is a bit too cold and calculating. Take Lopez for example - he's one of your best players in history. Folks are too quick to dump him for picks. Loyalty count for anything? I stopped watching NFL largely because players turnover too quickly and I can't really develop an emotional rapport with the team.



-Lopez isnt "one of our best players in history" he just holds alot of records because he has played the most games/took the most shots/played the most seasons... but he isnt top 10 in points per page in net history for instanced.

-also, "ditching" lopez isnt to win a championship, its to win in general. our ceiling with him isnt very high and he holds back what we can do because he is such a poor defender, rebounder, and we'd be better off with gaurds and forwards providing the scoring like most good teams.

Lopez has been here almost 10 years and its been mostly losing... lots of losing... 60, 70 loss seasons. and our best year with him on the team was the year he didnt play because of injury. I'm all for keeping Levert, RHJ, Dinwiddie, Whitehead, Harris, Lin.... but brook needs to go. that money can be invested in better long term pieces.


I don't have a problem with trading lopez, I just don't see a big man on this team besides lopez that is starter level. to me RHJ is undersized and I believe even you have said he should come off the bench (if I am mistaken, I apologize). I don't think booker is a solution though he is fine off the bench also. so therefore at this point, we have zero big men for the future. I'm not going to discuss Nicholson or Acy at this point.

Unless you're a superstar, you are going to have flaws. thus it's up to the team to hide those flaws. bring in a good rebounder to play alongside brook. our guards are good rebounders. bring in a rim protector at the 4. if brook is a stretch 5, there's no need to have a stretch 4 also. would be nice but can't have everything. I would look for a young 4/5 rim protector/rebounder and if the other team goes small, bring in RHJ or booker at the 4.

again, I don't think brook is a #1 option on this team but until we find the #1 option, he's it. if he's #2, I think we'll be fine. let's bring in a wing and a 4/5 guy. I agree, there's no need to rush to overpay someone who's available in a "need" position and there's always the possibility of drafting the next superstar, but as currently constructed, there is a path forward to getting better.

now if you trade lopez and go the young role, there is no path until you see what you have ala the sixers...and they're dealing with top 3 picks. nets don't have that option.

the goal for this offseason is to bring in one major FA at one of the two positions of need. this will show that the nets can be a destination. this along with improving next season should allow for additional moves. if those moves gets brook moved for a high draft pick, fine. but that is done with knowledge of how the team is constructed and not just a firesale trying to get picks to draft players that may or may not work out.
hood30
Pro Prospect
Posts: 866
And1: 172
Joined: Nov 30, 2015

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1248 » by hood30 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:44 pm

tonman wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
2k15 wrote:I appreciate the feedback. I generally agree. I just think we can be contending for a playoff spot as early as next year. Far off from contending for a chip, but I am optimistic that we're going to be pretty fun to watch next year.

I guess I also think all the talk about ditching players to win a chip is a bit too cold and calculating. Take Lopez for example - he's one of your best players in history. Folks are too quick to dump him for picks. Loyalty count for anything? I stopped watching NFL largely because players turnover too quickly and I can't really develop an emotional rapport with the team.



-Lopez isnt "one of our best players in history" he just holds alot of records because he has played the most games/took the most shots/played the most seasons... but he isnt top 10 in points per page in net history for instanced.

-also, "ditching" lopez isnt to win a championship, its to win in general. our ceiling with him isnt very high and he holds back what we can do because he is such a poor defender, rebounder, and we'd be better off with gaurds and forwards providing the scoring like most good teams.

Lopez has been here almost 10 years and its been mostly losing... lots of losing... 60, 70 loss seasons. and our best year with him on the team was the year he didnt play because of injury. I'm all for keeping Levert, RHJ, Dinwiddie, Whitehead, Harris, Lin.... but brook needs to go. that money can be invested in better long term pieces.


I don't have a problem with trading lopez, I just don't see a big man on this team besides lopez that is starter level. to me RHJ is undersized and I believe even you have said he should come off the bench (if I am mistaken, I apologize). I don't think booker is a solution though he is fine off the bench also. so therefore at this point, we have zero big men for the future. I'm not going to discuss Nicholson or Acy at this point.

Unless you're a superstar, you are going to have flaws. thus it's up to the team to hide those flaws. bring in a good rebounder to play alongside brook. our guards are good rebounders. bring in a rim protector at the 4. if brook is a stretch 5, there's no need to have a stretch 4 also. would be nice but can't have everything. I would look for a young 4/5 rim protector/rebounder and if the other team goes small, bring in RHJ or booker at the 4.

again, I don't think brook is a #1 option on this team but until we find the #1 option, he's it. if he's #2, I think we'll be fine. let's bring in a wing and a 4/5 guy. I agree, there's no need to rush to overpay someone who's available in a "need" position and there's always the possibility of drafting the next superstar, but as currently constructed, there is a path forward to getting better.

now if you trade lopez and go the young role, there is no path until you see what you have ala the sixers...and they're dealing with top 3 picks. nets don't have that option.

the goal for this offseason is to bring in one major FA at one of the two positions of need. this will show that the nets can be a destination. this along with improving next season should allow for additional moves. if those moves gets brook moved for a high draft pick, fine. but that is done with knowledge of how the team is constructed and not just a firesale trying to get picks to draft players that may or may not work out.


Totally agree with this...Brooklyn should be in no hurry to trade Lopez unless they can retrieve a top 10 draft pick or a young prospect with very good potential.

Prokorov entire premise that removing Lopez would automatically make the Nets better is wrong since he seemed to ignore Lopez natural scoring ability + his 3ball which allows Brooklyn to pull rim-protecting centers out of the paint.....this effect makes it easy for Lin to drive into the lane with no rim protection in the paint area.

When Lin got back in the starting line-up, they played pretty well and this gives us a hint that Lopez was never the biggest reason why Nets kept on losing this year...I don't buy the defense argument and I believe whatever you lose on defense with Lopez, you gain on offense...That's the way I see it.

Depending on who you get to replace Lopez, Brooklyn may get a bit better at PnR defense, but Brooklyn loses a lot on offense and the ability to stretch the floor with a stretch-5 which I believe is much more valuable than a stretch-4


Also, I don't believe Noel replacing Brook makes Brooklyn better since he's no where close to Brook as a scorer and he's not that much of a rim protecting center...Matterfact, Mavs's fan haven't been impressed by him at all....Always felt he was way too skinny to play center and from what I've heard, many Mavs fan are also wondering whether he's big enough to bang with the physical center in this league since many of them had a field day against him as a Maverick....Even Brook Lopez abused Noel when Brooklyn played Mavs, so I'd think twice replacing Lopez with Noel.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 20,825
And1: 5,387
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1249 » by Prokorov » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:16 am

tonman wrote:I don't have a problem with trading lopez, I just don't see a big man on this team besides lopez that is starter level. to me RHJ is undersized and I believe even you have said he should come off the bench (if I am mistaken, I apologize). I don't think booker is a solution though he is fine off the bench also. so therefore at this point, we have zero big men for the future. I'm not going to discuss Nicholson or Acy at this point.


i dont see how that is really a concern. i mean where a term of role/bench guys. we needed to added starting talent either way. plus its not about next year, its about the long term picture. draft a big, sign a big and build from there

Unless you're a superstar, you are going to have flaws. thus it's up to the team to hide those flaws. bring in a good rebounder to play alongside brook. our guards are good rebounders. bring in a rim protector at the 4. if brook is a stretch 5, there's no need to have a stretch 4 also. would be nice but can't have everything. I would look for a young 4/5 rim protector/rebounder and if the other team goes small, bring in RHJ or booker at the 4.


You cant hide bad pick and roll defense from your center. once that fails everything falls apart

again, I don't think brook is a #1 option on this team but until we find the #1 option, he's it. if he's #2, I think we'll be fine. let's bring in a wing and a 4/5 guy. I agree, there's no need to rush to overpay someone who's available in a "need" position and there's always the possibility of drafting the next superstar, but as currently constructed, there is a path forward to getting better.


His D is the issue not his offense.

now if you trade lopez and go the young role, there is no path until you see what you have ala the sixers...and they're dealing with top 3 picks. nets don't have that option.


sure they do. it will just take longer.

the goal for this offseason is to bring in one major FA at one of the two positions of need. this will show that the nets can be a destination. this along with improving next season should allow for additional moves. if those moves gets brook moved for a high draft pick, fine. but that is done with knowledge of how the team is constructed and not just a firesale trying to get picks to draft players that may or may not work out.


no, it isnt... its to develop the young kids for another year. as marks said, in two years they can go after it
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 20,825
And1: 5,387
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1250 » by Prokorov » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:19 am

hood30 wrote:[

Depending on who you get to replace Lopez, Brooklyn may get a bit better at PnR defense, but Brooklyn loses a lot on offense and [b]the ability to stretch the floor with a stretch-5 which I believe is much more valuable than a stretch-4


its not a bit better in the pick and roll... its an enormous monumental upgrade. going from arguably the worst pick and roll defending big among starters to even a bad pick and roll defender is an upgrade. not to mention a center who could switch an hold his own.

19 points isnt tough to make up for and ideally you prefer scoring from wings and forwards anyhow.

Lopez is holding us back. it isnt all on him, this team has no talent, but he will always hold us back defensively
hood30
Pro Prospect
Posts: 866
And1: 172
Joined: Nov 30, 2015

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1251 » by hood30 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:57 am

Prokorov wrote:
hood30 wrote:[

Depending on who you get to replace Lopez, Brooklyn may get a bit better at PnR defense, but Brooklyn loses a lot on offense and [b]the ability to stretch the floor with a stretch-5 which I believe is much more valuable than a stretch-4


its not a bit better in the pick and roll... its an enormous monumental upgrade. going from arguably the worst pick and roll defending big among starters to even a bad pick and roll defender is an upgrade. not to mention a center who could switch an hold his own.

19 points isnt tough to make up for and ideally you prefer scoring from wings and forwards anyhow.

Lopez is holding us back. it isnt all on him, this team has no talent, but he will always hold us back defensively


As I stated, when Lin came back, Brooklyn was much more competitive and Lopez's offense canceled out whatever you feel he's not given you on the PnR defense........So the second half of the season demonstrated to all of us you can win with Lopez if you give him a good PG and add a few NBA level players around him.

Marks should look to team Lopez with a physical rebounding PF who is not undersized...A guy like Ed Davis would be great alongside Lopez + Davis could be a great PnR partner for Lin who had great chemistry with Lin with the Lakers.
Vae Victus
Pro Prospect
Posts: 956
And1: 279
Joined: Jun 09, 2013

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1252 » by Vae Victus » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:29 am

Ed Davis is actually kinda like a Poor Man's Noel.

Incredibly skinny so is easily pushed around, but a solid off ball rim protector. Basic offensive game (actually is much better than Noel down low) that excels in the PnR, has incredible finishing ability. On a dirt cheap deal with 1 year left. He's actually the perfect backup for BroLo and can at times play with him by being the rim runner PnR partner for Lin, while BroLo spots up.

They played together with the LAL and had instant chemistry. Their PnR was utterly deadly, either Lin got a layup, Davis got a easy layup, or Lin bricks his layup but drew both defenders and Davis get an easy putback. Byron "TankMasts" Scott put an end to that **** quick.

Only way i can see BRK getting Davis is as a throw in with Crabbe to ditch more salary. Basically a Plan C option IMO, to go for after whiffing on Porter and other better options.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 20,825
And1: 5,387
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1253 » by Prokorov » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:12 am

hood30 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
hood30 wrote:[

Depending on who you get to replace Lopez, Brooklyn may get a bit better at PnR defense, but Brooklyn loses a lot on offense and [b]the ability to stretch the floor with a stretch-5 which I believe is much more valuable than a stretch-4


its not a bit better in the pick and roll... its an enormous monumental upgrade. going from arguably the worst pick and roll defending big among starters to even a bad pick and roll defender is an upgrade. not to mention a center who could switch an hold his own.

19 points isnt tough to make up for and ideally you prefer scoring from wings and forwards anyhow.

Lopez is holding us back. it isnt all on him, this team has no talent, but he will always hold us back defensively


As I stated, when Lin came back, Brooklyn was much more competitive and Lopez's offense canceled out whatever you feel he's not given you on the PnR defense........So the second half of the season demonstrated to all of us you can win with Lopez if you give him a good PG and add a few NBA level players around him.

Marks should look to team Lopez with a physical rebounding PF who is not undersized...A guy like Ed Davis would be great alongside Lopez + Davis could be a great PnR partner for Lin who had great chemistry with Lin with the Lakers.


We did play much better. but we were still a losing team reacord wise. and you can win games with lopez, you just have a very low ceiling of a low playoff seed that is likely to get bounced in the first round. better playoff teams will take advantage of it especially in a 7 game series wher ethey gameplan for you. Its not like we went 20-5 post allstar break or something. look at the difference in the bucks for instance once they benched monroe (lopez -light but similar) for thon maker. they finished 17-5.

We've paired lopez with rebounder in the past... kris humhries, reggie evans, KG... it doesnt really work out. it all comes down to pick and rorll defense and switching....

-if the opponent puts lopez in a pick and roll, there is nothing the PF can do to help
-if a team has a stretch big, that PF wont be in position to help renound

there is only 1 way around these issue. bring in a new center. maybe we draft him groom him this year and let lopez walk. thats an option. but we will never really be more a first round out with lopez on the team

i like ed davis too, and id be fine with him replacing lopez
User avatar
MrDollarBills
RealGM
Posts: 13,960
And1: 3,664
Joined: Feb 15, 2008
     

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1254 » by MrDollarBills » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:37 pm

i don't think we're bringing in any big names free agency wise.
My Hopeful Nets Offseason Plan: DON'T SPEND A DAMN DIME :vent: :vent: :vent:
hood30
Pro Prospect
Posts: 866
And1: 172
Joined: Nov 30, 2015

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1255 » by hood30 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:19 pm

Prokorov wrote:
hood30 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
its not a bit better in the pick and roll... its an enormous monumental upgrade. going from arguably the worst pick and roll defending big among starters to even a bad pick and roll defender is an upgrade. not to mention a center who could switch an hold his own.

19 points isnt tough to make up for and ideally you prefer scoring from wings and forwards anyhow.

Lopez is holding us back. it isnt all on him, this team has no talent, but he will always hold us back defensively


As I stated, when Lin came back, Brooklyn was much more competitive and Lopez's offense canceled out whatever you feel he's not given you on the PnR defense........So the second half of the season demonstrated to all of us you can win with Lopez if you give him a good PG and add a few NBA level players around him.

Marks should look to team Lopez with a physical rebounding PF who is not undersized...A guy like Ed Davis would be great alongside Lopez + Davis could be a great PnR partner for Lin who had great chemistry with Lin with the Lakers.


We did play much better. but we were still a losing team reacord wise. and you can win games with lopez, you just have a very low ceiling of a low playoff seed that is likely to get bounced in the first round. better playoff teams will take advantage of it especially in a 7 game series wher ethey gameplan for you. Its not like we went 20-5 post allstar break or something. look at the difference in the bucks for instance once they benched monroe (lopez -light but similar) for thon maker. they finished 17-5.

We've paired lopez with rebounder in the past... kris humhries, reggie evans, KG... it doesnt really work out. it all comes down to pick and rorll defense and switching....

-if the opponent puts lopez in a pick and roll, there is nothing the PF can do to help
-if a team has a stretch big, that PF wont be in position to help renound

there is only 1 way around these issue. bring in a new center. maybe we draft him groom him this year and let lopez walk. thats an option. but we will never really be more a first round out with lopez on the team

i like ed davis too, and id be fine with him replacing lopez



the Bucks have enough scoring, so they can afford to start a rookie like Thon Maker who doesn't give them much on the offense end of the ball at this point.. Giannis and Middleton are both legit 25-20 point scorer, so they really don't need Monroe to start....But Brooklyn can not say the same if they remove Lopez since he's the only one that can consistently give you 20 on a nightly basis.

You remind me of Hornets fan who strongly believed MKG defensive impact alone was much greater than Lin/Lee offensive output..Of course MKG is a good defender(not great) but Hornets got worse this year..You want to know why??..Because MKG couldn't shoot or score enough to replace the scoring they lost by allowing Lin/Lee to leave via free agency

You are grossly over-rating the impact of guys who aren't even elite defenders while under-valuing natural scorers and than forcing yourself to believe anybody that's a bit better than Lopez on PnR defense would improve Brooklyn....This is where I strongly disasgree with your premise....To me, if you're going to get rid of Lopez, you better be sure you would be able to replace his scoring and you simply can not do it with a strict Lopez- for Noel swap.

I can confidently state that this Brooklyn team would not be better this year if Noel was playing center instead of Lopez...It is mind boggling to think so and Noel is not even that good on defense..The gap on the defensive end between Noel and Lopez would have to be massive in which it is not....Noel is no where close to Jordan or Whiteside and only this type of defense at the center position can make you ignore a 20ppg center.
bws94
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,898
And1: 706
Joined: Jan 08, 2014

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1256 » by bws94 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:05 pm

I think hood has a good point. You need an exceptional defensive player to make up for the excellent scoring that Brook brings.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 20,825
And1: 5,387
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1257 » by Prokorov » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:51 am

hood30 wrote:
You are grossly over-rating the impact of guys who aren't even elite defenders while under-valuing natural scorers and than forcing yourself to believe anybody that's a bit better than Lopez on PnR defense would improve Brooklyn....This is where I strongly disasgree with your premise....To me, if you're going to get rid of Lopez, you better be sure you would be able to replace his scoring and you simply can not do it with a strict Lopez- for Noel swap.


His scoring is super easy to replace.,, we arent talking about harden or durant here. its 19 points a game. you find a wing scorer to take Foyes spot an get a couple more points from levert and you've accomplished it.

meanwhile, its not "a bit better" pnr defense. it an enormous difference from completely conceeding pick and rolls having your center sit neat the restricted area and always having your gaurd go over the screen vs. being able to blitz it, trap it, show and recover it, or switch it. the difference on defense is monumental. the offense isnt tough at all to replace.

get 6 to 8 points from your new center, get about 3 points from levert, and find someone to takes foyes starting spot to give you 14 points a game.


I can confidently state that this Brooklyn team would not be better this year if Noel was playing center instead of Lopez...It is mind boggling to think so and Noel is not even that good on defense..The gap on the defensive end between Noel and Lopez would have to be massive in which it is not....Noel is no where close to Jordan or Whiteside and only this type of defense at the center position can make you ignore a 20ppg center.


it would be enormous. its not that noel is anything great. its that lopez is as bad as it gets in pick and rolls and switching. we DONT EVEN ATTEMPT to switch or trap or blitz or show and recover. there are tons of strategies that are just out the window. with noel you can do more and from a TEAM defensive perspective it makes an enormous difference

we would be 5-10 wins better with noel (or anyone capable of those things)
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 20,825
And1: 5,387
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1258 » by Prokorov » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:52 am

bws94 wrote:I think hood has a good point. You need an exceptional defensive player to make up for the excellent scoring that Brook brings.


No you dont. 19 points per game is easy to patch together.

the defensive impact is like 10 times that impact if not more. again its not just talent level on defense, there are legit like a half dozens stratagies all the best defensive teams use that are out the window because lopez isnt capable so we dont even attempt it.
hood30
Pro Prospect
Posts: 866
And1: 172
Joined: Nov 30, 2015

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1259 » by hood30 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:42 am

Prokorov wrote:
hood30 wrote:
You are grossly over-rating the impact of guys who aren't even elite defenders while under-valuing natural scorers and than forcing yourself to believe anybody that's a bit better than Lopez on PnR defense would improve Brooklyn....This is where I strongly disasgree with your premise....To me, if you're going to get rid of Lopez, you better be sure you would be able to replace his scoring and you simply can not do it with a strict Lopez- for Noel swap.


His scoring is super easy to replace.,, we arent talking about harden or durant here. its 19 points a game. you find a wing scorer to take Foyes spot an get a couple more points from levert and you've accomplished it.

meanwhile, its not "a bit better" pnr defense. it an enormous difference from completely conceeding pick and rolls having your center sit neat the restricted area and always having your gaurd go over the screen vs. being able to blitz it, trap it, show and recover it, or switch it. the difference on defense is monumental. the offense isnt tough at all to replace.

get 6 to 8 points from your new center, get about 3 points from levert, and find someone to takes foyes starting spot to give you 14 points a game.


I can confidently state that this Brooklyn team would not be better this year if Noel was playing center instead of Lopez...It is mind boggling to think so and Noel is not even that good on defense..The gap on the defensive end between Noel and Lopez would have to be massive in which it is not....Noel is no where close to Jordan or Whiteside and only this type of defense at the center position can make you ignore a 20ppg center.


it would be enormous. its not that noel is anything great. its that lopez is as bad as it gets in pick and rolls and switching. we DONT EVEN ATTEMPT to switch or trap or blitz or show and recover. there are tons of strategies that are just out the window. with noel you can do more and from a TEAM defensive perspective it makes an enormous difference

we would be 5-10 wins better with noel (or anyone capable of those things)


keep in mind Lopez averaged 20.5ppg while playing without a real PG for 2/3 of the season...A fully healthy Lin would heighten Lopez's stats.....Unless you can get 2 good free agent, It will be extremely hard to replace Lopez's scoring.

Brooklyn went 0-7 when Lopez rested and gave up more points while scoring much less as oppose to when he's on the floor...

If your claim is true that his offense does not make up for his PnR defense, Brooklyn should be much better when he's off the floor..That should had been obvious when watching the games...His scoring does make a huge difference, specially when you take into account his 35% 3pt shooting and his post-up offense.

Unless brooklyn can sign Hill or Milsap, they will be a terrible offensive team next year IF they trade Lopez for a low draft pick...

As much as I love Lin, you shouldn't count on him to consistently give you 20 a night, and LeVert is still a few year away..I don't expect him to score much even next year..maybe 11-13 ppg...So where exactly will the points come from with no #1 option on offense?

Maybe you think the Euro guy Tadostic can score 15ppg..I seriously doubt that..This guy is probably the new Sergio Rodriguez with terrible defense and not much scoring.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 20,825
And1: 5,387
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: The Official Lin Net Thread II 

Post#1260 » by Prokorov » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:37 pm

hood30 wrote:
keep in mind Lopez averaged 20.5ppg while playing without a real PG for 2/3 of the season...A fully healthy Lin would heighten Lopez's stats.....Unless you can get 2 good free agent, It will be extremely hard to replace Lopez's scoring.


His PPG werent any higher with Lin. just like they werent higher when dwill was playing like an allstar. and 20.5 ppg isnt really impressive. again its not like we need to replace the scoring output of a cousins or derozan or thomas.

and again, we need to start shifting that scoring load to our wings soon anyhow. your not gonna win at a high level with your center scoring 20 a game while your wings get you 5ppg and 8ppg. get an extra 15 points from those spots and have your new center give you 4 or 6. thats what you ideally want. I think Levert can get to 12 ppgs next year and if we get a reddick/porter/KCP/whomever they should be able to get 14-15 ppg

Brooklyn went 0-7 when Lopez rested and gave up more points while scoring much less as oppose to when he's on the floor...


when you have a 20 win team and remove ANY starter your going to lose basically every game. we had a what 1-28 stretch without lin?

If your claim is true that his offense does not make up for his PnR defense, Brooklyn should be much better when he's off the floor..That should had been obvious when watching the games...His scoring does make a huge difference, specially when you take into account his 35% 3pt shooting and his post-up offense.


No because hamilton is terrible at PnR defense as well and overall our bigs outside lopez are bench/dleague level. we dont have a long athletic guy who can blitz pick and rolls.... a MUCH better example is when lopez went down and KG mooved to the 5 and we blitz pick and rolls all over the place and had the most success weve seen in brooklyn.

Scoring is meh... easy to replace that on the wings.

[quote[
Unless brooklyn can sign Hill or Milsap, they will be a terrible offensive team next year IF they trade Lopez for a low draft pick...[/quote]

we were a terrible offensive team with lopez this year. and again, it doesnt matter its about development. finding scoring is alot easier then finding a defensive anchor and building the chemistry need to rotate as a team once your big and pg trap a pick and roll.

As much as I love Lin, you shouldn't count on him to consistently give you 20 a night, and LeVert is still a few year away..I don't expect him to score much even next year..maybe 11-13 ppg...So where exactly will the points come from with no #1 option on offense?


We dont need lin to give us 20 and and levert coul easily go from 8 to 12 ppg in year two.

Maybe you think the Euro guy Tadostic can score 15ppg..I seriously doubt that..This guy is probably the new Sergio Rodriguez with terrible defense and not much scoring.


foye gave us a 5 ppg... whoever our new SG is should easily be able to double that.... and when i say new SG i mean longterm SG not short term SG so it doesnt need to be the guy we get this offseason.

People are talking like Lopez is kareem or david robinson scoring 25-30 a night.

Return to Brooklyn Nets