The Lakers with prime Kobe or the Nets with prime KG?

[enetric]

FWIW, I don't rank players by legacy, and I still rank Duncan over KG, but I do agree that it's extremely close (I have Duncan like 7th all time, and KG 10th).

Duncan imo was a better defensive player, a little worse offensively, but I felt there was a bigger gap defensively (not much, just a bigger small gap than the small gap on offense). It's tough, they're pretty much equal across the board.

Where I give Duncan the benefit of the doubt is his playoff performance. He had an extra gear he could go to, and he got even better in the playoffs. KG didn't seem to have that extra gear (still a ridiculously high impact player though). I'm not even talking about winning games, I'm talking about how they individually played.

I just cant give the nod defensively to a guy who did it all with shot blocking+help D and never took on the tough man to man assignments VS. a guy who was not only a great help defender, but the better rebounder and was one of the great man to man defenders we have ever seen. Certainly one of the most versatile ones. More than anything I used to laugh when TD made all D teams so often. I felt it was more on rep. Felt the same way about Kobe who even his coach said...Kobe made those teams on rep. To be fair...same for older Kidd. His help D was exceptional for most of his career but we all saw when he lost his ability to move backwards with any speed and thus had trouble guarding faster guys.

Man to man D is where is starts for me. If you need help guarding your own assignment...if you cant become the stopper in big moments? Well, then I cant give you credit over someone who can. Most if not all those guys play great help D as well. Its like when Piazza fans would try and say...its not that he is a bad defensive catcher...he just cant throw out anyone. ...in reality he is good defensively. Yeah? If the truly good ones can do it ALL on D? Then it should be questioned why you cant. TD was great at what he did...but KG was just an elite NBA defender in his prime ad still is today. I dont recall any point of TD's career where he was taking to tougher defensive assignment for the majority of his minutes. Not with Robinson and not after him. and realize most NBA teams have at least one schlub big man offensively. As in one guy who has hardly any plays run for him.

[enetric]

BTW, Duncan did defend Shaq for a significant amount of time when the Lakers and Spurs played against each other. Robinson was his primary defender, but TD guarded him more than he gets credit for, and he actually did a better job than Robinson.

TD did guard KG and Sheed head to head as well, after Robinson was no longer there.

Just because he didn't have to do something doesn't mean he couldn't. I'm sure if Minnesota had a guy like an older D-Rob, they wouldn't have KG doing literally EVERYTHING and they would probably let D-Rob guard the tough assignment on defense.

Duncan was a much better low post scorer. KG was better from midrange. Comparable defensively (probably take Duncan overall), comparable on the boards (prime vs prime, KG peaked higher, Duncan was more consistent). KG was a better passer (Duncan was a great passer too though)...KG did handle PG duties though and averaged quite a few more assists than Duncan, so I'll give him a decent edge in this department (I might take KG as the greatest passing big man ever).

So they overall seem pretty even in terms of how they impact a game. That's why to me, playoff performance decides it, and Duncan was better than KG in that regard.

He didnt guard the best big the majority of minutes. I used to laugh that KG would guard him then someone else would guard KG. After Robinson they shuffled through their collection of big man to do the job. And Sheed? Which Sheed? Not the Pistons Sheed. Pistons Sheed doing his best Sam Perkins act on offense taking a majority of his fga's from 3 point land? When did you ever seen TD move more the 5 steps in any direction in the half court...lol?

I didnt understand the consistent rebounding point you were making. KG in his prime was absurd rebounding the ball. And again spent more time defensively away from the paint chasing smaller players. He led the league in rebounds 4 years in a row in his prime. TD? Zero. TD was of course also a great rebounder. Just not as good in their primes. Maybe you meant over their careers? Yes, KG has slowed down quite a but rebounding wise in recent years. First it was Doc cutting his minutes...then he simple slowed down. Still a good rebounder per minute average though.

Your argument about couldnt and didnt? Yeah...but I cant give credit to a guy who didnt over a guy who DID. Right? if you are going to make comparisons it has to be on reality. What toll would it have had offensively on him if he couldnt get the rest on D he got? Realized KG didnt have that luxurury and still led his team in rebounds, points and assists. Again...AND ASSISTS.

TD was never not ever the passer KG was. That is not even close. KG was actually a playmaker. TD moved the ball within Pop's system of plays but he was never an elite passer. TD wasnt as good as Shaq among big who started the offense from the blocks. Td was efficient...made the designed play the way he was supposed to but his passing was average. I can think of many big men who were much better passers in the last 25 years.

I absolutely agree TD was better in the low post. No question. And TD had that mid ranged bank shot so I wont sell his mid range game short. He just couldnt put the ball on the floor for more than a couple of dribbles. His face up game ended with that bank shot. KG could take you from anywhere. In fact there was a time he made a decent number of threes to really stretch out the D. Not talking hang out on the wing for open looks like other big men. Talking...work the outside with a guard and create good looks....looking like a 2 guard. We have never had a 7' guy like that in this league. Offensively was MUCH more versatile.

Overall? I am actually more open to TD's offensive value by comparison than I am to the defensive comparison. I think KG moshes him on D because of the man to man argument. Both were great in every other aspect of D but to me that is a glaring difference. The offensive one is a harder argument to make. Is having more weapons better than being unstoppable in one traditional way? I mean Shaq wasnt versatile and he was better than both of them. So to be fair...I can see the argument pro TD on offense even if I favor KG.

What I am saying is...I get how the fundamental aspect of TD's game allow you to design certain specific things on offense. Just a shame KG didnt get to play his prime years with other good players like the all stars and great role guys TD played with or like Shaq did. Had KG had a chance to do that...I think he wold have won many titles and we would have really had a chance to see just how valuable he was. Every once in a while there is a guy who defies logic. A combo of skills in a body that makes no sense.

Magic was the size of a PF but was the greatest G of all time offensively. Defensively he couldnt guard other PG's. Barkley had that...but in reverse. He was a PF that could create like a guard....but was the size of guard so we were more impressed that he could do it over bigger guys. LBJ plays like a point guard and he is the size of a PF but chiseled like Karl Malone or even Dwight. And KG? Well he was a long lanky guy with the standing reach of a center who played like a swingman.

The NBA is all about creating mismatches. And KG was the type of player that if he had other quality players to feed off of him you might have seen more rings. I think the playoff argument is a legacy one. TD on much better TEAMS won more rings. But KG didnt fail or play poorly in the playoffs. His teams were so bad they shouldnt have made the playoffs in a dominant West. We have a bad habit of simply looking at result and not consider expectation. KG got a team that should have been bottom 10 every year into the playoffs every year for 8 straight seasons. Low seed in all but one....and of course failed to advance against higher seeds with home court. Losing those series is what is supposed to happen in the NBA. This isnt MLB or the NFL where wild cards can go all the way. You are not a top 3 seed you arent going anywhere. But his play in the playoffs was fantastic.

Look at the numbers for his last 6 playoffs years in Minny.
pts/reb/ast
19/11/9
21/12/4
24/19/5
27/16/5
24/15/15

Realize that he was the weapon. There was nothing like the players you had to pay attention to in LA or SA around the other two bigs. Do those look like numbers that say lack of execution? His teams were just awful. And I mean....AWFUL.


Its certainly close. Both all time greats. I am partial to special over fundamental.

[enetric]

I dont mind someone picking TD over KG. Legacy makes for a good argument. But that's the most ridiculous break down of KG vs TD I have ever heard. Or rather I should say "extreme" nonsense which clearly I am getting is Drejeronfire's calling card. Just saying something you feel with absolute extremes and doing a crap ass job of backing it up? I mean come on.

TD played on great teams his entire career. They werent just better teams...they were ridiculously better teams. He JOINED that team as a great team.

KG played with the worst supporting cast in the entire NBA and still dragged them to playoffs every year. No joke. That team was a lottery team as bad as the Cavs supporting cast LBJ left behind his first year in Miami through MOST of KG's seasons in Minny. Sure Marbury was a could have been early on but that never had the time to gel or be realized. The best team KG played with might have been one to feature an OLD Cassell and tired Spreewell. And that's just sad. In between KG played with trash.

The Joe Smith fiasco is what went wrong in Minny. Being capped out and being punished to the tune of 5 years worth of draft picks? That team was stuck. it had a bad supporting cast and couldnt sign anyone, couldnt draft anyone and without prospects or contracts had little ability to trade for anyone of merit. Cant over look that detail its of huge importance. No superstar has ever had to overcome so many obstacles in the prime of their career.

KG made everyone on that team better...as awful as they were. You are talking about a 7' PF who led his team in points, rebounds AND assists every year. Consistent 20-10-5 guys? We are talking Bird...and KG. Compare the numbers for TD and KG in their primes. KG was other worldly across the board.

Spurs getting TD? Well, top 50 all NBA player David Robinson missed a year and their 55+ win team won a lottery. A little bit of luck goes a long way in this game.

I dont confuse or forget anything from any era. I am most likely older than you and knew this game well when you were still playing with your Pokemon cards. Acting like you have some sort of better recollection of this era or that one in your posts directed at me? Condescention added to ignorance and a lack of homework is going to start a routine of me pimp slapping you around thread after thread there skippy. Ask around. You do not have the knowledge base to come strong like that at ME. If you are going to speak with authority you better bring more than because "this is my opinion" or I will make you my bitch.

I left you a mountain of info on Kobe from 2004 in that other thread. Feel free to show me that you have any objectivity at all. You make these all encompassing silly statements and do a terrible job of supporting your arguments. And in that thread you werent just wrong...you were off your meds delusional. In this one? Its not picking TD over KG. Many will do that...and its perfectly fine. Its the absurd, laughable way you did it. The EXTREME to what you said and the facts you got totally F-ing wrong.

As for TD and the two way threat...he was no where near the two threat KG was. EVER. He NEVER guarded the other teams best big for primary minutes. He was a weak side shot blocker and great rebounder. Yes excellent help defender but his overall D has always been overstated as that he got his rest on D by guarding the big man who stood there holding towels for men's room most of the time.

KG...guarded the best player on the other team even if it was Tracy McGrady at the top of the key and then he rebounded even MORE than TD did on the same night. KG wasnt as much of a shot blocker...but in their primes KG was an all world do it all player. TD was as his nickname stated...fundamental. He was a classic throw back of what a PF does. And he was great at it. But switch them on each team and the legacy argument of titles removed...we have a different conversation. One was fundamental the other was spectacular. Breaking down their skill sets in their prime?

KG was the more versatile offensive player who could set up and beat you anywhere. In fact...I recall Bill Russell regarded as the greatest defensive big man in history (long before KG was a Celtic) say...that of the three great bigs in the NBA at that time, KG was the one he would have had the hardest time guarding. That his ability to beat you in NON fundamental ways was a weapon the likes of nothing in a big man we had ever seen before.

KG was the better man to man defender by a mile not even close. He was the better rebounder as well.

He was by far the better passer and play maker.

He was the better ft shooter.

As for his offensive versatility...in addition to the low blocks, he could put the ball on the floor and drive past you. He could set up on either wing. He could hit the three.

As for TD's help defense? Yes he was a great help defender and yes he anchored the inside and rarely guarded the other teams best offensive big man as a result. This is why many debated that he was really a center and NOT a PF in his prime. But you know what? its a lot easier to do that when you are playing with one of the NBA's greatest big men of all time in David Robinson. And even as Robinson declined he was a fantastic defender and took on the harder assignment. Anchoring the middle isnt harder when you have a guy like that next to you compared to playing on trash teams where you have to score, be the play maker...then defend against the other team's best offensive threat from Cweb, to Shaq to TD. Then, get on a plane and and defend McGrady and other self creators. KG literaly HAD to do it all.

So you want to say you pick TD over KG...he won titles...look at him fundamentally..so great...etc? No problem. TD is an all time great player. No argument from me.

But you come in with over the top nonsense like TD was better and its not even close and lets look at their primes????? NOT EVEN CLOSE??????????????

Stop it. I take KG but to say its not even close I would be talking out my ass just as you just did.

Its extremely close and the argument you gave was simply a distortion of reality. Any honest breakdown of their skill sets in their prime goes heavily to KG. Intangibles, results how to build around a guy? Those are reasonable arguments to support TD. Overall...of course its close!!!

I enjoy a good debate. But it is difficult to have a good debate when the other side is, close-minded, pompous, and incapable of articulating themselves in a concise manner.

You are entitled to your opinion, but understand that your opinion does not amount to concrete fact.

I will OWN up to the concise criticism...economy of words will never be my strong suit.

But my problem is...I find its you who are close minded and pompous. Well, maybe arrogant is a better word than pompous. And I do come off pompous on the boards...always have. But I back it up with loads of info whre you give these off the wall EXTREME opinions and do a poor job of backing them up.

Its OK if you disagree with me or anyone else. But for me, someone who tries to be arrogant and use words like YOU ARE WRONG...rather than I disagree and let me spend a few minutes debating with substance? Well that is going to put a target on your forehead for me.

The real big 3 picked TD. But he did a fantastic job of debating his point. You said you enjoy a good debate? You believe you ARENT close minded? Then prove it. Because I have been reading your posts and you acknowledge nothing. Not to me or anyone else. And I find that extremely grating. You speak in short matter of fact condescending sentences and fail to articulate more than your side without building a framework for why. And that's hard to do without typing long posts. But in my opinion you have options.

1- Have extreme opinions but back them up with an explanation. Some guys do this once in a while some all the time. Some need long posts to do it. And some like Speedy can really excel at making a great point with less. Maybe guys that do pick their spots better than you or I do at being so extreme.

2- Add content. Make a good point here and there and make people think...or make them laugh. we have so many guys who are great at this.

But under no circumstance should someone come off like a hit and run guy. I SAY ITS SO...AND YOU ARE WRONG...and THAT's THAT. Doesnt matter if what I say is over the top...THAT'S THE WAY IT IS. And I cant be bothered to back it up. I dont think you are a troll like this lemon ass clown. I think you are articulate and have a lot to say. I am just personally enraged by the way you say it.

You dont get the call me pompous. Others can. But you? Not without being a hypocrite.

Bring a real debate...be respectful, acknowledge a point here and there even if you disagree with it and I will treat you the same. Continue to have this hollier than though douche baggery opinion of yourself with no substance behind it...and you will see what waking a sleeping giant looks like. But consider my feedback in this post...and you may enjoy having quality debates with me as many many others have over the years.

[drejeronfire]

But under no circumstance should someone come off like a hit and run guy. I SAY ITS SO...AND YOU ARE WRONG...and THAT's THAT....

...Continue to have this hollier than though douche baggery opinion of yourself with no substance behind it...and you will see what waking a sleeping giant looks like.

The irony of this is that this is exactly what many others and I have tried to convey to you.

But it's good to see that there are no hard feelings. I was beginning to get a little worried...

[enetric]

See you didnt get it. It wasnt ironic. I ADMITTED my pompous nature. But clearly YOU CANT!

The difference is I back it up. You dont.


I am on you because you act like me, you talk like me...but YOU'RE NOT ME.

So if you want to take on this role then you need to back it up. Why dont you re-read that last post again? I think you focused on the wrong things. I am sure my insults didnt help to keep you open minded. But there was some stuff I think you should seriously consider in your on line persona.

[therealbig3]

But regarding the man to man D argument, someone over on the PC board actually went and kept track of how many times Duncan defended Shaq vs Robinson and Rose:

No. I actually went through the tape and found out who was guarding Shaq from 01-03. I watched a majority of the playoff games from 01-03:

vs. Duncan: 21-49 (.429), 8 TOV (5 of them charges/offensive fouls drawn)

vs. Robinson: 31-63 (.492), 5 TOV (1 offensive foul)

vs. Rose: 15-27 (.556), 2 TOV (2 offensive fouls)

vs. Other big men (Bryant, Willis, Walker): 6-12, 1 TOV (1 offensive foul)


Now here are the stats for who was guarding Shaq in the games Duncan/Robinson played (Robinson missed 1 of the games):

Duncan 31.0%
Robinson 46.9%
Rose 19.3%
Willis 2.1%
Walker 0.7%

Duncan was the guy mostly guarding Shaq when DRob left the game. Thats true in 2002 when DRob was injured. In the games I charted, I had Duncan on Shaq on 51.6% of the possessions a player was guarding Shaq in the 2002 playoffs.

Now, I can't really double check his work, and so take it for what you will, but it seems that Duncan did defend Shaq a lot, and was clearly more successful than anyone else...while carrying a huge offensive load. And I'd argue that guarding Shaq 31% of the time is just as draining as guarding someone like Sheed 50+% of the time, if not moreso.

I don't think KG ever defended Shaq, and if he did, I don't think ever did a good job on him. That's speculation though, because I don't personally remember him doing so.

Assuming this is all accurate of course.

And by peak vs consistency in terms of rebounding, I was comparing their TRB% to each other during their primes. KG from 99-08 vs Duncan from 98-07. Both of them are at 18.3% over that time. KG did peak higher. So it stands to reason that Duncan was more consistently dominant on the glass, while KG peaked higher, but was also quite a bit lower in other seasons.

I totally agree with regards to KG and how bad his T'Wolves teams were. But I wasn't taking wins and losses into account, I was looking at individual production, but that's still somewhat a product of the players around you, so you have a point.

[drejeronfire]

See you didnt get it. It wasnt ironic. I ADMITTED my pompous nature. But clearly YOU CANT!

The difference is I back it up. You dont.

Ah ha! A joke! I think I'm starting to understand your humor now!

[Shameer1016]

Lakers by far. Using last season as a example, is it far fetched to say Lakers have 4 Top 5 players in there respect positions? Plus they have a pretty good bench going into this season.

[enetric]

See you didnt get it. It wasnt ironic. I ADMITTED my pompous nature. But clearly YOU CANT!

The difference is I back it up. You dont.

Ah ha! A joke! I think I'm starting to understand your humor now!

YOu want to play this way...I have no problem making you my bitch. But all you do is say things with arrogance...that's my opinion and add no actual substance behind your posts. You cant be bothered adding length or doing homework.

Continue to post the way you have and I will gladly pimp slap the stupid out of you that your Momma couldnt.

[drejeronfire]

See you didnt get it. It wasnt ironic. I ADMITTED my pompous nature. But clearly YOU CANT!

The difference is I back it up. You dont.

Ah ha! A joke! I think I'm starting to understand your humor now!

YOu want to play this way...I have no problem making you my bitch. But all you do is say things with arrogance...that's my opinion and add no actual substance behind your posts. You cant be bothered adding length or doing homework.

Continue to post the way you have and I will gladly pimp slap the stupid out of you that your Momma couldnt.

If I didn't know better I'd say you were challenging me to an e-gangster-off...

(Pro Tip: That's a bad move on your part BRO.)



You're not built to battle me.

[enetric]

The dump I flushed an hour ago had more knowledge than you do. You are in way over your head little lady.

[drejeronfire]

Well done. If someone with credibility made that comment it might have actually hurt.

[enetric]

My credibility on Real GM? HA! You are a low level nothing who hasnt added anything to this site. Its not a problem. One more slug I can ban to the troll graveyard.

[drejeronfire]

My credibility on Real GM? HA! You are a low level nothing who hasnt added anything to this site. Its not a problem. One more slug I can ban to the troll graveyard.

Better men have tried. This is a road you do not want to travel.



I can't... You don't even know... You don't even know bro... I was expecting better.

[enetric]

Who is this ass clown? Please...

I gave you a mountain of fact based info on Kobe and the Lakers in their finals loss to the Pistons after your embarrassing post about Karl Malone being the primary reason they lost. Go back to it and get yourself an NBA education. Until then...little children should be seen and not heard.