2014 NBA Draft/Offseason Thread Part II

[Prokorov]

First off, I never said he was a great PnR defender. You called him the worst defender at his position which calls for statistical evidence considering there is over 20 Centers in the league.

Again, there is no reliable statistical evidence for individual defense. there are some that are DECENT as far as team defense, but nothing comes close for evaluating individual defense. and certainly nothing close to watching the game or the film. you could play HORRIBLE defense on a possesion and see all your defensive stats go up. you could block a shot at the rim on a smaller player, then have your man corral the rebound, miss, get another rebound, then get fouled by you trying to throw down a dunk.

you would add a block and have an 0-2 against you in your "opponent FG% at the rim" after being dominated on a possession.

You now want to use the 'eye test' as an argument which is a ridiculous cop out. Any stat that disproves your statement isn't a valid way to accurately estimate defense apparently. It's pretty ridiculous to make an outlandish statement about Sanders being twice as better with nothing to back it up. The eye test isn't going to do it either.

the eye test is the only reliable way to evaluate defense. the starts are simply horrible unless you are evaluating 5 man units, and even then can be misleading. which is why no one relies on individual defensive metrics, even those who live by advanced stats

You just said a week ago, FGM against the rim and PPP was the 'true' indicator on defense.

FGM against at the rim and PPP at the rim are the true indicators. if a guy misses at the rim, rebounds over you, misses again, rebounds over you again and then dunks it in your face while getting fouled you come away with a 33.3% opponents FG% at the rim.

You change the script to suit the situation. I can provide a wide range of variable indicators of Lopez on defense. You keep flip flopping and this week it's the eye test which works on the matter of opinion. Numbers do not.

FGM against at PPP are the rim are better for evaluating specifically scoring at the rim. its not a good indicator of overall individual defense. and even then it doesnt tell the whole story. again, you watch 99% of the games. you know lopez is a horrible defeder, you see it every game. there is no need to muddle it up with defensive metrics that are horrible at evaluating individuals

[Paradise]

Again, there is no reliable statistical evidence for individual defense. there are some that are DECENT as far as team defense, but nothing comes close for evaluating individual defense. and certainly nothing close to watching the game or the film. you could play HORRIBLE defense on a possesion and see all your defensive stats go up. you could block a shot at the rim on a smaller player, then have your man corral the rebound, miss, get another rebound, then get fouled by you trying to throw down a dunk.

you would add a block and have an 0-2 against you in your "opponent FG% at the rim" after being dominated on a possession.



the eye test is the only reliable way to evaluate defense. the starts are simply horrible unless you are evaluating 5 man units, and even then can be misleading. which is why no one relies on individual defensive metrics, even those who live by advanced stats

You just said a week ago, FGM against the rim and PPP was the 'true' indicator on defense.

FGM against at the rim and PPP at the rim are the true indicators. if a guy misses at the rim, rebounds over you, misses again, rebounds over you again and then dunks it in your face while getting fouled you come away with a 33.3% opponents FG% at the rim.

You change the script to suit the situation. I can provide a wide range of variable indicators of Lopez on defense. You keep flip flopping and this week it's the eye test which works on the matter of opinion. Numbers do not.

FGM against at PPP are the rim are better for evaluating specifically scoring at the rim. its not a good indicator of overall individual defense. and even then it doesnt tell the whole story. again, you watch 99% of the games. you know lopez is a horrible defeder, you see it every game. there is no need to muddle it up with defensive metrics that are horrible at evaluating individuals

I watch the games and he is not a 'horrible defender'. That is what you believe. It's not a fact. If I provided footage to disprove that then suddenly stats evaluation would become justified.

[F3LON]

Mirza at small forward would be a disaster.

Mirza vs starting level talent would be a disaster. He is a rotational player at best depending on the matchup

Don't have a large enough sample size to determine that. My area of concern with him as a starting power forward would be with his rebounding especially if starting next to Lopez.

I think we have seen enough of his play to conclude that

- Big PFs will dominate him on the inside scoring and rebounding.
- Combo forwards will eat him alive on the perimeter.
- For some strange reason the player he matches us well against defensively is LeBron of all people. I still dont understand this.

[Paradise]

Hollins: "Everyone's going play whatever minutes they deserve to play"

http://www.amny.com/sports/lionel-holli ... -1.9099952

No more minute restrictions for KG.

[MGrand15]

Mirza vs starting level talent would be a disaster. He is a rotational player at best depending on the matchup

Don't have a large enough sample size to determine that. My area of concern with him as a starting power forward would be with his rebounding especially if starting next to Lopez.

I think we have seen enough of his play to conclude that

- Big PFs will dominate him on the inside scoring and rebounding.
- Combo forwards will eat him alive on the perimeter.
- For some strange reason the player he matches us well against defensively is LeBron of all people. I still dont understand this.

PJ Carlisimo, is that you?

I don't think any of that is fair to say. Mirza had a couple of nights where he was overmatched and a lot of nights where he was perfectly fine/decent on defense. He's not an elite guy, or a guy you throw on KD or Al Jefferson - but he's solid. Saying that he can't play big guys or perimeter guys would mean he's a liability against most teams. That's not true and it's exactly how PJC felt about him.

[MGrand15]

It's funny, if Prokorov just said Deron and Lopez were below average defenders - most people would say eh I don't really agree but I guess understand. Instead Prokorov says Deron and Brook are THE TWO WORST DEFENDERS AT THEIR POSITIONS. Such a ridiculous statement with all the players in the league that are straight up liabilities on defense.

[Prokorov]

It's funny, if Prokorov just said Deron and Lopez were below average defenders - most people would say eh I don't really agree but I guess understand. Instead Prokorov says Deron and Brook are THE TWO WORST DEFENDERS AT THEIR POSITIONS. Such a ridiculous statement with all the players in the league that are straight up liabilities on defense.

when i say worst at their position, i mean among starters. im not saying they are worse then the guys in suits who spend some time in the d-league

[therealbig3]

Well, Deron is pretty bad defensively, tbh.

He's slow, and he's unathletic...and his effort sucks for the most part too. Constantly getting lost, and constantly getting beat off the dribble.

Steve Nash before his last couple of years was honestly a better defensive PG than Deron, because at least he gave some effort on defense, and he's always been a smarter player too.

[therealbig3]

And with regards to Lopez...he's not Amare bad, but he's not that great defensively either. Shot blocking is pretty overrated by itself. The three most important things for a defensive big man is to:

1. be a high IQ defensive player that can read what the offense is trying to do
2. be a mobile player that can cover space and blow up plays, especially the PnR (aka the most dangerous offensive play in basketball)
3. clean up the defensive glass

Lopez is a liability in all 3 of those areas. Just compare how a 38 year old Garnett played defense to a 25 year old Lopez. It wasn't close. An ancient Kevin Garnett on his last legs, playing 20 mpg, had more defensive impact than Lopez ever had, and ever will have.

[MGrand15]

KG on his last legs played GREAT defense in those 20 mpg. So comparing Lopez to him is just silly. No one is calling him great on defense. Just saying that he's not the worst starting C on defense. Which is pretty much fact.

Steve Nash being a better defender than Deron. Deron being the worst defending starting PG in the league. I sometimes wonder if you guys are trolling or just have seen Deron play too much and grew tired of him.

I know that it's easy to throw out ridiculous statements about players and their defense because it's hard to quantify but at least be somewhat reasonable. Steve Nash was a liability in HIS PRIME. He was a guy you wanted to isolate against, post up, run off screens, etc. Deron has NEVER been that guy. Occasionally he has trouble staying in front of the John Wall type PGs but every one does.

Deron also has the added advantage of being able to effectively switch onto bigger players if necessary. Calling him worse than Nash or the worst PG starter in the league is a joke. But I'm sure you both know that. SMH.

[therealbig3]

Sorry, it's just a gross underestimation of Nash's defense, or a gross overestimation of Deron's defense, to say that it's a joke to call Nash better than Deron defensively.

Nash was a smart defender. Deron is not.

Nash gave effort on defense. Deron does not.

And yeah, I've seen Deron basically get called out on defense and targeted by opposing teams PLENTY of times throughout his Nets career.

Deron SHOULD be a good defender, and he SHOULD be a lot better than what Nash was defensively...but he really isn't. No, he doesn't just have problems staying in front of the John Wall types. He has problems staying in front of EVERYBODY. A 30+ year old Kirk Hinrich has shown the ability to take him off the dribble and get a layup against him. Jeremy Lin has roasted him. Raymond Felton has given him trouble too. These guys aren't anywhere close to John Wall types. When he does go up against the John Walls, the Russell Westbrooks, the Tony Parkers, the Derrick Roses, and the Kyle Lowrys, it gets really ugly.

[JMaine518]

I forgot all about Bojan Bogdanovic

[Prokorov]

KG on his last legs played GREAT defense in those 20 mpg. So comparing Lopez to him is just silly. No one is calling him great on defense. Just saying that he's not the worst starting C on defense. Which is pretty much fact.

Steve Nash being a better defender than Deron. Deron being the worst defending starting PG in the league. I sometimes wonder if you guys are trolling or just have seen Deron play too much and grew tired of him.

As TheRealBig3 put it, lopez is a liability in all 3 of the major areas of defense for a bigman. And if anyone here is being honest with themselves, they what he is saying is on the money. We have seen how much of a bind it puts us in when teams put Lopez in a pick and roll.... its only magnified when teams went with a 1-5 pick and roll putting both Lopez AND Williams in a pick and roll, which was our achillies heel 2 years ago.

Deron also has the added advantage of being able to effectively switch onto bigger players if necessary. Calling him worse than Nash or the worst PG starter in the league is a joke. But I'm sure you both know that. SMH.

Switching is a crutch... and it doesnt work in 1-5 pick and rolls. sure its great that he can slide to SG and gaurd a bigger guy there, but it doesnt help when he has to switch on to a center... and it helps even less when lopez has to switch on to a point gaurd.

Switching is great on the perimeter. and an advantage of playing small ball while having big gaurds/wings. but switching kills you when your bigs and small switch if you dont have top notch defenders. and lopez and dwill are bottom of the barrell defenders.

Is williams worse then nash defensively? Idk, but you can have legit conversation about it which really tells you all you need to know.

Williams is a really bad defender. but from a physical standpoint and an effort standpoint.

Lopez is a really bad defender. from an IQ, physical, and effort standpoint.

they both have size going for them, but that doesnt go very far. I wish i could make a compilation of every pick and roll that williams and lopez were involved in together. id assume that like 80% of those possesions led to us giving up a bucket, a foul, or a great shot

[Prokorov]

Deron SHOULD be a good defender, and he SHOULD be a lot better than what Nash was defensively...but he really isn't. No, he doesn't just have problems staying in front of the John Wall types. He has problems staying in front of EVERYBODY. A 30+ year old Kirk Hinrich has shown the ability to take him off the dribble and get a layup against him. Jeremy Lin has roasted him. Raymond Felton has given him trouble too. These guys aren't anywhere close to John Wall types. When he does go up against the John Walls, the Russell Westbrooks, the Tony Parkers, the Derrick Roses, and the Kyle Lowrys, it gets really ugly.

Exactly. How many times have we seen the knicks go Felton/Chandler pick and Roll against Dwill/Lopez and have it result in a riddiculously wide open alley-oop dunk? there was that one game where it happened like 3 or 4 times in one quarter

[therealbig3]

Another way to look at it is to see how many starting centers around the league are better than Lopez defensively (in no order):

Jonas Valanciunas
Samuel Dalembert
Nerlens Noel
Roy Hibbert
Joakim Noah
Anderson Varejao
Andre Drummond
Larry Sanders
Chris Bosh
Marcin Gortat
Al Horford
Al Jefferson
Kendrick Perkins
Timofey Mozgov
Derrick Favors
Deandre Jordan
Andrew Bogut
Demarcus Cousins
Jordan Hill
Tim Duncan
Dwight Howard
Marc Gasol
Tyson Chandler
Anthony Davis

That's 24 starting centers around the league that I think are better defensive players than Lopez. So not exactly the worst defensive starting center in the league...but pretty bad imo.

I mean, I used to be high on Lopez defensively too, but it was pretty eye-opening what a huge difference a mobile big man makes, and how much of a liability an immobile big man really is on defense.

[NyCeEvO]

I mean, I used to be high on Lopez defensively too, but it was pretty eye-opening what a huge difference a mobile big man makes, and how much of a liability an immobile big man really is on defense.

A few years ago I tried to tell y'all that but I was quickly dismissed as a Lopez hater.

[Prokorov]

Another way to look at it is to see how many starting centers around the league are better than Lopez defensively (in no order):

Jonas Valanciunas
Samuel Dalembert
Nerlens Noel
Roy Hibbert
Joakim Noah
Anderson Varejao
Andre Drummond
Larry Sanders
Chris Bosh
Marcin Gortat
Al Horford
Al Jefferson
Kendrick Perkins
Timofey Mozgov
Derrick Favors
Deandre Jordan
Andrew Bogut
Demarcus Cousins
Jordan Hill
Tim Duncan
Dwight Howard
Marc Gasol
Tyson Chandler
Anthony Davis

That's 24 starting centers around the league that I think are better defensive players than Lopez. So not exactly the worst defensive starting center in the league...but pretty bad imo.

I mean, I used to be high on Lopez defensively too, but it was pretty eye-opening what a huge difference a mobile big man makes, and how much of a liability an immobile big man really is on defense.

to be fair, nerlens noel is yet to play 1 single NBA game, and may end up playing PF. On the other hand you did miss a few guys who are obviously better defensively then Lopez like Omer Asik

[jeff1624]

Another way to look at it is to see how many starting centers around the league are better than Lopez defensively (in no order):

Samuel Dalembert
Nerlens Noel
Andre Drummond
Larry Sanders
Al Jefferson
Timofey Mozgov
Derrick Favors
Deandre Jordan
Demarcus Cousins
Jordan Hill

That's 24 starting centers around the league that I think are better defensive players than Lopez. So not exactly the worst defensive starting center in the league...but pretty bad imo.

I mean, I used to be high on Lopez defensively too, but it was pretty eye-opening what a huge difference a mobile big man makes, and how much of a liability an immobile big man really is on defense.

Lopez isn't a good defensive player... but I think some of you are making him out to be Andray Blatche bad. We were actually better defensively this year with him than without him and that's taking into account our resurgence following the new year. He's definitely middle of the pack defensively... but seeing some of these names has left me confused.

-Samuel Dalembert? Huh? Opposing Centers post a 17.4 PER against him. Against Lopez, 17.2. And they got rid of him to upgrade their defense. I think you're letting that game he had against us earlier in the year to cloud your judgment.

-I'm EXTREMELY high on Noel and wouldn't be surprised to see him win multiple DPOY awards in his career.... but he has yet to play an official game.

-Andre Drummond has the tools to be a monster defensive player. He still hasn't learned how to utilize them though. Opposing Centers post a 19.4 PER against him AND the team was noticeably worse defensively when he was on the court. He was a big reason why Detroit was a mess defensively.

-Larry Sanders has had ONE out of four years where he was a difference maker defensively. This past year he regressed noticeably and allowed opposing centers to post up a PER of 21.2

-Al Jefferson is slower and has less hops than Lopez. Maybe he's a solid post defender (like Lopez) but he struggles with the same issues Lopez does and even more so because he doesn't block many shots.

-Mozgov isn't even a starter. His career high is 21 MPG. Not sure how he's eligible, not that I think he's better defensively anyways.

-Derrick Favors. Opponent PER 24.0, And the Jazz were better defensively with him off the floor. He's also more of a PF.

-Deandre Jordan. Ahhh Deandre Jordan. The classic misconception that Deandre Jordan is a good defender. The misconception that annoys me the most from the NBA. First let me get the usual statistics out of the way. Opponent PER 19.4. Team was a bit better with him off the floor. With him they allowed 106.1 points per 100/p and without him they allowed 106 points per 100/p and that was with Byron Mullens being the backup center for most of the season. Aside from the totally mediocre defensive numbers, he gets either eaten up by opposing star big men or said big man posts numbers higher than their season average most of the time. He's improved, definitely, but all of this talk of Jordan for DPOY makes me want to throw up. Before this past season EVERY star center ate him up. Lopez has toyed with him. Bynum has toyed with him. Cousins has toyed with him and on and on. He's a mediocre center that gets more credit than he deserves because he blocks shots and he's athletic. He has s****y footwork and gets lost way to much to be considered a good defensive player. Deandre Jordan borders on being a BAD defender.

-Demarcus Cousins: http://grantland.com/features/the-futur ... t-mystery/

-Jordan Hill? He barely plays 20 minutes a night.

[Paradise]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/nydnmabramson/status/502181579876483072[/tweet]

[Prokorov]

Lopez isn't a good defensive player... but I think some of you are making him out to be Andray Blatche bad. We were actually better defensively this year with him than without him and that's taking into account our resurgence following the new year. He's definitely middle of the pack defensively... but seeing some of these names has left me confused.

using any stats off a 17 game sample really is irrelevant. too small of a sample size. also too many other factors at work

-Samuel Dalembert? Huh? Opposing Centers post a 17.4 PER against him. Against Lopez, 17.2. And they got rid of him to upgrade their defense. I think you're letting that game he had against us earlier in the year to cloud your judgment.

no one is calling dalembert the next mutombo. he isnt a good defender either... but he is better then lopez.

-Andre Drummond has the tools to be a monster defensive player. He still hasn't learned how to utilize them though. Opposing Centers post a 19.4 PER against him AND the team was noticeably worse defensively when he was on the court. He was a big reason why Detroit was a mess defensively.

and lopez is the reason why our defense has so many breakdowns when he is on the floor.

-Larry Sanders has had ONE out of four years where he was a difference maker defensively. This past year he regressed noticeably and allowed opposing centers to post up a PER of 21.2

opposing PER is a terrible way to evaluate how someone plays defense. how do we know when a guy was or wasnt gaurding the opposing center. how do we know when it was a sanders breakdown or a team breakdown? team defense is whats most important... if you are in a pick and roll and do your job perfect, your man can still score if your teammate has a break down.

-Al Jefferson is slower and has less hops than Lopez. Maybe he's a solid post defender (like Lopez) but he struggles with the same issues Lopez does and even more so because he doesn't block many shots.

if this was the olympics that might matter. Al jefferson is a top 10 defensive big. and one of the reasons charlotte was so good defensively

-Deandre Jordan. Ahhh Deandre Jordan. The classic misconception that Deandre Jordan is a good defender.

again, no one called jordan a good defender, just saying that he is better then lopez. you dont have to be a good defender to be better then lopez, cause lopez is one of if not the worst starting defensive center in the league. is he better then blatche? sure, he is better then a boneheaded reserve who is playing in the phillipens, not syaing much