Nets Buyout Joe Johnson (Page 4)

[NyCeEvO]

I think you're being inconsistent in judgment of salary vs production. I really brought up Deron for two reasons, first like I just mentioned before salary vs proudction, 2nd public preception this season. Joe has been terrible according to the board, the most singled out player on every GT, and everything is under a microscope. Deron is "resurgent", "healthy", "playing awesome", not a reason for our shortcoming this season. Here is a list of pgs (only including starters). I have include their salaries and ranked by PER:

Player PPG Asst Turn TS% PER Contract
Chris Paul 17.9 9.8 1.5 64.0% 28.1 $20 million
Steph Curry 23.2 11.6 4.8 63.4% 27.5 $10.6 million
Kyle Lowry 20.7 6.9 1.8 56.7% 24.3 $12 million
Kyrie Irving 20.8 4.6 1.6 61.4% 23.1 $7 million *5 year $90 million extension
Damian Lillard 19.9 6.3 2.6 60.4% 22.4 $3.3 million
Jeff Teague 17.3 7.1 3.2 59.8% 21.5 $8 million
Mike Conley 16.7 6.3 2.2 57.8% 20.6 8.7 million
John Wall 17.6 10.0 3.8 51.4% 20.3 $14.7 million
Brandon Knight 17.6 5.8 3.3 58% 19.8 $3.6 million
Darren Collison 16.4 6.6 2.3 54.2% 19.1 $4.8 million
Ty Lawson 15.8 10.3 3.0 50.8% 18.2 $11.6 million
Jrue Holiday 15.2 6.6 1.8 51.8% 18 $9.9 million
Deron 17.1 6.5 2.7 56.0% 17.7 $20 million
Tony Parker 16.6 5.5 2.7 58.6% 17.3 $12.5 million *3 year $45 million extension

Didn't include the Phoenix trio:
Eric Bledsoe 15.8 5.7 3.2 56.5% 18.3 $13 million
Goran Dragic 16 3.8 2.1 58.0% 17.2 $7.5 million
Isiah Thomas 15.5 4.1 1.9 59.5% 22.8 $7.2 million

This also doesn't include Westbrook due to sample size - who is clearly head and shoulders above DWill.

Deron went from a guy getting outplayed by Chalmers in the playoffs to an average point guard - slightly above this season. How many games has he taken over? Our 1st game against the Knicks and that's it? He's not a top 10 point guard and he's being paid Chris Paul money. He's suppose to playing at a superstar level instead so many have just been happy if he looks spry, has bounce in his step, attacks the basket once a game. Joe was the third best player in the Eastern Conference playoffs - and it seems people are holding him to that standard - 3rd best player in the East.

Good point guards are paid substantially less than any other position because of how deep the position in.

This team has a laundry list of problems, from top to bottom. None of our core players are meeting expectations, our bench is putrid, Hollins rotations have been head-scratchers, we're turning the ball over, getting outrebound, outhustled, the list goes on. The problems extend far beyond Joe.

Edit and sorry for how those stats posteed, I put spaces in between them but they're all clustered.

As I said before, because this is the JJ thread I wanted to respect the OP and basically comment on JJ. I replied to what you said and said that I'd speak "Quickly on D-Will".

That wasn't a full length response/statement of my opinion of D-Will the player against D-Will's production vs. contract.

If you want an extensive analysis and response on D-Will, start (or re-open if there is one) a D-Will thread and we can talk about him there.

[NyCeEvO]

Since this is the JJ thread, I figured I'd obey the rules and talk mainly about JJ.

I will state this again, my view on JJ is divided into two perspectives: 1) his actual performance 2) his performance while considering his contract and the ramifications for team.

Regarding #1, I'm meh on JJ. He did well in the 2013 playoffs. He stunk in the 2012 playoffs but he had plantar fasciitis, so I think it would be unfair to criticize him too much for that.

His regular season production is decent but nothing to make me go "Wow" considering his talent level. I feel like we should be able to get more out of him than what he gives but he's quite comfortable in playing his game and doesn't do much to exert himself beyond his typical playing style.

Regarding #2 (and the Bargs comparison), that's difficult. As I said before, JJ the player doesn't really get my wrath unless he absolutely stinks. JJ the contract gets my wrath.
And since his contract is significantly larger than Bargs, I don't really see it being the same argument. Even so, you're reading it as if my disdain is for the JJ the player and it's not.
.

I dont mind factoring in a players contract into the assessments or expectations on them... but it just seems pretty inconsistent and a bit unfair. Sometimes you are going on intent, sometimes you are going on how it played out. Does it really matter if D12 wanted to come here, if it didnt happen? Does it not matter that dwill has been so poor since that no other big name guy wants to pair with him? does it not matter that he kills so much of our cap in 2016, where a max guy would basically be hitching their wagon to him? Does it not matter that part of the reason we didnt get D12 was because they didnt want to max lopez, and that we did have to max lopez as a result of not getting that deal done?

Oh...I definitely hear you on that.

I didn't make it as clear but that D12 comment I made was more of just a personal "hey, that was kinda cool" thing that really isn't a part of the 'D-Will the player' analysis. You're right on that one.

Also, i think something has to be said for us not signing johnson, but trading for his deal. its not like we paid him and he didnt live up to the deal(like lopez and dwill). We traded for him already knowing that he was overpaid and his production would never live up to his pay.... its not like we traded him with some expectations of him being a top 5-10 player. i think the expectation was fringe all-star. him making the team 1 of 2 years to me meets that. I also think its unfair not to include all the late game heroics. last year he had arguably the single most clutch regular season in the past 30 years as far as last minute play in close games. and then followed it up with some pretty clutch post season play.

For me with Joe, its about fit. i mean remeber he has only been here 2 years, and the year he played without brook here he had an allstar season. lets see if his play increases now that brook is out. i think he can fit well with williams, but i dont see the fit with him and lopez.

As far as his contract from a salary cap perspective, it had little impact, as we would have been over the cap and tax for the entire duration of his deal with or without his money on there. once we maxed brook/Dwill. we were gonna be over the cap regardless.

as far as the picks we gave up for him, it is simply unfair to blame joe for billy kings incompetance

I don't really disagree with you here. The clutch moments were definitely unreal, although I do remember a number of those moments coming at the end of an overall poor or meh game. While clutch moments are good for Youtube, I'd personally prefer dominant play such that we're ahead by an amount where GW shots aren't needed to secure the victory.

This isn't to discount those moments, but it does contextualize them for me. How many of these games was JJ straight ballin for 4 quarters and yet he still needed to GW shot to put them away? Few, if I recall.

And your point about Billy is absolutely right. That's why I've been trying to spell out my view of JJ the player and show how it's different from JJ the contract and process of acquiring him. I've said over and over again that it wasn't his fault about being offered the contract and affecting our salary cap situation.

That's also why I've been looking at him in a more positive light since the first season he got here. Because he was disappointing to me as a player in the 2012-13 season (with an under-15 PER), did nothing in that playoff series, and was making all of that money. I was pissed all the time at him for not playing up to his contract.

But since that time, I've learned to separate the player from the contract (mainly by points that you've brought up tbh) and haven't really thought about it too much.

[NyCeEvO]

I don't think any one will argue that Deron's production isn't worth the money he's getting paid. Bringing him up in a JJ thread though is just trying to divert the negative attention some where else. We've all said how bad he was all of last year.

Exactly. If we're going to talk about D-Will, we should create a thread for him or resurrect the "Brooklyn's Backcourt" thread, which was intended to be used as a thread to talk about both players' production.

[kerry kittles]

I think you're being inconsistent in judgment of salary vs production. I really brought up Deron for two reasons, first like I just mentioned before salary vs proudction, 2nd public preception this season. Joe has been terrible according to the board, the most singled out player on every GT, and everything is under a microscope. Deron is "resurgent", "healthy", "playing awesome", not a reason for our shortcoming this season. Here is a list of pgs (only including starters). I have include their salaries and ranked by PER:

Player PPG Asst Turn TS% PER Contract
Chris Paul 17.9 9.8 1.5 64.0% 28.1 $20 million
Steph Curry 23.2 11.6 4.8 63.4% 27.5 $10.6 million
Kyle Lowry 20.7 6.9 1.8 56.7% 24.3 $12 million
Kyrie Irving 20.8 4.6 1.6 61.4% 23.1 $7 million *5 year $90 million extension
Damian Lillard 19.9 6.3 2.6 60.4% 22.4 $3.3 million
Jeff Teague 17.3 7.1 3.2 59.8% 21.5 $8 million
Mike Conley 16.7 6.3 2.2 57.8% 20.6 8.7 million
John Wall 17.6 10.0 3.8 51.4% 20.3 $14.7 million
Brandon Knight 17.6 5.8 3.3 58% 19.8 $3.6 million
Darren Collison 16.4 6.6 2.3 54.2% 19.1 $4.8 million
Ty Lawson 15.8 10.3 3.0 50.8% 18.2 $11.6 million
Jrue Holiday 15.2 6.6 1.8 51.8% 18 $9.9 million
Deron 17.1 6.5 2.7 56.0% 17.7 $20 million
Tony Parker 16.6 5.5 2.7 58.6% 17.3 $12.5 million *3 year $45 million extension

Didn't include the Phoenix trio:
Eric Bledsoe 15.8 5.7 3.2 56.5% 18.3 $13 million
Goran Dragic 16 3.8 2.1 58.0% 17.2 $7.5 million
Isiah Thomas 15.5 4.1 1.9 59.5% 22.8 $7.2 million

This also doesn't include Westbrook due to sample size - who is clearly head and shoulders above DWill.

Deron went from a guy getting outplayed by Chalmers in the playoffs to an average point guard - slightly above this season. How many games has he taken over? Our 1st game against the Knicks and that's it? He's not a top 10 point guard and he's being paid Chris Paul money. He's suppose to playing at a superstar level instead so many have just been happy if he looks spry, has bounce in his step, attacks the basket once a game. Joe was the third best player in the Eastern Conference playoffs - and it seems people are holding him to that standard - 3rd best player in the East.

Good point guards are paid substantially less than any other position because of how deep the position in.

This team has a laundry list of problems, from top to bottom. None of our core players are meeting expectations, our bench is putrid, Hollins rotations have been head-scratchers, we're turning the ball over, getting outrebound, outhustled, the list goes on. The problems extend far beyond Joe.

Edit and sorry for how those stats posteed, I put spaces in between them but they're all clustered.

As I said before, because this is the JJ thread I wanted to respect the OP and basically comment on JJ. I replied to what you said and said that I'd speak "Quickly on D-Will".

That wasn't a full length response/statement of my opinion of D-Will the player against D-Will's production vs. contract.

If you want an extensive analysis and response on D-Will, start (or re-open if there is one) a D-Will thread and we can talk about him there.

My apologies for derailing. Honestly I'm only bringing him up because I think the playoff performances last year have shifted the goal posts for how we view both players. It set an unrealistically high bar for Joe he hasn't lived up to and dropped expectations so low for Deron that everyone's impressed by his play.

At the end of the day both are producing like players worth $12 instead of like our $20 million men. We are hampered both of these contracts. So if we view joe by his contract we should do the same with Deron.

There's such an enormous list of problems with this franchise at the moment.

[F3LON]

So what Im getting from this thread is

- Good games vs bad teams dont count.
- Swapping picks is some great value
- Johnson is the reason we are over the cap

SMH

Just about every player in the NBA plays better vs the poor teams. Why does JJ have to apologize for that? We have played roughly the same amount of games this year that we did in the playoffs last year. How did JJ do in the playoffs vs the "good teams"? Oh that's right he fcking dominated.

We were further behind the Hawks last year and I saw the same crybabies wining about how the Hawks were definitely going to get our top 5 pick. 10-21 is a long way away from being 8-10. We are only 4.5 games behind Atlanta and are only about a quarter of the way through the season. I still think the Nets win 45+ which means we are worried about losing a pick in the 20's.

For all of you math majors out their, subtracting JJ's salary doesnt put us under the cap. So it really doesnt matter if he made 23 or 33 million. The only thing we lose is the MLE and I think we made out with this years mini-MLE (Bogdanovic). If we had the full MLE, Bogs would have gotten the whole thing.

Lopez going down is a blessing in disguise IMO. KG and Mirza will start and allows us to invert our offense like last year. JJ stands to benefit the most and I am predicting a strong run of games coming up for JJ and Bogs. Taking Lopez and his post ups out of the offense will lead to much better offensive flow.

Johnson's last 5 games without Lopez
18.6 PPG
50% FG
46.9% 3pt
4.8 Reb
3.2 Ast
1.2 Stl

[NyCeEvO]

So what Im getting from this thread is

- Good games vs bad teams dont count.
- Swapping picks is some great value
- Johnson is the reason we are over the cap

SMH

Just about every player in the NBA plays better vs the poor teams. Why does JJ have to apologize for that? We have played roughly the same amount of games this year that we did in the playoffs last year. How did JJ do in the playoffs vs the "good teams"? Oh that's right he fcking dominated.

We were further behind the Hawks last year and I saw the same crybabies wining about how the Hawks were definitely going to get our top 5 pick. 10-21 is a long way away from being 8-10. We are only 4.5 games behind Atlanta and are only about a quarter of the way through the season. I still think the Nets win 45+ which means we are worried about losing a pick in the 20's.

For all of you math majors out their, subtracting JJ's salary doesnt put us under the cap. So it really doesnt matter if he made 23 or 33 million. The only thing we lose is the MLE and I think we made out with this years mini-MLE (Bogdanovic). If we had the full MLE, Bogs would have gotten the whole thing.

Lopez going down is a blessing in disguise IMO. KG and Mirza will start and allows us to invert our offense like last year. JJ stands to benefit the most and I am predicting a strong run of games coming up for JJ and Bogs. Taking Lopez and his post ups out of the offense will lead to much better offensive flow.

Johnson's last 5 games without Lopez
18.6 PPG
50% FG
46.9% 3pt
4.8 Reb
3.2 Ast
1.2 Stl

If you have too many guys who need the ball to be effective, someone is going to get squeezed.

When we force feed Lopez, JJ doesn't have the balls to tell him "We play better when I'm the #1 option and D-Will is distributing."

That's probably why he went to the media and Twitter. He doesn't have the alpha male screw you type of personality.

With that said, it's clear what we need to do to compete in today's league. Compiling players and giving them big dollars without thinking about fit is asinine and that's exactly what King had done.

Lopez is a good individual talent but you cannot win with him as your #1 option.

This is a wings league now.

I'm convinced that order of priority for trades should be 1) Lopez 2) D-Will. JJ can stay if he's willing to take a massive pay cut.

Everyone on the Nets talks about emulating the Spurs but they won't put their money where their mouth is and actually sacrifice to get it.

We can do what Dallas has done but it starts with guys who want to win so badly that they're willing to take less to do so (or you have to get talent through the draft).

Since we have no draft picks, we need to ship off Lopez at a minimum and tell everyone else to take less or take a hike cuz we're trying to get as much talent per dollar value on the team.

[F3LON]

To all of those haters who threw dirt on Joe Johnson

Joe's #s from Dec so far

17.8 PPG
48.6% FG
45.8% 3pt
4.8 Reb
3.8 Ast

[Paradise]

To all of those haters who threw dirt on Joe Johnson

Joe's #s from Dec so far

17.8 PPG
48.6% FG
45.8% 3pt
4.8 Reb
3.8 Ast

It's more about the context. He hasn't had a good game against a good team and he still doesn't put up the volume numbers of a first option.

Love the efficiency but he needs to dominate against the good teams and actually take more than 12 shots per game. I have no problems with Joe otherwise. He's definitely my favorite Net since Vince Carter.

[F3LON]

To all of those haters who threw dirt on Joe Johnson

Joe's #s from Dec so far

17.8 PPG
48.6% FG
45.8% 3pt
4.8 Reb
3.8 Ast

It's more about the context. He hasn't had a good game against a good team and he still doesn't put up the volume numbers of a first option.

Love the efficiency but he needs to dominate against the good teams and actually take more than 12 shots per game. I have no problems with Joe otherwise. He's definitely my favorite Net since Vince Carter.

The only context is that you were wrong.

Last time I checked Cleveland and Toronto are good teams.

He isnt a selfish player so he isnt going to pull a Kobe or KD and chuck. His unselfishness is a reason why we are playing well with a bunch of backups.

If we can turn DWill and Lopez into 4 NBA starting quality players then we will be pretty damn good.

[Paradise]

To all of those haters who threw dirt on Joe Johnson

Joe's #s from Dec so far

17.8 PPG
48.6% FG
45.8% 3pt
4.8 Reb
3.8 Ast

It's more about the context. He hasn't had a good game against a good team and he still doesn't put up the volume numbers of a first option.

Love the efficiency but he needs to dominate against the good teams and actually take more than 12 shots per game. I have no problems with Joe otherwise. He's definitely my favorite Net since Vince Carter.

The only context is that you were wrong.

Last time I checked Cleveland and Toronto are good teams.

He isnt a selfish player so he isnt going to pull a Kobe or KD and chuck. His unselfishness is a reason why we are playing well with a bunch of backups.

If we can turn DWill and Lopez into 4 NBA starting quality players then we will be pretty damn good.

He was not good against Toronto. Yes, he had a great game vs Cleveland but that's literally his first good game against a good team. It's not about being selfish. It's about being assertive and being more aggressive. He averaged well over 20 points per game in Atlanta and as recently in the playoffs. So, It's not like we are asking him for anything he hasn't done already. You can average 20+ points and still be unselfish.

[NyCeEvO]

It's more about the context. He hasn't had a good game against a good team and he still doesn't put up the volume numbers of a first option.

Love the efficiency but he needs to dominate against the good teams and actually take more than 12 shots per game. I have no problems with Joe otherwise. He's definitely my favorite Net since Vince Carter.

The only context is that you were wrong.

Last time I checked Cleveland and Toronto are good teams.

He isnt a selfish player so he isnt going to pull a Kobe or KD and chuck. His unselfishness is a reason why we are playing well with a bunch of backups.

If we can turn DWill and Lopez into 4 NBA starting quality players then we will be pretty damn good.

He was not good against Toronto. Yes, he had a great game vs Cleveland but that's literally his first good game against a good team. It's not about being selfish. It's about being assertive and being more aggressive. He averaged well over 20 points per game in Atlanta and as recently in the playoffs. So, It's not like we are asking him for anything he hasn't done already. You can average 20+ points and still be unselfish.

There's no point.

The two JJs on the team are MJ in his prime. Everyone else (save Plumlee) on the team is a scrub that shouldn't be in the league.

[kerry kittles]

He was not good against Toronto. Yes, he had a great game vs Cleveland but that's literally his first good game against a good team. It's not about being selfish. It's about being assertive and being more aggressive. He averaged well over 20 points per game in Atlanta and as recently in the playoffs. So, It's not like we are asking him for anything he hasn't done already. You can average 20+ points and still be unselfish.

He had a bad 4th quarter against Toronto which i believe was due to playing big minutes on the 2nd night of a back-to-back. He was great through 3 quarters and then lost his legs in the 4th - Joe doesn't miss 3 ft's unless he's gassed.

But since Brook has gone down he's close to 20 points per game, not far off his playoff scoring. Here's his numbers over the last 7 games:
19.4 ppg on 51.9%/51.2 3P%, 3.7 apg, 4.1 rpg

He is playing better as the focal point of the offense as is the rest of the team.

[DarkXaero]

Joe Johnson has been playing more efficiently lately, but he still can't score at the rate that you would your #1 option to be. He sucks at getting to the line so that's the main reason. Brook remains a better scoring option than JJ, providing that Brook can score like he did in the past two seasons (and not his sluggish ways this season).

[F3LON]

So Joe has been playing with tendinitis for over a month. It explains why he went from playing great to playing horrible. It's not like we couldnt see this coming. DWIll and Lopez being injured forced Hollins to ride Johnson into the ground.

[shakendfries]

Joe Jesus Highlights
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffYuP6z1coI[/youtube]

[Claud]

Marc Stein
✔
‎@ESPNSteinLine

Joe Johnson and the Brooklyn Nets have opened buyout negotiations, ESPN has learned
9:57 AM - 25 Feb 2016

531 531 Retweets
290

Marc Stein
✔
‎@ESPNSteinLine

Sources tell ESPN several playoff teams (Atlanta, Boston, Cleveland, Houston, Miami, OKC and Toronto) are already in pursuit of Joe Johnson
9:59 AM - 25 Feb 2016

549 549 Retweets
290

Goodbye Joe! One of my favorite players during the Brooklyn era.

[Dirk]

Out of those teams, he should go to OKC. No way he goes to Toronto or Boston surely. Atlanta? They booed JJ for no reason when he played there with the Nets.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/status/702893809412104192[/tweet]

Clown.

[MrDollarBills]

Damn, I kinda just teared up just now. I know its been rough the last two seasons but I am kinda sad to see Joe go. It's time though, he needs to ring chase and we need to play our young guys.

I'll never forget when he gave us the last that he had left in those legs when he was destroying people left and right during the Kidd coached season. that was A tier level basketball, when he kicked Demar Derozan and terrence ross' asses all over the place vs. Toronto that was one of the best performances from any Nets player in the team's history. I mean literally whipped them like dogs. It was beautiful.

I have more respect for Joe Johnson than I'll ever have for he who will not be named in this thread. Thanks Joe Jesus.

[MrDollarBills]

Out of those teams, he should go to OKC. No way he goes to Toronto or Boston surely. Atlanta? They booed JJ for no reason when he played there with the Nets.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/status/702893809412104192[/tweet]

Clown.

He doesn't really have much to give but he'd be good catching and shooting with OKC. Good luck to Joe.

[NyCeEvO]

I respect JJ for playing for the Nets. I appreciated the clutch shots and the one beast playoff run he had.

Since this is a goodbye post, I'll keep things happy and just leave it at that.