The Official Andrea Bargnani Thread

[MrDollarBills]

Analytics dictate that a team should only take dunk shots. (sarcasm)

This is basically the logic behind the anti mid range jumper movement.

[MrDollarBills]

Also, downplaying Rip Hamilton's performance on both ends of the floor is a no no. The offense was bad yeah but imagine how worse it would be without Hamilton running around those screens and hitting those elbow jumpers. That was one of their best offensive weapons outside of Billups, Prince, and Wallace's three point shooting. There were games where Hamilton was flat out killing the opposing defenders with that shot. As a Net fan Prok you should be the last one to downplay that guy, we had some pretty heated contests against that team during that period.

[Prokorov]

Also, downplaying Rip Hamilton's performance on both ends of the floor is a no no. The offense was bad yeah but imagine how worse it would be without Hamilton running around those screens and hitting those elbow jumpers. That was one of their best offensive weapons outside of Billups, Prince, and Wallace's three point shooting. There were games where Hamilton was flat out killing the opposing defenders with that shot. As a Net fan Prok you should be the last one to downplay that guy, we had some pretty heated contests against that team during that period.

im not downplaying rip hamilton's contribution. i was saying that he didnt carry that pistons team like paradise had implied, nor did that team win on its offense... further, to put him in the same breath as those other names.... kobe, wade, dirk... is simply riddiculous.

[Prokorov]

I think people need to really go back and watch games... or go back to the game threads. once the season starts and games are played people will again (this was an issue last year an people unanimously were bashing this team for taking too many long jumpers!) be frustrated with all the long twos.

likewise, go back and watch the games if you can. look at all of brooks, KGs, Thads jumpers. left wide open on the large majority of them. those are NOT creating space, teams live with the result on those.

You arent going to be a successful offense take alot of long twos, even if you shoot them at a high percentage. shooting twos, even at 50%, is not going to result in good offense. PPP/PPG are going to both be very low. its just inefficient, your not drawing fouls with those, your not spacing the floor with those, your not getting 3 points on those.

I find it really suprisng all the people killing jack, brook, bogs for taking long twos last year are now defending taking long twos. and worse, bashing me like it is some unheard of thing to call long 2s the worst shot in basketball or like there isnt an enormous wave both outside and INSIDE organizations with this line of thinking.

[MrDollarBills]

I never killed Jack for taking the top of the key mid range jumper. I'm not sure what his % on it was but I recall that being his most reliable shot.

My stance is, if a guy can hit the shot at a good clip and it is apart of his arsenal, what harm does that shot cause especially if its going in? I would prefer Lopez to get his scores going to the rim but i can live with 1 or 2 jumpers per contest Not sure what Thad's mid range % is, I'd prefer that he attack the rim and take the wide open 3's if he has the shot, I don't recall his midrange game being anywhere near Bargnani's. My comment was mainly about bargs being able to hit that shot at a good clip. If he's in the game and the shot is there, take it. To me that's a good shot, when a guy can consistently hit it at a good clip.

Not every shot is going to be an open dunk or a three. Sometimes the best shot in a possession is what the defense gives you, if Bargs is rolling by the top of the key, he gets hit with a pass and he has space or a wide open look you wouldn't want him to take it when the %'s indicate that he's probably going to make it?

[Prokorov]

I never killed Jack for taking the top of the key mid range jumper. I'm not sure what his % on it was but I recall that being his most reliable shot.

My stance is, if a guy can hit the shot at a good clip and it is apart of his arsenal, what harm does that shot cause especially if its going in? I would prefer Lopez to get his scores going to the rim but i can live with 1 or 2 jumpers per contest Not sure what Thad's mid range % is, I'd prefer that he attack the rim and take the wide open 3's if he has the shot, I don't recall his midrange game being anywhere near Bargnani's. My comment was mainly about bargs being able to hit that shot at a good clip. If he's in the game and the shot is there, take it. To me that's a good shot, when a guy can consistently hit it at a good clip.

Not every shot is going to be an open dunk or a three. Sometimes the best shot in a possession is what the defense gives you, if Bargs is rolling by the top of the key, he gets hit with a pass and he has space or a wide open look you wouldn't want him to take it when the %'s indicate that he's probably going to make it?

the harm is you are going to score less points taking long 2s vs taking any other shot. sure, clock winding down, take it. but it should be a last resort, not a go to. and it doesnt create space, because teams will let you shoot it. it also bails out the defense, as they in turn hold you to a low PPP on that attempt without having to contest it.

from a pure math/analytics standpoint, you would have to shoot something like 54% on long twos for it to make sense taking them (1.08 PPP)

[jbeachboy]

i want bargs to shoot whenever he has an open look from anywhere, jack really isnt much of a 3 point shooter, but if bargs gets back to his old form, he should

[Prokorov]

i want bargs to shoot whenever he has an open look from anywhere, jack really isnt much of a 3 point shooter, but if bargs gets back to his old form, he should

im fine with bargs shooting 3s, thats the shot id want him taking

[Net Sentence]

compare Bargs and Mirza


http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1491/mirza-teletovic/shotchart/



http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1015/andrea-bargnani/shotchart/

If you cant see it I included the links.

Bargs is a much bigger threat then Mirza. Bargs shot well from a number of spots. Mirza was a mess from anywhere other then the FT and the absolute top of the 3 and the corners.

[Paradise]

I never killed Jack for taking the top of the key mid range jumper. I'm not sure what his % on it was but I recall that being his most reliable shot.

My stance is, if a guy can hit the shot at a good clip and it is apart of his arsenal, what harm does that shot cause especially if its going in? I would prefer Lopez to get his scores going to the rim but i can live with 1 or 2 jumpers per contest Not sure what Thad's mid range % is, I'd prefer that he attack the rim and take the wide open 3's if he has the shot, I don't recall his midrange game being anywhere near Bargnani's. My comment was mainly about bargs being able to hit that shot at a good clip. If he's in the game and the shot is there, take it. To me that's a good shot, when a guy can consistently hit it at a good clip.

Not every shot is going to be an open dunk or a three. Sometimes the best shot in a possession is what the defense gives you, if Bargs is rolling by the top of the key, he gets hit with a pass and he has space or a wide open look you wouldn't want him to take it when the %'s indicate that he's probably going to make it?

the harm is you are going to score less points taking long 2s vs taking any other shot. sure, clock winding down, take it. but it should be a last resort, not a go to. and it doesnt create space, because teams will let you shoot it. it also bails out the defense, as they in turn hold you to a low PPP on that attempt without having to contest it.

from a pure math/analytics standpoint, you would have to shoot something like 54% on long twos for it to make sense taking them (1.08 PPP)

Some players are an exception to that.

[MrDollarBills]

I never killed Jack for taking the top of the key mid range jumper. I'm not sure what his % on it was but I recall that being his most reliable shot.

My stance is, if a guy can hit the shot at a good clip and it is apart of his arsenal, what harm does that shot cause especially if its going in? I would prefer Lopez to get his scores going to the rim but i can live with 1 or 2 jumpers per contest Not sure what Thad's mid range % is, I'd prefer that he attack the rim and take the wide open 3's if he has the shot, I don't recall his midrange game being anywhere near Bargnani's. My comment was mainly about bargs being able to hit that shot at a good clip. If he's in the game and the shot is there, take it. To me that's a good shot, when a guy can consistently hit it at a good clip.

Not every shot is going to be an open dunk or a three. Sometimes the best shot in a possession is what the defense gives you, if Bargs is rolling by the top of the key, he gets hit with a pass and he has space or a wide open look you wouldn't want him to take it when the %'s indicate that he's probably going to make it?

the harm is you are going to score less points taking long 2s vs taking any other shot. sure, clock winding down, take it. but it should be a last resort, not a go to. and it doesnt create space, because teams will let you shoot it. it also bails out the defense, as they in turn hold you to a low PPP on that attempt without having to contest it.

from a pure math/analytics standpoint, you would have to shoot something like 54% on long twos for it to make sense taking them (1.08 PPP)

So every time Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant took two dribbles inside the arc, pulled up at midrange they were bailing out the defense?

I am not comparing ANYONE to those two, but the logic that guys who are skilled at taking mid range J's and making them are doing the devil's work flies in the face of greatness that I've seen with my own eyes. There were and will always be top players who rely on those shots to get clutch baskets and dominate. Kevin Garnett was the top of the key jumpshot king. Patrick Ewing used to go for that shot all the time and nail it. You would seriously sit here and say that those players shouldn't have been taking those shots??

This is why analytics usage requires some balance when discussing this sport, and why hall of fame greats bash the hell out of them. There's always exceptions. ALWAYS. The greatest player of all time dominated the sport and he mainly did most of his damage within the area that we'd consider mid range. You'd seriously tell Michael Jordan in his prime "dude...stop taking those midrange J's and fadeaways....you're not being efficient and you're bailing out the d. Take a step back and shoot threes."

[Prokorov]

I never killed Jack for taking the top of the key mid range jumper. I'm not sure what his % on it was but I recall that being his most reliable shot.

My stance is, if a guy can hit the shot at a good clip and it is apart of his arsenal, what harm does that shot cause especially if its going in? I would prefer Lopez to get his scores going to the rim but i can live with 1 or 2 jumpers per contest Not sure what Thad's mid range % is, I'd prefer that he attack the rim and take the wide open 3's if he has the shot, I don't recall his midrange game being anywhere near Bargnani's. My comment was mainly about bargs being able to hit that shot at a good clip. If he's in the game and the shot is there, take it. To me that's a good shot, when a guy can consistently hit it at a good clip.

Not every shot is going to be an open dunk or a three. Sometimes the best shot in a possession is what the defense gives you, if Bargs is rolling by the top of the key, he gets hit with a pass and he has space or a wide open look you wouldn't want him to take it when the %'s indicate that he's probably going to make it?

the harm is you are going to score less points taking long 2s vs taking any other shot. sure, clock winding down, take it. but it should be a last resort, not a go to. and it doesnt create space, because teams will let you shoot it. it also bails out the defense, as they in turn hold you to a low PPP on that attempt without having to contest it.

from a pure math/analytics standpoint, you would have to shoot something like 54% on long twos for it to make sense taking them (1.08 PPP)

Some players are an exception to that.

only the ones who do so much else that it negates inefficient shots.... like getting those possession back with offensive rebounding and defense. bargani i wouldnt count on for that

[Prokorov]

So every time Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant took two dribbles inside the arc, pulled up at midrange they were bailing out the defense?

well, the NBA only started tracking FG by distance since 2002-03, so lets take a look at kobe instead,

On Long twos (16 feet to the 3 point line) Kobe shot 40.4%. He also shot 44.0% on shots 10-15 feet.

So on Long jumpers kobe was good for

0.81 points per possession on long twos
0.88 points per possession on slightly closer jump shot twos

Kobe shot 33.4% from three point range, so on three pointers kobe was good for

1.02 points per possesion on long twos.

Kobe shot 63.4% from the rim, and 59.9% in the paint. so on closer attemps kobe was good for

1.27 points per possession at the rim and 1.19 points per possession in the paint

So year, when kobe pulled up on long twos, he was bailing out the defense. since instead of being a very good elite scorer (1.02-1.27 points per possesion) he was a poor scorer 0.88 points per possesion.

I am not comparing ANYONE to those two, but the logic that guys who are skilled at taking mid range J's and making them are doing the devil's work flies in the face of greatness that I've seen with my own eyes. There were and will always be top players who rely on those shots to get clutch baskets and dominate. Kevin Garnett was the top of the key jumpshot king. Patrick Ewing used to go for that shot all the time and nail it. You would seriously sit here and say that those players shouldn't have been taking those shots??

yes. as shown above, your eyes are lying to you. while sure, kobe has hit tons of long jumpers, overall he didnt shoot them all that well and whats more important is that on long twos he was not just worse as a scorer, but he became a POOR scorer. KG was a top of the key jumpshot king... one of the best... and the reason why he was never an elite scorer, is probably because he relied to heavily on the jump shot and never really developed a low post game. it also is no concidence that garnetts 2 best seasons as a scorer, and the only two where he scored 23 points or more per game, where also the seasons where the fewest % of his FGA came from 16feet to the 3 point line:

02-03: garnett took just 23.4% of his FGA on long twos. he averaged 23.2 PPG
03-04: garnett took just 28.2% of his FGA on long twos. he averaged a career high 24.2 ppg

for his career garnett took 32.4% of his shots on long twos. as mentioned i dont have the numbers on ewing, since they didnt track it back that far.

This is why analytics usage requires some balance when discussing this sport, and why hall of fame greats bash the hell out of them. There's always exceptions. ALWAYS. The greatest player of all time dominated the sport and he mainly did most of his damage within the area that we'd consider mid range. You'd seriously tell Michael Jordan in his prime "dude...stop taking those midrange J's and fadeaways....you're not being efficient and you're bailing out the d. Take a step back and shoot threes."

i dont think jordan did mos tof his damage at mid range. he did most of it at the rim and in the post. he lived at the FT line in an era when guys didnt go to the FT line a ton like todays league.

[Prokorov]

compare Bargs and Mirza


http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1491/mirza-teletovic/shotchart/



http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1015/andrea-bargnani/shotchart/

If you cant see it I included the links.

Bargs is a much bigger threat then Mirza. Bargs shot well from a number of spots. Mirza was a mess from anywhere other then the FT and the absolute top of the 3 and the corners.

looks like bargs loves the left side of the floor, although the majority of his shots come on the right side of the floor. teams must have scouted that and forced him that way? just an observation that stood out.

Mirza was absolutely miserable from the wings. although he did minimize things by shooting basically only 3s and layups. im glad mirza is gone. i hope bargani follows him and we can go after a real stretch 4 liek ryan anderson

[Brissspin]

Hello to all,
I write for the first time on this forum.
I am Italian and have always been a fan of Andrea Bargnani.
Below are two videos summary of his performance in two recent friendly games...road to Eurobasket 2015.


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV8qjbgVoG4[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqnwdRMFn6U[/youtube]

[Brissspin]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oVw0Irvk2U[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcf-4vnEbC4[/youtube]

[kamaze]

Welcome to the board thanks for the Il Mago clips.

[Brissspin]

Welcome to the board thanks for the Il Mago clips.

Thank you

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxJMBcU1mlM[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A6chTVt3aU[/youtube]

IMO If Bargnani continues to play like he did during Eurobasket, the Nets will have done a good deal for the minimum.

[Brissspin]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FesQM219bYo[/youtube]

[MrDollarBills]

Bargnani is going to have to give 100% effort. It doesn't matter how good he looks here in FIBA competition, in practice and in games he will have to play hard or he will be benched. Hollins doesn't tolerate lazy players.