OK, Have to Ask - Nets or Knicks

[MrDollarBills]

sure the players were trying to win.... but they were actively tanking rolling out a d-league roster every night and playing scrubs big minutes and carmello hanging it up early on the season.

Before, all of that the Knicks were 4-28 in the span of October, November and December. The Shump/Smith trade didn't happen until January 7th. Melo was shut down in February.


Calderon/Larkin
Shumpert/Hardaway JR
JR Smith/Early
Melo/Bargnani/Acy
Dalembert/Amare/Aldridge


The current Knicks roster

Calderon/Grant
Afflalo/Galloway
Melo/Derrick Williams/Early
O'Quinn/Porzingis
Lopez

I'm sorry but I don't see how Afflalo and Lopez are going to transform a 4-28 team in one season into a 30-40 win team.

that team was toxic, they made a ton of changes like shipping out chandler and brining in bargs. it fell flat and they moved on.

its less about lopez/afflolo and more about carmello. if carmello is healthy that team wins 40 games or more.

Prok that roster is trash, are you serious? Unless Porzingis hits the ground running and becomes a legit 2nd option who is going to provide scoring on that team? Melo is going to have to shoot 25 times a night just for them to hit the 70 point mark. That isn't a 40 win team...dude if the Nets marched out there with that roster you and I both would be tearing the front office to shreds and attacking every homer on here for being too optimistic

[MrDollarBills]

i love how the knicks top 10 picks and first round rookies are "years away" but our undrafted guys are like these impact players this year.

i know everyone hates the knicks, i do too. but if carmello is back and healthy that team will win over 40 games. you laugh at afflolo and call him a backup. what exactly is jarret jack? thad young? those guys arent really any better then afflolo.

lopez isnt great, but he is a lot more respectable then the trash the knicks rolled out at center last season.

the team gets a new start this year. a motivated healthy carmello is too good a player not to win 40 games in the east. that dude was mentally beat. i expect him to come back and be the top 8 player he was a couple years ago

Who said anything about undrafted guys being impact players? I want to see this. I think the most anyone says is that some of these guys have some tools that can be developed possibly. No one has come out and said that Boatright or Alexander are going to be impact players, hell we don't even know if they'll make the team

The only guy who I expect to have an impact right away is RHJ because I think his skillset, frame, and athleticism will net him playing time from the gate. But even then, my expectations are limited because of his inexperience at the pro level and he has not proven that he can shoot. Other than that, hell I just hope that Boatright can show something against NBA talent in camp to warrant a roster spot because we need a 3rd PG and a shooter at guard, but I don't even know if he can make it in the league because his size is seriously an issue.

Afflalo is on the decline. Robin's a good dirty work guy but that won't equate to wins if Carmelo is being swarmed offensively because no one else is a threat to score.

I love how you dog Thad, but want to seriously sell people on how great Afflalo and Robin are. I'll take Thad over both players hands down

[Prokorov]

Before, all of that the Knicks were 4-28 in the span of October, November and December. The Shump/Smith trade didn't happen until January 7th. Melo was shut down in February.


Calderon/Larkin
Shumpert/Hardaway JR
JR Smith/Early
Melo/Bargnani/Acy
Dalembert/Amare/Aldridge


The current Knicks roster

Calderon/Grant
Afflalo/Galloway
Melo/Derrick Williams/Early
O'Quinn/Porzingis
Lopez

I'm sorry but I don't see how Afflalo and Lopez are going to transform a 4-28 team in one season into a 30-40 win team.

that team was toxic, they made a ton of changes like shipping out chandler and brining in bargs. it fell flat and they moved on.

its less about lopez/afflolo and more about carmello. if carmello is healthy that team wins 40 games or more.

Prok that roster is trash, are you serious? Unless Porzingis hits the ground running and becomes a legit 2nd option who is going to provide scoring on that team? Melo is going to have to shoot 25 times a night just for them to hit the 70 point mark. That isn't a 40 win team...dude if the Nets marched out there with that roster you and I both would be tearing the front office to shreds and attacking every homer on here for being too optimistic

i never claimed the knicks to be some championship team. finishing with 40 wins the east is no monumental accomplishment. and i thnk everyone is really underrating carmello. if he is back healthy and with his mind right and returns to a top 10 player, then it wont matter if he has mostly trash around him. lets not forget he is a couple season removed from carry tyson chandler and a group of bums to the #2 seed and 50+ wins.

[MrDollarBills]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2013.html

^that roster takes a dump over what they have now, and Melo is now older so you can't expect his production to jump up to a level where he can carry an inferior roster to a 30 win jump.

[Prokorov]

Who said anything about undrafted guys being impact players? I want to see this. I think the most anyone says is that some of these guys have some tools that can be developed possibly. No one has come out and said that Boatright or Alexander are going to be impact players, hell we don't even know if they'll make the team

.

net sentence has alexander as a stud, and an impact guy from day 1. he compared RHJ to scottie pippen. you and others had boatright as a some guy we need to get on the floor. read the summer league thread and the boatright thread. people have these guys being in the rotaiton and making an impact this season. especially RHJ. yet Grant/Prigs cant do the same?

Afflalo is on the decline. Robin's a good dirty work guy but that won't equate to wins if Carmelo is being swarmed offensively because no one else is a threat to score.

I love how after 1 down season afflolo is "on the decline" 2 years ago he had the best season of his career. he has 1 season after that where he didnt play as well and all of a sudden he is on the decline?

he didnt have as big a role in portlant, but he still shot the ball well. he can still shoot the 3 and can still score. he isnt a star but he isnt some bench scrub.

I love how you dog Thad, but want to seriously sell people on how great Afflalo and Robin are. I'll take Thad over both players hands down

1) i dont "dog thad". my reason for not wanting thad here are 100% cap related.

2) thad is no better then afflolo or lopez. the guy gets insanely overrated here.

what makes thad clearly better then afflolo? their past 2 seasons are pretty similar.

Thad last 2 seasons:

13-14: 17/6 on 16 PER 51 TS%
14-15: 14/5 on 15 PER 50 TS%

AA last 2 seasons:

13-14: 18/4 on 16 PER 57 TS%
14-15: 13/3 on 11 PER 53 TS%

It isnt like thad is a good defender where his defense makes the difference. beyond that similar raw output, thad a bit more efficient aaron better shooting.

lets at least be fair here. if you want to minimize or downplay the knicks role guys and rookies, you have to do the same with the nets guys.

[Prokorov]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2013.html

^that roster takes a dump over what they have now, and Melo is now older so you can't expect his production to jump up to a level where he can carry an inferior roster to a 30 win jump.

Carmello is 31, and he is rested. its not like he is some washed up 35 year old or is at the paul pierce stage of his career. if he is healthy, he is a top 10 player.

the knicks roster a couple years ago was better. it was also what, a 55 win team? im not saying they will be a 55 win team. im saying carmello has shown he can overcome a lesser roster. carmello is getting majorly underrated. the guy is an MVP calibur player when healthy.

[Net Sentence]

i love how the knicks top 10 picks and first round rookies are "years away" but our undrafted guys are like these impact players this year.

i know everyone hates the knicks, i do too. but if carmello is back and healthy that team will win over 40 games. you laugh at afflolo and call him a backup. what exactly is jarret jack? thad young? those guys arent really any better then afflolo.

lopez isnt great, but he is a lot more respectable then the trash the knicks rolled out at center last season.

the team gets a new start this year. a motivated healthy carmello is too good a player not to win 40 games in the east. that dude was mentally beat. i expect him to come back and be the top 8 player he was a couple years ago

I swear you are trolling with this post. The Knicks gets "a new start this year" you say. Melo is going to be "motivated". Melo was "mentally beat". Funny how you are speaking in hyperbole and opptimism for the Knicks but are the first one to shoot it down when someone says it about the Nets. You dont think the entire Nets roster is "mentally beat" after dealing with DWill for years? Doesnt every team get a "new start this year" or is that reserved for New York? Do the Nets not have good players like Johnson and Lopez who will be "motivated" coming into this season?

Porzingas is generously listed at 230 lbs. He is going to need to gain 30+ pounds to compete with NBA caliber bigs. Rondae has much more strength then Porzingas and is by far more NBA ready. That isnt suggesting that he is a better player. I think Prozingas is going to be very good but the fact remains he is grossly undersized. Say what you want about Alexander but he is strong enough to play in the NBA right now and I always said he was also a few years away.

There is no way in hell the Knicks win 30 more games then last year and I will beat you any amount of money on it.

[Prokorov]

i love how the knicks top 10 picks and first round rookies are "years away" but our undrafted guys are like these impact players this year.

i know everyone hates the knicks, i do too. but if carmello is back and healthy that team will win over 40 games. you laugh at afflolo and call him a backup. what exactly is jarret jack? thad young? those guys arent really any better then afflolo.

lopez isnt great, but he is a lot more respectable then the trash the knicks rolled out at center last season.

the team gets a new start this year. a motivated healthy carmello is too good a player not to win 40 games in the east. that dude was mentally beat. i expect him to come back and be the top 8 player he was a couple years ago

I swear you are trolling with this post. The Knicks gets "a new start this year" you say. Melo is going to be "motivated". Melo was "mentally beat". Funny how you are speaking in hyperbole and opptimism for the Knicks but are the first one to shoot it down when someone says it about the Nets. You dont think the entire Nets roster is "mentally beat" after dealing with DWill for years? Doesnt every team get a "new start this year" or is that reserved for New York? Do the Nets not have good players like Johnson and Lopez who will be "motivated" coming into this season?

Porzingas is generously listed at 230 lbs. He is going to need to gain 30+ pounds to compete with NBA caliber bigs. Rondae has much more strength then Porzingas and is by far more NBA ready. That isnt suggesting that he is a better player. I think Prozingas is going to be very good but the fact remains he is grossly undersized. Say what you want about Alexander but he is strong enough to play in the NBA right now and I always said he was also a few years away.

There is no way in hell the Knicks win 30 more games then last year and I will beat you any amount of money on it.

what the knicks won last year is irrelevant. they are going to have 3 new starters. and 5-6 new rotation players overall. it is a completely different team for the most part. whether you think the knicks will suck, be decent, or be good should have little to do with last year.

saying the knicks wont suck isnt trolling.

saying the nets wont be a playoff team isnt trolling.

saying that RHJ isnt the next pipper, trob isnt the next rodman, alexander isnt the next elton brand isnt trolling.

you can disagree with my opinions. im certainly not always right. but please dont give me this "trolling crap".


to me the knicks and nets fortunes comes down to 1 thing. the knicks have carmello, who i believe is a top 10 player. the nets have lopez, who i do not believe is a top 10 player. outside of brook/carmello the nets/knicks are pretty much role guys and young nobodies. if lopez mans up and becomes the 24/12 guy he is capable of being, and does it for a season instead of 6 weeks, then we can be a 40+ win team as well.

[Starski]

Im starting to think Prok hates the Nets lol....

I'd say the odds are DEF in our favor to have a better record.

[kerry kittles]

FYI Vegas projected over/under win totals:

Nets 32.5
Knicks 31.5

So if you think it's a lock that the Knicks win less than 30 games and would bet any amount of money here's your chance.

I think the two teams will be close like those odds suggest.

[Net Sentence]

i love how the knicks top 10 picks and first round rookies are "years away" but our undrafted guys are like these impact players this year.

i know everyone hates the knicks, i do too. but if carmello is back and healthy that team will win over 40 games. you laugh at afflolo and call him a backup. what exactly is jarret jack? thad young? those guys arent really any better then afflolo.

lopez isnt great, but he is a lot more respectable then the trash the knicks rolled out at center last season.

the team gets a new start this year. a motivated healthy carmello is too good a player not to win 40 games in the east. that dude was mentally beat. i expect him to come back and be the top 8 player he was a couple years ago

I swear you are trolling with this post. The Knicks gets "a new start this year" you say. Melo is going to be "motivated". Melo was "mentally beat". Funny how you are speaking in hyperbole and opptimism for the Knicks but are the first one to shoot it down when someone says it about the Nets. You dont think the entire Nets roster is "mentally beat" after dealing with DWill for years? Doesnt every team get a "new start this year" or is that reserved for New York? Do the Nets not have good players like Johnson and Lopez who will be "motivated" coming into this season?

Porzingas is generously listed at 230 lbs. He is going to need to gain 30+ pounds to compete with NBA caliber bigs. Rondae has much more strength then Porzingas and is by far more NBA ready. That isnt suggesting that he is a better player. I think Prozingas is going to be very good but the fact remains he is grossly undersized. Say what you want about Alexander but he is strong enough to play in the NBA right now and I always said he was also a few years away.

There is no way in hell the Knicks win 30 more games then last year and I will beat you any amount of money on it.

what the knicks won last year is irrelevant. they are going to have 3 new starters. and 5-6 new rotation players overall. it is a completely different team for the most part. whether you think the knicks will suck, be decent, or be good should have little to do with last year.

saying the knicks wont suck isnt trolling.

saying the nets wont be a playoff team isnt trolling.

saying that RHJ isnt the next pipper, trob isnt the next rodman, alexander isnt the next elton brand isnt trolling.

you can disagree with my opinions. im certainly not always right. but please dont give me this "trolling crap".


to me the knicks and nets fortunes comes down to 1 thing. the knicks have carmello, who i believe is a top 10 player. the nets have lopez, who i do not believe is a top 10 player. outside of brook/carmello the nets/knicks are pretty much role guys and young nobodies. if lopez mans up and becomes the 24/12 guy he is capable of being, and does it for a season instead of 6 weeks, then we can be a 40+ win team as well.

You feel locked in to the Knicks roster because you championed their approach in Free Agency and you feel it's too late to turn back and admit it didnt work.

Melo hasnt been a top 10 player in 2-3 years. Telling me about how many new guys they have added is reason why they will struggle not a reason why they will be better.

You like to misquote me on what I said about RHJ, Alexander and T-Rob. I said their UPSIDE are Pippen, Brand and Rodman. Alexander will be lucky to make the team. if he does he wont play unless we have catastrophic injuries. T-Rob has the pedigree to be a very good player. RHJ is going to contribute immediately and still has a ton of offensive upside. I think when we look back at this draft he will be considered one of the top 7-10 players who came out of this draft.

A lot of bigs take a couple of years to develop in the NBA which is consistent with my opinion on guys like Porzingas and McCullough. Those tall lanky guys are the biggest risk/reward types in the NBA. For every Anthony Davis and Marcus Camby there are 10 Anthony Randolphs, Jonathan Benders, Brandon Wrights, John Hensons who never make it at all or take 5+ years to develop. Quincy Miller is a good example of one of these guys. He is just starting to fill out; reports say he has put on 20+ pounds since the end of last season. I would take him over McCullough, Karasev, Markel and Boatright if we had to make cuts today. That's not to say that he is going to be part of the rotation though. As of now I see the lions share of the minutes going to

Lopez - 7 years experience
Johnson - 14 years experience
Thad - 8 years experience
Bogdanovic - 1 year of NBA experience but has been a pro overseas for years
Jack - 10 years experience
RHJ - ROOKIE
Bargnani - 9 years experience
Larkin - 2 years experience
Ellington - 6 years experience

Anyone else who gets minutes will be fighting for those minutes all season. This is also the pecking order on team. The top 5 guys were all here last season. RHJ is a rookie but wont really be expected to do anything more then be athletic and get rebounds, steals and deflections. Bargnani has played with Jack and Ellington has played for Hollins before. Larkin is the other unknown besides RHJ but Jack has shown that he can play big minutes while also being durable. Oh yea, our coach has been successful for a long time in the NBA.

Compare that to the Knicks.

Their coach is basically a 2nd year rookie since they didnt give him a chance to win last season. Melo is coming off of injury and is rumored to be pissed about the prospects of this roster. The only returning starter besides Melo is Calderon who is one of the worst starting PGs in the NBA. Their other 3 starters are Robin Lopez (borderline starter who has never averaged more then 11.3 PPG or 8.5 RPG in a season), Derrick Williams (career backup) and Afflalo (borderline starter). They are going to need heavy contributions from 2 rookies (Porzingas and Grant), 2 second year players (Cleanthony Early-2nd round pick, Galloway-undrafted). This would be the equivalent of the Nets relying on Alexander, Markel, Boatright and Quincy Miller to make heavy contributions.

[Prokorov]

You feel locked in to the Knicks roster because you championed their approach in Free Agency and you feel it's too late to turn back and admit it didnt work.

no i dont. and I have no problem admitting when i was wrong, as i have here in the past time and time again. so stop putting words into my mouth or giving me this crap that im a troll or some know it all who doesnt admit fault.

The knicks struck out in free agency. that doesnt mean they will be a 20 win team again.

Melo hasnt been a top 10 player in 2-3 years. Telling me about how many new guys they have added is reason why they will struggle not a reason why they will be better.

Carmello was a top 10 just 2 years ago, and his drop off from there is still an outstanding player. its not like he turned into paul pierce. the guy is still an elite scorer. healthy and rested i think he gets back to being the top 10 player he was just 2 years ago.

You like to misquote me on what I said about RHJ, Alexander and T-Rob. I said their UPSIDE are Pippen, Brand and Rodman. Alexander will be lucky to make the team. if he does he wont play unless we have catastrophic injuries. T-Rob has the pedigree to be a very good player. RHJ is going to contribute immediately and still has a ton of offensive upside. I think when we look back at this draft he will be considered one of the top 7-10 players who came out of this draft.

you put words in my mouth i never said and then complain about mis quoting? potential, upside however you want to do it. you are comparing these guys to hall of famers and top 50 players of all time. it is absurd.

Lopez - 7 years experience
Johnson - 14 years experience
Thad - 8 years experience
Bogdanovic - 1 year of NBA experience but has been a pro overseas for years
Jack - 10 years experience
RHJ - ROOKIE
Bargnani - 9 years experience
Larkin - 2 years experience
Ellington - 6 years experience

Anyone else who gets minutes will be fighting for those minutes all season. This is also the pecking order on team. The top 5 guys were all here last season. RHJ is a rookie but wont really be expected to do anything more then be athletic and get rebounds, steals and deflections. Bargnani has played with Jack and Ellington has played for Hollins before. Larkin is the other unknown besides RHJ but Jack has shown that he can play big minutes while also being durable. Oh yea, our coach has been successful for a long time in the NBA.

Compare that to the Knicks.

Their coach is basically a 2nd year rookie since they didnt give him a chance to win last season. Melo is coming off of injury and is rumored to be pissed about the prospects of this roster. The only returning starter besides Melo is Calderon who is one of the worst starting PGs in the NBA. Their other 3 starters are Robin Lopez (borderline starter who has never averaged more then 11.3 PPG or 8.5 RPG in a season), Derrick Williams (career backup) and Afflalo (borderline starter). They are going to need heavy contributions from 2 rookies (Porzingas and Grant), 2 second year players (Cleanthony Early-2nd round pick, Galloway-undrafted). This would be the equivalent of the Nets relying on Alexander, Markel, Boatright and Quincy Miller to make heavy contributions.

you can make any team look bad or good when being biased and only showing one side of it. carmello is old and decling, yet joe is "an experience 14 year veteran". does it matter that bargani has played with jack before if bargani stunk? hollins coached longer then jason kidd too, but kidd had a better record last year. you tout jacks durable, but dont mention any of our injury prone players.

to me it boils down to this. the knicks have a top 10 player in Carmello. we dont. if carmello stinks it up, then the knicks wont win 40 games and i will be wrong. i think he comes back and has a good season. i think lopez is a good fit there. i think carmello is good enough where he doesnt need a ton to get to 40 wins. if lopez can be 70% of what chandler was i think they will have a winning record.

you focus on all the knicks issues, and paint it as if our only issue is larkin being an unknown. we could have arguably the worst PG rotation in the NBA. we dont have a starting PG. we could be one of, if not the worst 3 point shooting team in the NBA. our depth consisnts of late round pick rookies/second year players and former busts.

[Prokorov]

Im starting to think Prok hates the Nets lol....

I'd say the odds are DEF in our favor to have a better record.

i love the nets. i watch every game, some multiple times. im a season ticket holder who goes to 20 games a year despite living just outside boston. I've been going to nets games since my church started getting us tickets when i was in second grade. ive been through alot worse situations then this with this team. and been a fan for nearly every year the team has been in the NBA.

I know the ups and downs of this team.

I'm not some johnny come lately fan who rooted for them once the kidd era started and just blow sunshine all over the place like some blind homer. if the team is good, ill say it. if the team is bad, ill say it.

the outcome this year is bleak. i think things could get alot better starting next year and beyond. but im not going to sit here and tell you a team starting jarret jack with lopez as its only real legit talent is going to be some 40-45 win team.

ill be here every game thread rooting this team on til the final buzzer. that doesnt mean i think we are some lock playoff team.

if you want to just talk nets with homers who believe the nets will win the division and that every net player is good then you are looking for netsdaily not realgm

[Prokorov]

FYI Vegas projected over/under win totals:

Nets 32.5

that seems like an accurate line. if you told me lopez plays 75+ games id take the over thinking we'd we 33-36 games. but too much rides on his health for that.

knicks at 31.5 basically is betting on carmello. there entire hopes are on him returning to MVP form and playing 75 games.

[MrDollarBills]

If Lopez beasts for 85-90% of the season like we saw during last year's playoff push then I'd give this team a chance to get over 32 wins, I think we'd actually break 40. Off top, I say we win 33 and miss the Postseason. If lopez goes down, god have mercy we'll be a 17 win team

[jbeachboy]

I like that the team is trying to get young prospects with upside and potential along with some nice young vets that wanted to be here who can fit in well here that still have some upside as well than overpaid vets who are washed up

[kamaze]

i love how the knicks top 10 picks and first round rookies are "years away" but our undrafted guys are like these impact players this year.

i know everyone hates the knicks, i do too. but if carmello is back and healthy that team will win over 40 games. you laugh at afflolo and call him a backup. what exactly is jarret jack? thad young? those guys arent really any better then afflolo.

lopez isnt great, but he is a lot more respectable then the trash the knicks rolled out at center last season.

the team gets a new start this year. a motivated healthy carmello is too good a player not to win 40 games in the east. that dude was mentally beat. i expect him to come back and be the top 8 player he was a couple years ago

I swear you are trolling with this post. The Knicks gets "a new start this year" you say. Melo is going to be "motivated". Melo was "mentally beat". Funny how you are speaking in hyperbole and opptimism for the Knicks but are the first one to shoot it down when someone says it about the Nets. You dont think the entire Nets roster is "mentally beat" after dealing with DWill for years? Doesnt every team get a "new start this year" or is that reserved for New York? Do the Nets not have good players like Johnson and Lopez who will be "motivated" coming into this season?

Porzingas is generously listed at 230 lbs. He is going to need to gain 30+ pounds to compete with NBA caliber bigs. Rondae has much more strength then Porzingas and is by far more NBA ready. That isnt suggesting that he is a better player. I think Prozingas is going to be very good but the fact remains he is grossly undersized. Say what you want about Alexander but he is strong enough to play in the NBA right now and I always said he was also a few years away.

There is no way in hell the Knicks win 30 more games then last year and I will beat you any amount of money on it.

what the knicks won last year is irrelevant. they are going to have 3 new starters. and 5-6 new rotation players overall. it is a completely different team for the most part. whether you think the knicks will suck, be decent, or be good should have little to do with last year.

saying the knicks wont suck isnt trolling.

saying the nets wont be a playoff team isnt trolling.

saying that RHJ isnt the next pipper, trob isnt the next rodman, alexander isnt the next elton brand isnt trolling.

you can disagree with my opinions. im certainly not always right. but please dont give me this "trolling crap".


to me the knicks and nets fortunes comes down to 1 thing. the knicks have carmello, who i believe is a top 10 player. the nets have lopez, who i do not believe is a top 10 player. outside of brook/carmello the nets/knicks are pretty much role guys and young nobodies. if lopez mans up and becomes the 24/12 guy he is capable of being, and does it for a season instead of 6 weeks, then we can be a 40+ win team as well.

Carmelo is a superstar but he was on that team that won 17 games so his individual stats don't add up to wins and with him they haven't made the playoffs in 2 years...in the east where you can be doo doo and make the playoffs.
The last 4 years the Nets have made the playoffs.

LH and his system are proven in Memphis so much so that the players spoke up about playing the grind it out style that he brought with a new coach.
The triangle was a disaster last year ask Shane Larkin what he thinks about it. That offense and coach was a big reason they played so bad. 17 wins!

[Prokorov]

Carmelo is a superstar but he was on that team that won 17 games so his individual stats don't add up to wins and with him they haven't made the playoffs in 2 years...in the east where you can be doo doo and make the playoffs.
The last 4 years the Nets have made the playoffs.

LH and his system are proven in Memphis so much so that the players spoke up about playing the grind it out style that he brought with a new coach.
The triangle was a disaster last year ask Shane Larkin what he thinks about it. That offense and coach was a big reason they played so bad. 17 wins!

the rosters were completely different. the knicks will have 3 new starters plus presumably carmello for a full season as well as 3-4 new rotational players. i dont think you can really use last year as a gauge when they will have a new starting SG, PF, and C. You might think the knicks will be good, you might think they will be bad, but going off what they did last year seems silly given the roster has been almost entirely turned over.

So hollins track record for his system in memphis counts, but the triangle that won phil jackson 9 titles doesnt count. got it.

ANY system was going to be a disaster for the knicks last year. they rolled out a d-league roster.

[kamaze]

the rosters were completely different. the knicks will have 3 new starters plus presumably carmello for a full season as well as 3-4 new rotational players. i dont think you can really use last year as a gauge when they will have a new starting SG, PF, and C. You might think the knicks will be good, you might think they will be bad, but going off what they did last year seems silly given the roster has been almost entirely turned over.

So hollins track record for his system in memphis counts, but the triangle that won phil jackson 9 titles doesnt count. got it.

ANY system was going to be a disaster for the knicks last year. they rolled out a d-league roster.

The players are different hopefully better suited for the offense. Denver got better when they traded Melo he's a great individual stat guy, a scorer not the type to make it easier for new players to fit in. He's his best when he has leaders around him and he can just do what he does (I'm thinking about the year they had Kidd, Rasheed, Tyson Chandler).

Lopez and Aflalo are good defensive players not the type to take scoring load off of Carmelo who's age is showing that's what he needs.
Who's the power forward they're going to start? I hope you're not talking about Derrick Williams that guy's horrible don't believe me just watch him.

I don't understand why you want to throw out last year's 17 wins as if that's not who they are. The last 2 years they were bad with last year being their worst in decades. This year they roll out the same coach trying to run the same tired offense that is hard to learn (player's complained about it) and it doesn't work.
The triangle was great when PHIl coached it but the game has changed he's stuck in the past. It's a 3 point shooting, pick and roll league and last year the dope said 3 point shooting teams don't win when the teams in the finals were top in that category with the better shooting team winning.

A lot of teams have tried running the triangle they all failed how patient do you think they'll be with another bad year?

[Lamak]

I would go with the Nets having a better roster. Melo coming off a knee surgery will be the main factor here, but I think people are really underrating Thaddeus Young. The guy can ball