Thaddeus Young Traded To Pacers For #20, Future 2nd Rounder

[vincecarter4pres]

I don't even hate the idea of replacing him with Jordan Hill or Derrick Williams

[Prokorov]

we can afford anyone. my top choices would be...

Horford obviously

Marvin Williams - plus defender who shot 40% from three. He was a great fit with al jefferson, i think it would work with brook who plays similar to al offensively.

Jared Dudley - another excellent 3 point shooter can defend multiple spots. rebounding is meh but he would come on the cheap.

Anthony Toliver - 3 and D power forward... kind of like mirza though he is hot or cold but would come cheap.



for me id rather pay good money for horford or go with a cheaper guy who fits the 3 and d type mold. williams might be too costly but if he came at 14M id do that

Love Jared Dudley. I have also mentioned him in the Offseason thread. Outside of his down year with the Clippers, he has always been a net positive on the floor. He can hit the three, defend multiple positions and truly is a vet who is able to lead our young players. And on a recent podcast he said that one of his main goals for the offseason is to improve his ability to play as a smallball 4. Even without actually practicing it, he has already done a good job.

Prok, what do you think about Terrence Jones? I think he could be had for Thad-level money while bringing some extra skills to the table. He is longer, can block shots, is a better athlete and can hit a three if left wide open. This could actually turn into adding a younger and better player while also getting a first round pick.

to me terrance jones is just a younger thad with mroe defense... id be ok with him at 8-10 million as a worst case option... but the whole point of moving on from thad was to A) invest that money into wing instead of PF and B) to get a floor spacer at PF/defender at PF.

to me dudley is that fit. jones i like, but not really for this team.

[CalamityX12]

Free Agency still in play before final grade, IMO, on the thad trade.

Horford is the top choice on paper for me.... for obvious reasons

Ryan Anderson brings what you want in terms of stretching the floor out. Adds a shooter and scorer to a potential starting lineup.

Noah comes in 3rd for me, still think he and Brook could work it out. Defensively we'll be much better.

No Dudley for me... his game is wearing off and would be viewed as a cheap option IMO for me.

Other options still out there... Could dig Derrick Williams, Terrence Jones, Marvin Williams etc...

[SpeedyG]

no, thats not thad. that doesnt fit what they are trying to buiild. which is a roster with 2 way guys who can shoot. thats not thad. he doesnt fit what you want from a big in todays league. again, you can love thad but at the end of the day he just really doesnt bring much that helps in the W/L column unless you are using him as a role guy/6th man.... which is good for indy cause he doesnt have to be a top 3 or 4 guy for them. for us he does and he is a bad fit next to brook, our best player.

we are better off investing thads 12M into the wing and into shooters.

Thad's lack of outside shooting skill has nothing to do with organizational culture.

they are not just trying to build a culture they are trying to build a team.... of guys who shoot and defend. more modern day era types.

That's not what the comment is about though. The guy I quoted specifically talked about culture.

If you REALLY believe that Thad had no future in this team because he can't shoot (despite his off-court leadership and things he bring to the culture especially with so many young guys in the roster), should we pack RHJ's bag then?

There's SOOO much love for Rondo and Rubio too...two guys who have suspect jumpshots at an even far more important "outside" shooting positions. And in Rondo, not only is he an inconsistent shooter...worse is he's a reluctant shooter. And don't even get me started on that FT%.

[MrDollarBills]

Thad's lack of outside shooting skill has nothing to do with organizational culture.

they are not just trying to build a culture they are trying to build a team.... of guys who shoot and defend. more modern day era types.

That's not what the comment is about though. The guy I quoted specifically talked about culture.

If you REALLY believe that Thad had no future in this team because he can't shoot (despite his off-court leadership and things he bring to the culture especially with so many young guys in the roster), should we pack RHJ's bag then?

There's SOOO much love for Rondo and Rubio too...two guys who have suspect jumpshots at an even far more important "outside" shooting positions. And in Rondo, not only is he an inconsistent shooter...worse is he's a reluctant shooter. And don't even get me started on that FT%.

Its personal bias. How can he say we need more modern day types when the guy he wants to get so badly posts poor metrics on both sides of the ball? this is what I was saying, he kills Thad for his shortcomings but ignores it for other players when he personally likes them. it makes for a very dishonest discussion.

[Prokorov]

If you REALLY believe that Thad had no future in this team because he can't shoot (despite his off-court leadership and things he bring to the culture especially with so many young guys in the roster), should we pack RHJ's bag then?

i didnt say it was about shooting. i said it was about shooting and defending. and yes i think that along with his salary being better utilized invested at the wing spot are why he got traded.

RHJ doesnt shoot but he does defend and at an elite level. and he is making 11M less then thad.

There's SOOO much love for Rondo and Rubio too...two guys who have suspect jumpshots at an even far more important "outside" shooting positions. And in Rondo, not only is he an inconsistent shooter...worse is he's a reluctant shooter. And don't even get me started on that FT%.

Rondo sot 37% from three last year on like 170 attemps. And led the NBA in assists. he does thing you want your PG to do. Thad doesnt do the things you want a PF to do.

Rubio you have a legit point... but id bring rubio in because i think he would sell out the building and become a complete rockstar in NY. barclays was the loudest i ever seen it, rooting and oohing and ahhing at an opponents player when the wolves came to town and he put on a show. for me rubio is more about building the fanbase and brining a buzz to the team. on court your right though.

to me thad is good guy but he brings very little to the table. he doesnt shoot, isnt a smallball guy, doesnt defend and everything he does mirrors what brook does. he doesnt cover any of brooks weak spots. he scores but inefficiently, its not like he is a prime zack randolf killing it in the post on high efficiency.

give me someone like jared dudley who spaces the floor and gaurd multiple positions for 5-75% of what thad makes and invest 30-40 million into the wings who have a bigger impact on the game in todays nba

[Prokorov]

Its personal bias. How can he say we need more modern day types when the guy he wants to get so badly posts poor metrics on both sides of the ball? this is what I was saying, he kills Thad for his shortcomings but ignores it for other players when he personally likes them. it makes for a very dishonest discussion.

Rondo is a perfect fit. nba leader in asssts, top 5 in hockey assists, looks to have become a reliable 3 point shooter. the only bias is you, youve come out and said you dont like the guy.

its not really debatable with thad. he led the league in nothing. he scored inefficiently. he did nothing you want from a modern day
PF. there is a reason he is gone despite everyone from marks to atkinson talking about how much they like him... and that reason is he doesnt space the floor, doesnt defend, and it isnt worth investing 12M in him over that money going towards a wing.

you can not like it, but thats the reality. otherwise he would still be here

[Prokorov]

Free Agency still in play before final grade, IMO, on the thad trade.

Horford is the top choice on paper for me.... for obvious reasons

Ryan Anderson brings what you want in terms of stretching the floor out. Adds a shooter and scorer to a potential starting lineup.

Noah comes in 3rd for me, still think he and Brook could work it out. Defensively we'll be much better.

No Dudley for me... his game is wearing off and would be viewed as a cheap option IMO for me.

Other options still out there... Could dig Derrick Williams, Terrence Jones, Marvin Williams etc...

i dont see noah and lopez fitting. noah would need to play PF and that would work out like when KG was here. the KG/Brook lineup sucked. we moved KG to center and he was back to being a beast defensively. i like noah as a backup though.

Dudley being a cheap option is the whole point. allows you to invest that money into wings insted. i dont now about dudleys game wearing off... he shot 42% from three and played the second most mintues of his career

[MrDollarBills]

Its personal bias. How can he say we need more modern day types when the guy he wants to get so badly posts poor metrics on both sides of the ball? this is what I was saying, he kills Thad for his shortcomings but ignores it for other players when he personally likes them. it makes for a very dishonest discussion.

Rondo is a perfect fit. nba leader in asssts, top 5 in hockey assists, looks to have become a reliable 3 point shooter. the only bias is you, youve come out and said you dont like the guy.

its not really debatable with thad. he led the league in nothing. he scored inefficiently. he did nothing you want from a modern day
PF. there is a reason he is gone despite everyone from marks to atkinson talking about how much they like him... and that reason is he doesnt space the floor, doesnt defend, and it isnt worth investing 12M in him over that money going towards a wing.

you can not like it, but thats the reality. otherwise he would still be here

Why don't you discuss Rondo's negative RAPM numbers if there is no bias here?

I don't like the guy for this team if he can't control himself. Otherwise I'd have no problem with him regardless of his faults because he and Brook would be killer on P n R.

[Prokorov]

Why don't you discuss Rondo's negative RAPM numbers if there is no bias here?

i have... in the rondo thread. this is the thad young trade thread

Thad and ondo are 2 completely different things. regardless of your opinion on rondo one way or another, doesnt change that thad doesnt fit this team for short or long term success. his money is better utilized invested at SG/SF and a PF who could shoot or is a plus defender would be a much better fit next to lopez.

i mean that much should be clear. they didnt trade him cause they didnt like him, they all raved about him. this came down to basketball on court stuff and about wisely moving our cap space from front court to the wings

[jbeachboy]

prok, thad did score efficiently, he just was flawed shooter, passer, and defender, he had great value for his contract.

[MrDollarBills]

Why don't you discuss Rondo's negative RAPM numbers if there is no bias here?

i have... in the rondo thread. this is the thad young trade thread

Thad and ondo are 2 completely different things. regardless of your opinion on rondo one way or another, doesnt change that thad doesnt fit this team for short or long term success. his money is better utilized invested at SG/SF and a PF who could shoot or is a plus defender would be a much better fit next to lopez.

i mean that much should be clear. they didnt trade him cause they didnt like him, they all raved about him. this came down to basketball on court stuff and about wisely moving our cap space from front court to the wings

I have no issue with trading Thad.

[Prokorov]

prok, thad did score efficiently, he just was flawed shooter, passer, and defender, he had great value for his contract.

15 ppg on 52 TS% and 13.5 PER. that is below average effiency. he wasnt some horrible chucker, but he was inefficienct

[MrDollarBills]

Thad's PER was 17.5 prok

[Prokorov]

Thad's PER was 17.5 prok

had him mixed with Lin...

17.5 is petty solid efficinecy... so more solid efficincy with poor shooting.

either way, same situation. he gives you mediocure scoring without spacing the floor of giving you D or anything you want from a modern day PF.

its not a loss. it wont effect us W/L wise, future wise, development wise, etc..

[MrDollarBills]

Thad's PER was 17.5 prok

had him mixed with Lin...

17.5 is petty solid efficinecy... so more solid efficincy with poor shooting.

either way, same situation. he gives you mediocure scoring without spacing the floor of giving you D or anything you want from a modern day PF.

its not a loss. it wont effect us W/L wise, future wise, development wise, etc..

Thad was a good player.

The problem is, we are so devoid of talent that he ended up being our 2nd best player which is a disaster when in reality he should be your 5th-6th best player on a good team.

Now, can we replace him in FA? Probably. But we need to really land some solid C tiers on the wing, at PG, and at PF for this to really turn around quickly.

[SpeedyG]

i didnt say it was about shooting. i said it was about shooting and defending. and yes i think that along with his salary being better utilized invested at the wing spot are why he got traded.

RHJ doesnt shoot but he does defend and at an elite level. and he is making 11M less then thad.

Fair enough, but why the love fest then for Rondo? To me, he's on the same line as Thad, maybe better. But he's just like Thad in that he's a gambler. I don't think Rondo is elite man-to-man (perhaps if he chooses to, but we really haven't seen that, and the advanced metrics support it). He can still get his hands on the ball because of his length. So can Thad.

So double-standard here.

There's SOOO much love for Rondo and Rubio too...two guys who have suspect jumpshots at an even far more important "outside" shooting positions. And in Rondo, not only is he an inconsistent shooter...worse is he's a reluctant shooter. And don't even get me started on that FT%.

Rondo sot 37% from three last year on like 170 attemps. And led the NBA in assists. he does thing you want your PG to do. Thad doesnt do the things you want a PF to do. [/quote]

Thad averaged 9 rpg. The only thing he doesn't really do well is interior defense and shoot threes as a quintessential stretch 4...but most stretch 4 will only have one or the other, rarely both. As for Rondo, that's really the only time he's shot the 3 that well in his entire career (for that amount of shots). Maybe he's improved, but I'm always leery of someone hitting threes at that rate for the first time when they are historically bad shooters, especially from the line.

Rubio you have a legit point... but id bring rubio in because i think he would sell out the building and become a complete rockstar in NY. barclays was the loudest i ever seen it, rooting and oohing and ahhing at an opponents player when the wolves came to town and he put on a show. for me rubio is more about building the fanbase and brining a buzz to the team. on court your right though.

to me thad is good guy but he brings very little to the table. he doesnt shoot, isnt a smallball guy, doesnt defend and everything he does mirrors what brook does. he doesnt cover any of brooks weak spots. he scores but inefficiently, its not like he is a prime zack randolf killing it in the post on high efficiency.

give me someone like jared dudley who spaces the floor and gaurd multiple positions for 5-75% of what thad makes and invest 30-40 million into the wings who have a bigger impact on the game in todays nba

I think trading for someone because of their off-court appeal is a bad way to build culture on a new team. That's what got us (somewhat) in that mess, trying to make the "splash" move rather than what's really best for the team.

As for what Thad brings to the table, I don't completely agree. He isn't a dominant rebounder, but 9 rpg is good enough. I mean, everyone (just about) loves Al Horford for this team and he's been on a steady decline rebounding wise over the past years. As I mentioned earlier, Thad has length and uses his athleticism on help defense. He doesn't play very sound fundamental defense, but he gets tips and breaks on passes which helps us get on a fast break. He's also good at cutting to the basket. For a team that's going to want to emphasize ball movement, we need guys who are active in cutting to the hole (when things are opened up). Now, with the whole playoffs, granted we won't be playing GSW every night, but the trend to stop outside shooting (since teams will try and emulate that) is to switch 1-4 (sometimes 5). Thad can do that.

I don't think Thad is an all-world player, and I think they got bad value in Levert for the spot that they got for Thad. But those beside the point, if we're getting rid of Thad for cap space, then I'm a bit leery of the strategy given that Thad's cap # is pretty friendly, and with everyone having cap space this year, I can only imagine what some of these role players are going to get...some if not most, will not be better than Thad.

Until we see what this FO does with FA, this move to trade Thad for the #20 (and the subsequent move to select Levert) is a big ? in my mind.

[jbeachboy]

levert is good value if he stays healthy, he has star potential.

[Prokorov]

Fair enough, but why the love fest then for Rondo? To me, he's on the same line as Thad, maybe better. But he's just like Thad in that he's a gambler. I don't think Rondo is elite man-to-man (perhaps if he chooses to, but we really haven't seen that, and the advanced metrics support it). He can still get his hands on the ball because of his length. So can Thad.

So double-standard here.

rondo dos the things you want a PG to do... he led the NBA in assists and was 5th in hockey assists. is excellent in the PnR and shot 37% from three. he is a good fit with our best player

to me thad doesnt do any of the things i want my PF to do other then bring energy and is a poor fit with our best player. i think you can find a floor spacer with energy (i.e. dudley) for about half the cost while investing the other 6 million at wing

thad averaged 9 rpg. The only thing he doesn't really do well is interior defense and shoot threes as a quintessential stretch 4...

Those are literally the 2 things you want from your PF(especially next to brook). shooting and defense

I think trading for someone because of their off-court appeal is a bad way to build culture on a new team. That's what got us (somewhat) in that mess, trying to make the "splash" move rather than what's really best for the team.

i agree 99 times out of 100. to me rubio is the 1. i dont see a better fit for that purpose and the fans alreayd love him more then any player on our team

As for what Thad brings to the table, I don't completely agree. He isn't a dominant rebounder, but 9 rpg is good enough. I mean, everyone (just about) loves Al Horford for this team and he's been on a steady decline rebounding wise over the past years. As I mentioned earlier, Thad has length and uses his athleticism on help defense. He doesn't play very sound fundamental defense, but he gets tips and breaks on passes which helps us get on a fast break. He's also good at cutting to the basket. For a team that's going to want to emphasize ball movement, we need guys who are active in cutting to the hole (when things are opened up). Now, with the whole playoffs, granted we won't be playing GSW every night, but the trend to stop outside shooting (since teams will try and emulate that) is to switch 1-4 (sometimes 5). Thad can do that.

Horford is better then thad at every aspect of the game... and by a really large margin defensively. the rebounding to me is meh... PF next to brook is always going to be a rebound vulture since brook boxes out and isnt aggressive on the glass. the guy next to brook historically has always been a 10 rpg guy.

I don't think Thad is an all-world player, and I think they got bad value in Levert for the spot that they got for Thad. But those beside the point, if we're getting rid of Thad for cap space, then I'm a bit leery of the strategy given that Thad's cap # is pretty friendly, and with everyone having cap space this year, I can only imagine what some of these role players are going to get...some if not most, will not be better than Thad.

Until we see what this FO does with FA, this move to trade Thad for the #20 (and the subsequent move to select Levert) is a big ? in my mind.

Thad to me is the exact opposite of you want today for a PF. and in a vaccuum his contract is friendly but in an outlier offseason with tons of cap room your better off having 2 or 3 big contracts with smaller contracts round it then having a bunch of 10-12 million deals. plus i think you want to invest at the wing spots, not PF.

[Trader_Joe]

So Prok, do you finally admit your fears of signing Thad were unfounded?
The signing did not compromise our ability to land two max FAs since he was easily movable (not that we are getting two). Not only did we clear his cap space, we added a 1st and 2nd rounder thanks to signing him.