The Official Lin Net Thread II

[MrDollarBills]

Whether we like to admit it or not...Lin has been a massive bust for us this year. I liked watching him play, and we actually looked like an NBA team when he was on the court, but if you're barely playing, all of the good stuff that you bring doesn't matter.

The guy was made of glass this season. Almost feels like ACL tears heal faster than this guy's hamstring.

"Bust" always refers to talent level to me so I wouldn't say he was a bust simply because he wasn't available to showcase his talent.

I'm not going to fault him for being injured because injuries happen. I don't fault Brook for his multiple foot surgeries either.

If I'm going to blame anyone (which I don't), I'd say that Marks could've at least went after better/less risky backups. Unless Vazquez was 100% healthy, don't take that risk just because you like his character.

At best, Vazquez should've been a 3rd string PG with someone better in front of him. Once Lin went down and Vazquez was out, we had rookies ex-Dleaguer wings running the point, which (as Kenny has said) is the "engine of the team". When you're two men down at the most important position for this offense, you're going to suffer big time.

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This is a fair criticism. I think Marks screwed up with the vasquez pick up.

[hood30]

Whether we like to admit it or not...Lin has been a massive bust for us this year. I liked watching him play, and we actually looked like an NBA team when he was on the court, but if you're barely playing, all of the good stuff that you bring doesn't matter.

The guy was made of glass this season. Almost feels like ACL tears heal faster than this guy's hamstring.

To be fair here, the reason why Lin's hamstrings healing feels slower than an ACL is probably because Brooklyn has a more conservative rehabilitation process than all NBA teams....I remember Lin being quoted stating that if it was up to him, he'd be already playing since he could already run, jump and cut on a dime with no pains.

But I'll say that I agree that injury is also part of the game and you could state that Lin has been a disappointment, but not because of his plays...Let's hope he stays healthy next year.

[MrDollarBills]

An ACL tear is a 9 month max recovery process. This is nothing.

Brooklyn's conservative approach can be blamed for some the time lost, but just because Lin says he'd be already playing doesn't mean that his body can handle it...as evidenced by him re injuring the same hamstring within a week.

I'd prefer to have him 100% for next season instead of having to miss summer workout time and prep because he played on a less than 100% leg and the hamstring ends up tearing right off of the bone like a plate full of properly cooked tender rib meat in a meaningless February game.

[CalamityX12]

Just hope Lin is focusing on how to improve himself in the game of basketball as he recovers....

sometimes it feels to me he's been more of a public image than a player(but injury does have a say in that)

[Prokorov]

I never said Lin was better than Harden - never. Show me the post. I did say his defense was better than Harden's which is hard to dispute. Lee is a fine, average NBA player but he's not a difference maker like Lin. If you watched the playoffs last year and saw Lin make the difference when Batum went down and lead the team to wins in games 3-5 you should know that.
So we disagree on Lee that's ok. If Lin ever gets healthy I'll bet Nets fans will see what I'm talking about.

Hard to say Lee wasnt a difference maker when the team was 20-8 after his arrival and he was top 10 among SGs in RPM/DRPM/RAPM/DRAPM/BPM. there is some evidence he had a huge impact in those 28 games and little evidence that he did not.

you could make an argument adding him had the biggest impact although i dont care to go down that rode.... my whole point was it seemed biased to brush aside lee like he was nothing and give lin all the credit

Hooray Prok defender of Lee! Meanwhile you constantly tear down your team's best player who has high character and who has been loyal to the team for 9 years. Hooray unbiased Prok the hypocrite.

when brook lopez either goes to a team and improves them that drastically, or leaves a team and sees them get considerbly worse then ill make the argument for his impact.

but as of now, lopez went down and we had the most success the team has seen in the brookyln era, with KG playing center making us no longer terrible on defense and us advanced to the second round and being competitive vs miami.

My criticisms of lopez have always been fair. and ive often complimented his game and even defended him on the GB. it is just ot the point where lopez has run his course and is overvalued and overexcused....

either way, that all completely misses the point. Lopez being whatever he is has no effect on the impact courtney lee had last year with the hornets. it doesnt change the facts. nor does your name calling

[Rainyy]

but as of now, lopez went down and we had the most success the team has seen in the brookyln era, with KG playing center making us no longer terrible on defense and us advanced to the second round and being competitive vs miami.

Besides you greatly over-exaggerating these defensive improvements after Lopez went down, the lazy cause-effect reasoning should never be the basis of valuing a player.

There are just so many confounding variables in play. "The team started improving that one time Lopez went down, therefore Lopez isn't very good" is just a very weak argument. You're ignoring multiple years of sample size and statistics, and controlling for virtually nothing.

Do people not remember the beginning of the 13-14 season? Deron, KG, Pierce, Joe, and Lopez all missed games due to injuries. I forget this until I recently looked it up, but Lopez missed ~7 games with an ankle injury. That early season sample - a measly 17 games with Lopez - was filled with players getting hurt or coming back from injury, a largely new squad getting adjusted to each other, a rookie coach, coaching for the first time professionally (Kidd has never been an assistant even) getting his bearings. Your argument implicitly assumes that that team would continue playing at that level, instead of improving as the season went on.

That you would allow a a horribly lazy "before-after" comparison, predicated on a 17 game sample size filled with a mountain of confounding variables, form the basis for your valuation of a player is absolutely criminal.

[Prokorov]

but as of now, lopez went down and we had the most success the team has seen in the brookyln era, with KG playing center making us no longer terrible on defense and us advanced to the second round and being competitive vs miami.

Besides you greatly over-exaggerating these defensive improvements after Lopez went down, the lazy cause-effect reasoning should never be the basis of valuing a player.

There are just so many confounding variables in play. "The team started improving that one time Lopez went down, therefore Lopez isn't very good" is just a very weak argument. You're ignoring multiple years of sample size and statistics, and controlling for virtually nothing.

Do people not remember the beginning of the 13-14 season? Deron, KG, Pierce, Joe, and Lopez all missed games due to injuries. I forget this until I recently looked it up, but Lopez missed ~7 games with an ankle injury. That early season sample - a measly 17 games with Lopez - was filled with players getting hurt or coming back from injury, a largely new squad getting adjusted to each other, a rookie coach, coaching for the first time professionally (Kidd has never been an assistant even) getting his bearings. Your argument implicitly assumes that that team would continue playing at that level, instead of improving as the season went on.

That you would allow a a horribly lazy "before-after" comparison, predicated on a 17 game sample size filled with a mountain of confounding variables, form the basis for your valuation of a player is absolutely criminal.

So we didnt have our most success as a team without lopez in 13-14?

[Rainyy]

So we didnt have our most success as a team without lopez in 13-14?

Well, we still finished with a worse record in 13-14 than we did in 12-13. We did have a higher winning percentage after Lopez went down than during the previous year, although I am sure you can cherry-pick other win streaks over the years.

Sure, we made it to the second round. Big whoop. The Bulls were a far worse matchup for us than the Raptors were. Thibs understood defense and he basically exploited our greatest weakness - floor-spacing. Hard to win when you're giving huge minutes to Wallace/Evans. During the 14-15 season, we stole two wins from the Hawks, despite having a terrible team outside of Lopez/Dwill/Thad. I was probably most impressed with that to be honest.

I think you are missing the point though - you are committing the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Even if we establish we played the best basketball we ever did after Lopez went down is that because of Lopez going down?

There are many competing explanations of why we improved, which you have done a poor job of eliminating. The 17 games with Lopez is a small, small sample size, first of all. Players could have simply improved as the season went along and they got more comfortable with each other. Indeed, this team had no chemistry in the early going. We also had a new coach who changed his system as the season went along. You also fail to mention confounding variables like early season injuries. Our defensive rating was stellar the first 7 games Lopez played that year. It took a nose dive during the period he missed and when he returned from an ankle injury. Lopez played multiple games were Pierce was injured with a hand injury, Deron with an ankle injury, and KG for rest/injury. All this occurred when he himself was playing banged up. In a small sample size, injuries like that will definitely have a distorting effect.

You also fail to mention that going "small,' and inserting Livingston, arguably our best defender, into the starting lineup and sliding Joe/Pierce to the 4 helped the team immensely. This was a massive change to the offensive and defense system. Yet, this could have happened while Lopez was still on the team, and may well have in a hypothetical universe where he never got injured. IMO, KG should have come off the bench, with Livingston in the starting lineup and PP at the 4.

You also fail to speak of these confounding variables when making year-to-year comparisons. That 13-14 season had so much more depth than the 12-13 team. Outside of Lopez, Dwill, Blatche, and Joe that 12-13 was dreadful. Wallace/Evans were replacement level players getting massive minutes. No one on our bench could shoot or defend. We had zero floor-spacing.

In that 13-14 season we added Livingston, Plumlee, KG, Pierce, Alan Anderson, Teletovic (who barely played the prior year), Terry, and AK. That is a drastically different team with far more talent and depth. Reggie Evans, our previous starter, couldn't even crack the rotation! You fail to mention any of this.

Anyway, since after Lopez went down we had more success that means it is because of Lopez, is hardly a compelling argument, especially without doing any of the legwork necessary to make a fair comparison. And with that early season sample being so microscopic, I think it's very hard to make a compelling argument even with controlling for variables since that kind of sample is so prone to variance.

[tonman]

You've been saying that since the summer. We have seen. Or do I need to post your foolish playoff predictions.

Very unfair considering Lin's injuries. This is the last time I will reply to you as you are obviously untruthful and have another worse agenda as well.

Unfair? It was a SEASON prediction and you were wrong. Get off your soapbox because your proclamations are unrealistic. Lin isn't the difference between this team being where they are now and you sound dumb saying so.

Now you want to say he's going to blow up from here on out when it's more likely that he is on a minutes restriction in what is turning out to be a lost season and he likely isn't even close to basketball shape.

Stop already because when it doesn't happen I will throw it in your face like your rants from the summer and your silly argumentso comparing Lin to some of the top players in the NBA. Lin had a couple of good games in the playoffs last year, good for him. He did play in The other games and didn't do much in them. He's never played in the second round. He has never been viewed as anything more then a league average guy outside of his fan base which has nothing to do with his ethnicity right? Come on man, give it a rest already. I like Lin but dealing with people like you make him hard to root for.

what's your definition of average? lin is averaging about 13.9 ppg this season (in only 12 games). that would put him #70 out of 270+ players in the NBA. lin is averaging 5.8 apg. that would put him @ #21 out of 270+ players in the NBA.

to me until he is able to start and show something as a starter, he is at best an "average" STARTING NBA point guard, more likely in the 21-28 range. but he is not an "average" player. he is arguably the 2nd best player on this team (I know ouch).

[Rainyy]

Lin is by far our 2nd best player and it isn't even close.

Our biggest issue this year - by far - has been our lack of point guard. For most of the year, Lin's replacements, Dinwiddie, Foye, IW, and Kilpatrick, have played at or below replacement level.

Lin isn't great, but the difference between him and D-league filler at what is the most important offensive position is tremendous. None of our point-guards have been able to run the offense or defend the PnR. It's obviously not a coincidence we're near the bottom of the league in turnover rate.

[tonman]

Lin is by far our 2nd best player and it isn't even close.

Our biggest issue this year - by far - has been our lack of point guard. For most of the year, Lin's replacements, Dinwiddie, Foye, IW, and Kilpatrick, have played at or below replacement level.

Lin isn't great, but the difference between him and D-league filler at what is the most important offensive position is tremendous. None of our point-guards have been able to run the offense or defend the PnR. It's obviously not a coincidence we're near the bottom of the league in turnover rate.

understand that lin hasn't been able to play therefore it's hard to say he's the 2nd best player on this team. talent wise sure. please understand the distinction with play and talent. not playing is a negative.

the other thing is that consistency is often the difference between a good player and a below average player. you can see the replacements can play well one game and disappear the next. that was the main thing I was looking at lin for this season. I've said in the past, lin is inconsistently consistent such that his stats are very consistent year to year but stretches of games to games he is not. the difference with lin is that he's shown on many occasions that he can perform on a high level for stretches where as his replacements are doing it only on a game by game basis. lin has already started 82 games for Houston, I wanted to see him better that and be more consistent.

[Prokorov]

So we didnt have our most success as a team without lopez in 13-14?

Well, we still finished with a worse record in 13-14 than we did in 12-13. We did have a higher winning percentage after Lopez went down than during the previous year, although I am sure you can cherry-pick other win streaks over the years.

Sure, we made it to the second round. Big whoop. The Bulls were a far worse matchup for us than the Raptors were. Thibs understood defense and he basically exploited our greatest weakness - floor-spacing. Hard to win when you're giving huge minutes to Wallace/Evans. During the 14-15 season, we stole two wins from the Hawks, despite having a terrible team outside of Lopez/Dwill/Thad. I was probably most impressed with that to be honest.

I think you are missing the point though - you are committing the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Even if we establish we played the best basketball we ever did after Lopez went down is that because of Lopez going down?

There are many competing explanations of why we improved, which you have done a poor job of eliminating. The 17 games with Lopez is a small, small sample size, first of all. Players could have simply improved as the season went along and they got more comfortable with each other. Indeed, this team had no chemistry in the early going. We also had a new coach who changed his system as the season went along. You also fail to mention confounding variables like early season injuries. Our defensive rating was stellar the first 7 games Lopez played that year. It took a nose dive during the period he missed and when he returned from an ankle injury. Lopez played multiple games were Pierce was injured with a hand injury, Deron with an ankle injury, and KG for rest/injury. All this occurred when he himself was playing banged up. In a small sample size, injuries like that will definitely have a distorting effect.

You also fail to mention that going "small,' and inserting Livingston, arguably our best defender, into the starting lineup and sliding Joe/Pierce to the 4 helped the team immensely. This was a massive change to the offensive and defense system. Yet, this could have happened while Lopez was still on the team, and may well have in a hypothetical universe where he never got injured. IMO, KG should have come off the bench, with Livingston in the starting lineup and PP at the 4.

You also fail to speak of these confounding variables when making year-to-year comparisons. That 13-14 season had so much more depth than the 12-13 team. Outside of Lopez, Dwill, Blatche, and Joe that 12-13 was dreadful. Wallace/Evans were replacement level players getting massive minutes. No one on our bench could shoot or defend. We had zero floor-spacing.

In that 13-14 season we added Livingston, Plumlee, KG, Pierce, Alan Anderson, Teletovic (who barely played the prior year), Terry, and AK. That is a drastically different team with far more talent and depth. Reggie Evans, our previous starter, couldn't even crack the rotation! You fail to mention any of this.

Anyway, since after Lopez went down we had more success that means it is because of Lopez, is hardly a compelling argument, especially without doing any of the legwork necessary to make a fair comparison. And with that early season sample being so microscopic, I think it's very hard to make a compelling argument even with controlling for variables since that kind of sample is so prone to variance.

ill pick this up with you in the trade thread discussion going. no need to derail the lin thread.

[GoodDayLa]

As for the Lee/Lin discussion, anyone who've watched last year Hornets would tell you Lin had much greater impact on that team than Lee and Lin was largely responsible for winning games 3-4, and played a crucial role in game 5 with 8 assist off the bench...

Lee did his job well enough which was as a 3-d role-player guy..As for why Hornets greatly improved after Lee was brought in?..I think that had more to do with Lee replacing Hairston in the rotation and the fact that Hairston was not an NBA player...Just removing Hairston minutes with a good role player like Lee automatically improved Charlotte.

If Charlotte had simply started Lin at SG and simply traded for a back-up PG instead of Lee, I believe they'd be better, but that's just my own opinion...

Watching the games, Lee defense was no better than Lin and Lin guarded SG very well during his time with Charlotte...Clifford simply had a huge affection with heights and this is why a guy like Hairston started and this is also why Lee started ahead of Lin, eventhough their defense were basically the same on shooting guards.

My personal belief is that Coach Clifford was told not to start Lin under any circumstance unless Kemba was injured to preserve the pecking order in that organization and make sure there was no debate as to who was a better guard between Lin and Kemba. Everyone there understood Lin was a 1 year rental. No need to create conflict there for a bench warmer gun for hire.

What I don't understand though is why they didn't try to keep Lin at the 2 and sell the franchise on marketing both guys together like the splash brothers. Charlotte's a lost franchise and there was enough room at showcase both guards and move Batum to the 3. MKG can be your 6th man or vice versa.

Back to the topic I'm responding to - Jeremy Lin by far had the greatest impact of any single player on that team last season and it particularly showed itself to be true in games 3,4, and 5. In games 6 and 7, Lin was shut down by his own organization since he was a gun for hire and starting to get too much shine at Kemba's expense. The game film tells the story. To Kemba's credit, he almost dropped 50 in game 6 but it was always going to be a loss when a sub 6 foot guard looks to score first and pass second every play and tries to win the game by himself with "me first basketball" like Carmelo tries to do every season hopelessly. (there is a reason the Hornets are the second worst team in the NBA the last 15 games just ahead of the Nets. Kemba is not nearly as good as Jlin and the Hornets are not talented enough to pretend or play through Jlin's impact & they are also screwed being a small market team who gets no ref whistles or benefits of the NBA's kindness like the Knicks sometimes do).

The debate about who was more useful between Clee and Jlin in Charlotte is laughable. It was not even close. I will say one thing though - both CLee and Jlin play horrible next to selfish Melo when Melo is catered to by the franchise.

[Pistolpete1947]

As for the Lee/Lin discussion, anyone who've watched last year Hornets would tell you Lin had much greater impact on that team than Lee and Lin was largely responsible for winning games 3-4, and played a crucial role in game 5 with 8 assist off the bench...

Lee did his job well enough which was as a 3-d role-player guy..As for why Hornets greatly improved after Lee was brought in?..I think that had more to do with Lee replacing Hairston in the rotation and the fact that Hairston was not an NBA player...Just removing Hairston minutes with a good role player like Lee automatically improved Charlotte.

So true!

What I don't understand though is why they didn't try to keep Lin at the 2 and sell the franchise on marketing both guys together like the splash brothers. Charlotte's a lost franchise and there was enough room at showcase both guards and move Batum to the 3. MKG can be your 6th man or vice versa.

My thought's exactly

Back to the topic I'm responding to - Jeremy Lin by far had the greatest impact of any single player on that team last season and it particularly showed itself to be true in games 3,4, and 5. In games 6 and 7, Lin was shut down by his own organization since he was a gun for hire and starting to get too much shine at Kemba's expense.

The debate about who was more useful between Clee and Jlin in Charlotte is laughable.

Not to a lot of so-called "experts".

[Prokorov]

As for the Lee/Lin discussion, anyone who've watched last year Hornets would tell you Lin had much greater impact on that team than Lee and Lin was largely responsible for winning games 3-4, and played a crucial role in game 5 with 8 assist off the bench...

Lee did his job well enough which was as a 3-d role-player guy..As for why Hornets greatly improved after Lee was brought in?..I think that had more to do with Lee replacing Hairston in the rotation and the fact that Hairston was not an NBA player...Just removing Hairston minutes with a good role player like Lee automatically improved Charlotte.

So true!

What I don't understand though is why they didn't try to keep Lin at the 2 and sell the franchise on marketing both guys together like the splash brothers. Charlotte's a lost franchise and there was enough room at showcase both guards and move Batum to the 3. MKG can be your 6th man or vice versa.

My thought's exactly

Back to the topic I'm responding to - Jeremy Lin by far had the greatest impact of any single player on that team last season and it particularly showed itself to be true in games 3,4, and 5. In games 6 and 7, Lin was shut down by his own organization since he was a gun for hire and starting to get too much shine at Kemba's expense.

The debate about who was more useful between Clee and Jlin in Charlotte is laughable.

Not to a lot of so-called "experts".

aying "lin was more impactful" first off was never even a discussion.... my initial point was that you give tons of credit to lin and toss Lee aside like he had no impact (despite mountains of evidence he had a huge impact) and didnt even mention Al Jefferson.

No one said Lin wasnt a big part of it or that his loss doesnt sting charlotte (see what i did there).

But its hard for me to say Lee didnt have, at the very least, a very big impact on that turnaround when:

-He shot 40% from three for the hornets, who have dropped from 11th in threes last year (6th in the 28 games with lee) to 18th this year.
-They were 25-24 before he got there and 20-8 with him
-He was second to kemba on the team in BPM during that 28 game span
-his RPM/RAPM stats where excellent
-offensive rating increased in the 28 games he was there
-defensive rating improves in the 28 games he was there

everything you use to measure impact he excelled at and the team impoved DRASTICALLY once he arrived and the team has decline since his departure. there are other factors. and this is no knock on lin.

Try to be unbiased here.... if Lin went to a .500 team and they ripped off a 20-8 stretch where his impact stats were all great are you telling me you guys wouldnt be parading that as Lin having a great impact?

Lee is being unfairly treated here. he was a big part of that run

[Pistolpete1947]

What I don't understand though is why they didn't try to keep Lin at the 2 and sell the franchise on marketing both guys together like the splash brothers. Charlotte's a lost franchise and there was enough room at showcase both guards and move Batum to the 3. MKG can be your 6th man or vice versa.


Back to the topic I'm responding to - Jeremy Lin by far had the greatest impact of any single player on that team last season and it particularly showed itself to be true in games 3,4, and 5. In games 6 and 7, Lin was shut down by his own organization since he was a gun for hire and starting to get too much shine at Kemba's expense.

The debate about who was more useful between Clee and Jlin in Charlotte is laughable.

Not to a lot of so-called "experts".

aying "lin was more impactful" first off was never even a discussion.... my initial point was that you give tons of credit to lin and toss Lee aside like he had no impact (despite mountains of evidence he had a huge impact) and didnt even mention Al Jefferson.

No one said Lin wasnt a big part of it or that his loss doesnt sting charlotte (see what i did there).

But its hard for me to say Lee didnt have, at the very least, a very big impact on that turnaround when:

-He shot 40% from three for the hornets, who have dropped from 11th in threes last year (6th in the 28 games with lee) to 18th this year.
-They were 25-24 before he got there and 20-8 with him
-He was second to kemba on the team in BPM during that 28 game span
-his RPM/RAPM stats where excellent
-offensive rating increased in the 28 games he was there
-defensive rating improves in the 28 games he was there

everything you use to measure impact he excelled at and the team impoved DRASTICALLY once he arrived and the team has decline since his departure. there are other factors. and this is no knock on lin.

Try to be unbiased here.... if Lin went to a .500 team and they ripped off a 20-8 stretch where his impact stats were all great are you telling me you guys wouldnt be parading that as Lin having a great impact?

Lee is being unfairly treated here. he was a big part of that run

Why do you even care what I say about Lee? Also stop calling me biased when you obviously are extremely biased against our own players which is worse than calling a player on another team mediocre.

Lee was part of the Hornets improvement because he replaced P.J. Hairston, who was terrible, as a starter. There were a lot of other factors as well but you had to have been watching to know the whole story. Other people on this thread were watching and have stated that Lin was far more impactfull than Lee in the Hornet's success. Even their fanbase says so and wishes Lin had stayed. Anyhow I'm done with this discussion. People who were there know the truth and Lin will soon show you how important to a team he really is. After all "actions speak louder than words".

[Prokorov]

Why do you even care what I say about Lee? Also stop calling me biased when you obviously are extremely biased against our own players which is worse than calling a player on another team mediocre.

Its a Nets/baksetball forum. thats what we are here to do... discuss this stuff. If i agree or disagree with something ill comment on it. If you dont care for what i'm syaing dont respond or ignore it.

Lee was part of the Hornets improvement because he replaced P.J. Hairston, who was terrible, as a starter. There were a lot of other factors as well but you had to have been watching to know the whole story.

I never claimed Lee was the only reason, and the whole point of my initial response was that there were a lot of factors, something you seemed to dismiss in your original post regarding the topic. Not once did i say anything to the notion of "Lee was the real reasonf or the turnaround" or "lin wasnt a big factor". i explicitly stated that Lee was a factored, provided evidence as to why, and then also stated Lin may still have been a big factor, and that others like Al jefferson factored in too.

you completely dismissed lee, and didnt even mention jefferson

Other people on this thread were watching and have stated that Lin was far more impactfull than Lee in the Hornet's success. Even their fanbase says so and wishes Lin had stayed. Anyhow I'm done with this discussion. People who were there know the truth and Lin will soon show you how important to a team he really is. After all "actions speak louder than words".

I never said Lin wants an important part of their success.

[Paradise]

I still think Lin would greatly benefit from a dual ball handler and playmaker alongside him. He needs a legitimate backcourt partner.

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[MrDollarBills]

I still think Lin would greatly benefit from a dual ball handler and playmaker alongside him. He needs a legitimate backcourt partner.

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LeVert definitely, but we'll need another wing this offseason.

[Ror1997]

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Nice to see that Lin takes better care of his hair than he does his legs