GT: Milwaukee Bucks @ Barclays Center - Wednesday, 2/15/17 7:30pm

[MrDollarBills]

waitaminute...some of those assertions...you used to post here when Hollins was coaching? I used to see you on NetsDaily, but not here. Are you sure you aren't lumping in the nets realgm forum with some of the stuff you dealt with there?

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone singing Joe Johnson's praises, outside of his excellent 2013-14 season for us. Outside of that Joe was sleep walking through the entire season and clearly didn't care if we won or lost.

[Rainyy]

Watch on YouTube

He wouldn't be such a polarizing player if he did stuff like that more often. 4 rebounds again is still terrible. He should've had atleast 8-9.

1. Depends on what you mean by "more often," but if he played at 80% of this level on a regular basis, he would be a Top 5 player in the league.

Lopez is a really good player, but like most non-superstars he has flaws in his game. He's going to have to be a distant #2 or (more likely) a #3 on a championship-caliber team. I think the difference between him and the other guys in his tier is that you have watched him for the last 9 seasons and have come to associate him with losing basketball.

In this regard, I think the Nirvana fallacy is often used with Lopez. People are so accustomed to hyper-scrutinizing his game that we lose perspective on how other bigs actually play, and hold Lopez to an impossible standard.

People sometimes act as though Lopez is the only player who sags off of screens or stays back from the PnR. Yet, virtually every big in the league does these things all the time. Watching Marc Gasol the other day, I was thinking to myself "if this guy looked like Lopez, you guys would be blasting him."

2. If Lopez had 4-5 more rebounds what would be different in the game? Would the score even be affected? I'll remind you that the Bucks only had 7 offensive rebounds and we won the rebounding battle.

Tell us why Lopez should have had those extra rebounds. My criticism of you is that you value individual rebounding for the sake of individual rebounding. It's not a question about value provided, but instead adherence with the normative idea that centers should be grabbing rebounds.

So please tell me what Lopez grabbing 4-5 more rebounds would have done in this game. I can envision many a scenario where Lopez grabs 10+ rebounds last night and the score is identical, simply if we assign some of our many uncontested rebounds to him instead of one of our teammates.

[Rainyy]

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone singing Joe Johnson's praises, outside of his excellent 2013-14 season for us. Outside of that Joe was sleep walking through the entire season and clearly didn't care if we won or lost.

I did read these boards during those periods and I simply disagree. Obviously there are exceptions, and some folks were hard on Joe.

[Prokorov]

waitaminute...some of those assertions...you used to post here when Hollins was coaching? I used to see you on NetsDaily, but not here. Are you sure you aren't lumping in the nets realgm forum with some of the stuff you dealt with there?

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone singing Joe Johnson's praises, outside of his excellent 2013-14 season for us. Outside of that Joe was sleep walking through the entire season and clearly didn't care if we won or lost.

Yup... im the biggest johnson defender but last year he completely mailed it in.

[Prokorov]

1. Depends on what you mean by "more often," but if he played at 80% of this level on a regular basis, he would be a Top 5 player in the league.

and if he played 75% of it on a regular basis he would be a top 20 player. and the problem is less offense and more consistent effort and most importantly... not matter how well he plays offensively and how many blocks he gets he is still a major team defensive liability. and thats why his value is so low trade wise. teams want mobile bigs who can defend.

2. If Lopez had 4-5 more rebounds what would be different in the game? Would the score even be affected? I'll remind you that the Bucks only had 7 offensive rebounds and we won the rebounding battle.

of course it would matter. we are dead last in second chance points allowed.


Look lopez is a good guy, works hard and he can score.... but its not like he is some 25-27 ppg player where his offense is impossible to replace. he gets you like 18-20 a game with the VERY infrequent ecplosion like last night. if lopez was aggressive and competitive enough to go get you 26+ a night then his D issues become a bit less relevant. but he doesnt. and worse his scoring is usually really unbalance. like 15 first half then 5 the rest of the way.

We need to move on from him and get a mobile big who can defend. invest the 20 million you give lopez into a wing who can replace the 20 ppg you get from brook.

Id rather get 12 points from a center with 10 rebounds and good defense and wing who scores 20 instead of having lopez give 20 with defensive and rebounding issues and a wing who gives you 12 points.

[Rainyy]

Yup... im the biggest johnson defender but last year he completely mailed it in.

You were the main person I was thinking of.

13-14 was the only season Joe was even average. He ranged from below-average to complete liability all his other years in Brooklyn. He set this franchise so far back. All he had to do was stand in a corner, be our Klay Thompson, and let Dwill dominate the ball. Just too much ego.

For someone who is apparently all about modern basketball, you sure liked the guy who was a selfish ball-stopper and struggled to pass.

[Prokorov]

Let me ask you this: who on this team is capable of making entry passes to the post? All of our guards legitimately struggle with this. Throughout every game there are plenty of moments where Lopez seals his man, and/or is in the low post, and/or is wide open off the PnR and he is simply ignored. His guards simply lack the skill, confidence, and court vision to execute those kinds of passes.

all 14 guys can.

problem is lopez doesnt go down in the post.... his post ups are usually 20 feet from the hoop.

[Prokorov]

Yup... im the biggest johnson defender but last year he completely mailed it in.

You were the main person I was thinking of.

13-14 was the only season Joe was even average. He ranged from below-average to complete liability all his other years in Brooklyn. He set this franchise so far back. All he had to do was stand in a corner, be our Klay Thompson, and let Dwill dominate the ball. Just too much ego.

For someone who is apparently all about modern basketball, you sure liked the guy who was a selfish ball-stopper and struggled to pass.

joe had no ego. and it worked fine for the one HALF of a season dwill dominated (20/8 post allstar break in year one). joes touches become a necessity for this team because dwill declined insanely in a short span and lopez just doenst have an aggressive competitive nature. and when brook went down we needed joe to respond, and he did in 13-14.

last year he was trash. year 1 he underachieved. no one denied that. joe was always a role guy. those upset always pointed to his contract. if you expected joe to play like a max guy it was unrealistic. he was never going to be able to live up to it.... to me that was a billy king problem though not a joe problem. you dont trade for the most overpaid guy in the league.

that said our biggest problems have always been dwill's massive decline and lopez defensive liabilites. you can overcome joe johnson being nothing more then a spot up shooter. you cant overcome your center being a liability in team defense or your point gaurd getting benched for jarret jack.

i never had issues calling johnson an overpaid role player. my issues was people making excuses for dwill and lopez blaming it all on joe.

joe is the only one of the three to put this team on his back and lead them to playoff success. beyond that he was trash. but the other guys deserve massive blame as well.

[Trader_Joe]

1. Depends on what you mean by "more often," but if he played at 80% of this level on a regular basis, he would be a Top 5 player in the league.

and if he played 75% of it on a regular basis he would be a top 20 player. and the problem is less offense and more consistent effort and most importantly... not matter how well he plays offensively and how many blocks he gets he is still a major team defensive liability. and thats why his value is so low trade wise. teams want mobile bigs who can defend.

2. If Lopez had 4-5 more rebounds what would be different in the game? Would the score even be affected? I'll remind you that the Bucks only had 7 offensive rebounds and we won the rebounding battle.

of course it would matter. we are dead last in second chance points allowed.


Look lopez is a good guy, works hard and he can score.... but its not like he is some 25-27 ppg player where his offense is impossible to replace. he gets you like 18-20 a game with the VERY infrequent ecplosion like last night. if lopez was aggressive and competitive enough to go get you 26+ a night then his D issues become a bit less relevant. but he doesnt. and worse his scoring is usually really unbalance. like 15 first half then 5 the rest of the way.

We need to move on from him and get a mobile big who can defend. invest the 20 million you give lopez into a wing who can replace the 20 ppg you get from brook.

Id rather get 12 points from a center with 10 rebounds and good defense and wing who scores 20 instead of having lopez give 20 with defensive and rebounding issues and a wing who gives you 12 points.

Except Lopez is #11 in the NBA in points per 48 minutes (33.7) and is one of the best shot blockers and rim protectors in the NBA.
Show me another player that can get you 36 points 8 blocks and 6 threes... oh wait he's the first to do it.
How about just the blocks and 3's? Oh wait.

Even his PnR is much better. His biggest issue continues to be rebounding, which you compliment with the likes of Evans/Hump, like when we were a top 2 rebounding team even with Brook playing 30+mpg. If he did average 10rpg, we'd have a top 10 player and arguably best C in the game. Lower the expectations some.

[Prokorov]

Except Lopez is #11 in the NBA in points per 48 minutes (33.7)

That would be awesome if he played 48 minutes. i could understand maybe using PER36 but lopez struggles to maintain his abilities past 30 minutes. let alone 36/48. this isnt someone like westbrook or harden or cousins with the conditioning to play big minutes without it effecting his scoring.

one of the attributes of a good scorer is being able to do it over increase minutes and over a full season. thats one of lopez biggest criticisms. his consisteny quarter to quarter and game to game. he has always been one of the better fist quarter scorers but tails off. same game to game. he will have a game like last night then give you a couple weeks of 18/5 play/

and is one of the best shot blockers and rim protectors in the NBA.

Lopez is one of the worst rim protectors among starting bigs. block shots are great but they dont tell the rim protection story. nor does the insanely flawed FG% at the rim stat.

Lopez doesnt protect the rim... because he so immobile he cant in position to do it. he is out on an island in no mans land on every pick and roll just below the FT line. rim is unprotected and he is too immboile to rotate there. Yes when he is camped out at the rim if someone attemps a shot he does a great job contesting without fouling.

but this isnt 1988. its 2017. and if you cant protect the rim against the pick and roll then you are not of much use defensively. Lopez is among the worst among starting bigs defending the pick and roll. he doesnt rotate enough to help in most help situations either. when gaurds beat their man he cant even get close enough to factor in most times.... and thats why his FG% at the rim is so high, because of most of the allowed baskets, he cant even get there for the attempt to register

lopez would be great if you could play 2-3 zone with no illegal defense. but in the NBA you ask him to move and you have major issues as we have seen being last ind efense 2 years running

[Rainyy]

Look lopez is a good guy.... but its not like he is some 25-27 ppg player where his offense is impossible to replace.....invest the 20 million you give lopez into a wing who can replace the 20 ppg you get from brook.

1. There are very, very few wings in the NBA who score 20 PPG as efficiently as Lopez. When I checked a few weeks ago, there were only 13 players, regardless of position, who scored 19+ PPG and were more efficient than Lopez. So if we're talking about wings specifically, I imagine there are only a handful in the NBA who can get you 20 PPG as efficient as Brook.

Personally, I don't think we can proceed as if those guys grow on trees and are easy to sign. I also think part of Lopez' utility is that he spaces the floor nicely, draws double-teams off the ball, and doesn't need a lot of touches to score. With some scoring wings you might get Lopez's efficiency, but at a potentially higher opportunity cost (if they aren't good passers for instance, yet touch the ball a ton).

2. I think if Lopez was actually built around - which has never happened in his career - he could score 25+ PPG.

- Lopez has close to the lowest PnR usage among starting bigs, yet it is his strongest scoring area by PPP (by a significant margin)
- Lopez does not have a replacement-level point guard on the roster
- He averages 29.6 minutes per game. If he were playing last year's minutes, his adjusted PPG would be 23.7!!!!

People need to acknowledge that Lopez has been extremely unlucky with his coaches and teammates. I think it's really hard to conclude ~20-21 PPG is his ceiling when we've never bothered to feature him.

It's a small sample, but a the end of 2015 is the only time we featured Lopez in the PnR with a semi-healthy Deron and a floor-spacer in Thad Young. Lopez averaged 25 PPG over that ~month stretch.

he is still a major team defensive liability. and thats why his value is so low trade wise. teams want mobile bigs who can defend.

1. We're never going to agree on Lopez's defense, and we've both already made our arguments. So I will just let this one go and simply say that I think Lopez is an average overall defender. Not going to anchor your defense by any stretch, but I certainly don't think he is a Bargniani-esque liability like you do.

2. Lopez's trade value is low for a variety of reasons:

- His age, contract, and injury history are probably the biggest reason his market price is below his actual value. People don't want to invest a max contract in a guy who will soon be turning 30 with a history of foot problems.

- Our team is losing. I think from a psychological perspective, since Lopez plays on the worst team in the NBA, I think other GMs will definitely implicitly blame Lopez. For all the talk of Atkinson supposedly upping Lopez's trade value, I think he has done a terrible job in this regard. If we really want to maximize Lopez's price, we'd be trying to win as much as possible with the guy and giving him more minutes next to system players like Levert and RHJ.

- HIs rebounding totals. Unfortunately, a lot of really unintelligent people still pollute the NBA front office ranks. A good portion still conflate rebounding with defense. I think rebounding has been what has primarily led to the perception that Lopez isn't a good defender, which I certainly acknowledge exists.

- Mobility. I will agree here. Although I don't think most GMs are nuanced enough to dive into the Sports VU data and really understand how Lopez's lack of quickness impacts PnR defense and the defense at large. As I said above, I think it's more just that Lopez has had the perception of being a defensive liability over the years, largely because he doesn't rebound and his team has never been good at defense. That said, there were a few years, like 12-13, where Lopez was credited for his defense around the league.

of course it would matter. we are dead last in second chance points allowed.

I really hope you will see this part of my post this time because last time you brought up second chance points allowed, you never responded to my argument.

1. Anyway, gross second chance points allowed is a problematic metric because: (1) it isn't pace-adjusted and (2) it risks double-counting our defensive liabilities, and placing it under the umbrella of rebounding.

As I have said, Team Defensive Rebounding Rate is the much better and more precise metric. We have been a mid to low-tier team all year long. We were around 15th in the league a couple weeks ago and last I checked were at 23rd in the league. The standard deviation in DRR is really low, which further suggests that our defensive rebounding has not been a significant issue for us. Moreover, my hypothesis is that we are worse rebounding with Hamilton on the floor than Lopez, which suggests to me that our team DRR probably undersells the rebounding efforts of our starters/Lopez. We could be better at defensive rebounding, but not a significant team issue.

2. You're conflating individual rebounding with team rebounding. Even if I concede defensive rebounding is this huge liability (it isn't), that doesn't mean Lopez grabbing or not grabbing extra rebounds actually fixes or changes anything.

I'll ask you the same question: if Lopez had 4-5 extra defensive rebounds, would the outcome be any different?

[Trader_Joe]

Except Lopez is #11 in the NBA in points per 48 minutes (33.7)

That would be awesome if he played 48 minutes. i could understand maybe using PER36 but lopez struggles to maintain his abilities past 30 minutes. let alone 36/48. this isnt someone like westbrook or harden or cousins with the conditioning to play big minutes without it effecting his scoring.

one of the attributes of a good scorer is being able to do it over increase minutes and over a full season. thats one of lopez biggest criticisms. his consisteny quarter to quarter and game to game. he has always been one of the better fist quarter scorers but tails off. same game to game. he will have a game like last night then give you a couple weeks of 18/5 play/

\
No one plays 48 but I didn't see per 36 anywhere. Point is, he scores more per minute than all but 10 players in the league.

and is one of the best shot blockers and rim protectors in the NBA.

Lopez is one of the worst rim protectors among starting bigs. block shots are great but they dont tell the rim protection story. nor does the insanely flawed FG% at the rim stat.

Evidence?
He's #6 among C in percentage allowed and those over 30 minutes.
He also allows opponents in general to shoot 2% less than their normal FG%/

Lopez doesnt protect the rim... because he so immobile he cant in position to do it. he is out on an island in no mans land on every pick and roll just below the FT line. rim is unprotected and he is too immboile to rotate there. Yes when he is camped out at the rim if someone attemps a shot he does a great job contesting without fouling.

but this isnt 1988. its 2017. and if you cant protect the rim against the pick and roll then you are not of much use defensively. Lopez is among the worst among starting bigs defending the pick and roll. he doesnt rotate enough to help in most help situations either. when gaurds beat their man he cant even get close enough to factor in most times.... and thats why his FG% at the rim is so high, because of most of the allowed baskets, he cant even get there for the attempt to register

lopez would be great if you could play 2-3 zone with no illegal defense. but in the NBA you ask him to move and you have major issues as we have seen being last ind efense 2 years running

Do you have any stats or proof to back this up?
Seems your stance on Lopez is the same as it was 2 years ago or 4 years ago despite the changes in his game.

[Trader_Joe]

Also, don't know how you can call his offense replaceable when so few can do what he does from the 4 or 5 spot.
Our offense is better with him on the court and our D.
Our rebounding is pretty much the same with him on or off, in fact our defensive rebounding is better. Our offensive rebounding is worse probably from him camping out by the 3 point line.

Almost everything is better with him on
http://www.82games.com/1617/16BKN18.HTM

And with the lack of talent on the team and shuffling of the line-ups you can't say it's because he plays with the starters or better players. He simply is the best player on the team by a wide margin and carries us to his abilities. To expect much more is expecting an MVP candidate to walk in the door.

[Rainyy]

That would be awesome if he played 48 minutes. i could understand maybe using PER36 but lopez struggles to maintain his abilities past 30 minutes.

I think the takeaway isn't whether he used 36 or 48 - which functionally say the same thing since few players play more than 36 minutes anyway - but that on a per-minute basis, Lopez is just outside the Top 10 in scoring. Perfectly reasonable to suggest an efficiency/scoring decline as fatigue sets in, but I personally think Lopez handled the 33.7 minutes he played last year just fine.

As I say above, if Lopez maintained his scoring pace, but played those 33.7 minutes, he would be averaging 23.7 PPG.

Lopez is one of the worst rim protectors among starting bigs. nor does the insanely flawed FG% at the rim stat.

Lopez doesnt protect the rim... because he so immobile he cant in position to do it.

There actually is a rather useful statistic that directly addresses this phenomenon and disagrees with your conclusion. It's called contest%, which looks at number of looks someone contests at the rim as a percentage of the total number of field goals allowed at the rim while that player is on the court. This is exactly what you are talking about and what you are right in saying FG% at the rim does not account for. Before the great unveil, a little background...

The tracking statistics on NBA.Com are acquired through Synergy the most basic versions of the SportsVu tracking statistics. The SportsVu tracking data itself is vastly superior and more detailed (they can literally track and qualitatively categorize everything), but is provided to only the NBA Teams themselves and their scouting departments. Basically, the general public gets the **** data.

There is one exception. For all of 2014-15 and half of 2015-16, NylonCalculus, to my knowledge, was the only public source privy to this kind of data. This is a group of statistical junkies and they do really good work. Anyway, they basically acquired the rim protection statistics from SportsVu and made what has been the best rim protection data to date.

Anyway, I looked at all centers who had played over 1,000 minutes (~ > 25mpg) through the first 40-44 games (depending on team) of 2015-16 season in contested%:

1. Whiteside
2. Mason Plumlee
3. Gortat
4. P. Gausol
5. Drummond
6. Pachulia
7. KAT
8. Robin Lopez
9. Hibbert
10. Gorgui Deng
11. Brook Lopez

So, at least for over half of last season, Lopez was 11th in contesting% - e.g. he contested a higher percentage of field goals allowed at the rim than the majority of centers playing >25 minutes. If you were to include no minute or sample size restricts, Lopez would still be above-average in contest%.

During the 14-15 season, of which there is a full year of data, Lopez was a very distant 2ND to Rudy Gobert among all bigs (PF/C) that played more than 2,000 minutes (~25 MPG). 2nd. With no minutes/sample size adjustments, Lopez was 10th in the league in contested% among both PF/Centers.

The better metric than FG% at the rim is a much more complex metric - points saved at the rim, which looks at the number of points a big presents at the rim over the average. This adjusts for position and minutes.

In half of 15-16, Lopez saved .86 PPG at the rim. This put him in the Top 10 among centers who had played >1,000 minutes. For comparison's sake, the single worst rim protector according to this data was who other than Andrea Bargniani, who "saved" -2.96 PPG. On a per 36 basis, Lopez saved nearly 4 more points than Bargniani. This is why I get annoyed when you compare the two defensively.

When I look at the full year's data for 15-16 (which was filled in by using play-by-play data), Lopez was 18th in the entire NBA in points saved per game among all qualified players (>500 mpg), regardless of position, with 0.77 saved. This probably precludes him from being called an "elite" rim protector, as his FG% at the rim might indicate, but it certainly is strong evidence saying he isn't this massive liability like you make him out to be.

And just to show you that many of the players ahead of Lopez are considered great defenders, here are some names: Whiteside, Ezeli, Robert, Gasol, Millsap, Ibaka, Bogut, Henson, Duncan, Biyombo, Porzingis, Lopez, Towns, Grant, and Noel. These were the guys ahead of Lopez.

Looking at the 14-15 data, Lopez was tied for 13th in points saved per game. He was beat out by the same usual suspects - Gobert, Ibaka, Bogut, Hibbert, Favors, Whiteside, Noel, to name a few.


What I can unequivocally say is that there is absolutely zero data that suggests Lopez is "one of the worst rim protectors among bigs." Absolutely none. Doesn't make you wrong, but your argument is based purely on your own personal observations. That is fine, but one of the reasons we use data is to protect against the limitations of individual observation and our own personal biases/fallacies. The reality is that it is physically impossible for you to watch every other big in the NBA play basketball and protect the rim. So you saying Lopez is relatively worse than all of these guys is mostly an act of faith.

The data we have is certainly imperfect, but it is enough to tell a general story. Even if we quibble about certain methodologies and limitations, the conclusion you reach is so inapposite to what it does suggest, that I do not believe it is based in reality.

[MrDollarBills]

Yup... im the biggest johnson defender but last year he completely mailed it in.

You were the main person I was thinking of.

13-14 was the only season Joe was even average. He ranged from below-average to complete liability all his other years in Brooklyn. He set this franchise so far back. All he had to do was stand in a corner, be our Klay Thompson, and let Dwill dominate the ball. Just too much ego.

For someone who is apparently all about modern basketball, you sure liked the guy who was a selfish ball-stopper and struggled to pass.

Which Deron are we talking about? The same one who was running from the ball in a 2nd round playoff game where he posted zero points? That Deron? The one who Paul Pierce had to ask if his "pussy hurts"?

[Prokorov]

We can bend over backwards to fin individual defense stats that are extremely flawed to show lopez isnt a horrible defender. or we could simply open our eyes and look at the past 9 years, or tune in any game night and see how horrific he is.

im working with the guy who posted the videos in the offense thread to put together a video of every sinngle pick and roll lopez was involved in this year. still have a ton of video to grab off league pass and convert, but the video is ovewhelming.

it is completely unreasonable to call lopez anything but a defensive liability who prevents you from defending not only the rim.... but worse the 3 point line. lopez inability to defend the pnr forces wings to hope early and shallow to where we cant recover on shooters.

[MrDollarBills]

We can bend over backwards to fin individual defense stats that are extremely flawed to show lopez isnt a horrible defender. or we could simply open our eyes and look at the past 9 years, or tune in any game night and see how horrific he is.

im working with the guy who posted the videos in the offense thread to put together a video of every sinngle pick and roll lopez was involved in this year. still have a ton of video to grab off league pass and convert, but the video is ovewhelming.

it is completely unreasonable to call lopez anything but a defensive liability who prevents you from defending not only the rim.... but worse the 3 point line. lopez inability to defend the pnr forces wings to hope early and shallow to where we cant recover on shooters.

[Rainyy]

We can bend over backwards to fin individual defense stats that are extremely flawed to show lopez isnt a horrible defender. or we could simply open our eyes and look at the past 9 years, or tune in any game night and see how horrific he is.

Lol. Yes, using a highly-regarded rim protection statistic that incorporates the data NBA scouting departments use to talk about rim protection is "bending over backwards" to excuse Lopez. All statistics are lies and what I am doing is conspiracy theory.

This is getting absurd. Like I am not going to trust your personal observations above overwhelming data. You do not watch every single team play. To my knowledge, the only team you watch consistently (more than 30 times in a year), are the Brooklyn Nets.

Serious question: do you consider yourself the second-coming of Jesus?

Also, I too watch every Nets game. My eyes are open. I couldn't disagree any more with your observations. At least I can say that what I see when I watch basketball is generally corroborated by the statistics.

it is completely unreasonable to call lopez anything but a defensive liability who prevents you from defending not only the rim...

If it were truly such an "unreasonable position" then I think there would be much more evidence on your side. What you have for us right now is "my eyes are right."

[Rainyy]

im working with the guy who posted the videos in the offense thread to put together a video of every sinngle pick and roll lopez was involved in this year. still have a ton of video to grab off league pass and convert, but the video is ovewhelming.

I take it you will be compiling the same video for every other center in the NBA? Otherwise this seems like a colossal waste of time.

Can't make a meaningful comparison if we're just hyper-focusing on one player without establishing a qualitative baseline.

This is precisely why I accused you of the Nirvana Fallacy. You are so used to hyper-scrutinizing Lopez's play that I think you are gravely out of touch with how the PnR is defended by the vast majority of bigs in the league. Every game we have played this season, the opposing center has made many of the exact same mistakes you accuse Lopez of, but it goes unnoticed.

[Rainyy]

Which Deron are we talking about? The same one who was running from the ball in a 2nd round playoff game where he posted zero points? That Deron? The one who Paul Pierce had to ask if his "pussy hurts"?

The Deron who was a better basketball player than Paul Pierce was every year since 2007 . Pierce was a clown. Ball dominant players like him/Joe stopped our best player from running the offense because they were too lazy and selfish to be team-players and work off the ball.

Deron was the only starter willing to run off screens and try to create some off-ball movement.