Kessel: $8 mil/year for 8 years

[ATLTimekeeper]

I stated Kessel was a better offensive player in my post but the gap between them isn't huge either. The age gap is a good point however, for some reason I thought they were only 3 years apart. That does make a huge difference.

I guess our opinions on what Kessel means to the Leafs differ as I think Kessel is one-dimensional and having him as one of the leaders on the team is a huge reason for the teams recent lack of success. Also I never recommended losing Kessel for nothing, I recommended trading him instead of overpaying him. That aside, if the plan was to keep him I think Nonis did a terrible job with the negotiations. As my original post mentioned it's not the $8 million, it's the 8 year and the no trade clause that are the problems.

I don't even think it's a question of if this contract ends up looking really bad, just a question of when. Of course the same thing can be said about the Clarkson deal too.

If you trade him going into the UFA year, his value is compromised. That's just the way the market works. So, the Leafs could expect .80 cents on the dollar (likely not a talent-for-talent deal, either) in a trade or circumvent a Parise-type offer. This is just the way the NHL runs now. The cap allows even small market teams to throw haymaker deals.

It's highly debatable whether Kessel should be held accountable for the three years they didn't make the playoffs. You could easily point to goaltending, defense, coaching, penalty killing. And what's more, Kessel was a key member of last year's playoff team. So should the Leafs point to the past or look to the future, knowing that the UFA market is unfavourable and the trade market likely just as volatile? And, given the context that they're one of the younger teams in the league that are also winning, is it shrewd to disrupt what's working?

[whysoserious]

The problem is not Kessel. Ideally maybe he makes a million less per year and maybe you sign him for 6 years or so instead of 8 but those are not huge. The no-trade is huge or moreso limited trade clause he got. The Leafs need to stop this practice.

The problem is how this team is built throughout the roster, where the dollars are spent and then giving Kessel that contract. They're paying a third line C pretty big money (in the grand scheme of their contracts) to be their first line C and then have a bunch of other guys overpaid by position.

The problem was and still remains at the time they made the Kessel deal, they were trying to go for it every year and make the playoffs instead of getting a bunch of high-end, young talent to grow with him. Burke did an okay job finding youth through trades and made some good draft choices over the years, but overall he didn't get enough high-end talent. And so we're back to being in the same position we were in with Sundin. Don't take this as Sundin being comparable to Kessel, he is far superior and way underrated by Leafs fans. But you have a high end gifted front line player now and not a ton to play with him to compete with the Pens and Bruins and countless other true Cup Contenders.

[TheRealistGM]

I don't mind this deal at all. We've already seen what it takes in free agency to bring in a guy even like Clarkson. Although there are certain things I can't stand about Kessel but theres no doubting he is an elite offensive talent. The leafs are finally turning the corner and becoming a playoff team and you guys want to gut the team. Players of that caliber rarely make it to free agency so even if we don't sign Kessel that 8 million likely ends up getting spent on 2nd and 3rd line talent.

[Mohanad]

The problem is not Kessel. Ideally maybe he makes a million less per year and maybe you sign him for 6 years or so instead of 8 but those are not huge. The no-trade is huge or moreso limited trade clause he got. The Leafs need to stop this practice.

The problem is how this team is built throughout the roster, where the dollars are spent and then giving Kessel that contract. They're paying a third line C pretty big money (in the grand scheme of their contracts) to be their first line C and then have a bunch of other guys overpaid by position.

The problem was and still remains at the time they made the Kessel deal, they were trying to go for it every year and make the playoffs instead of getting a bunch of high-end, young talent to grow with him. Burke did an okay job finding youth through trades and made some good draft choices over the years, but overall he didn't get enough high-end talent.

I agree not enough "high-end talent", but disagree on the front that we didn't acquire quality young talent to grow with moving forward:

Rielly - 18
Kadri - 22 - finished last season 21st in points
Gardiner - 23
JVR- 24
Bernier 24

(A lot of depth coming up with Macwilliams, Percy, Gautier, Biggs etc...)

Mid 20's
Kessel - 26
Franson -26

Our vets -
Dion 28
Lupul - 30 (oldest player on the team)

Were all in love with they way Chicago is built. In the past, Detroit has one person to thank for their development - Scotty Bowman. I think there has been some erosion since his departure in 2008, but as long as Holland doesn't screw up too much he can enjoy the rewards of the best organically made team in modern history. The Chicago Blackhawks are obviously now benefiting from the Bowman influence - which must be a real burr in any Detroit fan's saddle. Were not too bad - Burke gave us a young playoff team moving forward.

But you have a high end gifted front line player now and not a ton to play with him to compete with the Pens and Bruins and countless other true Cup Contenders

They were less than a minute away from eliminating the eastern conference champions last year in a 7 game series. That's competitive imo

[whysoserious]

I agree not enough "high-end talent", but disagree on the front that we didn't acquire quality young talent to grow with moving forward:

Rielly - 18
Kadri - 22 - finished last season 21st in points
Gardiner - 23
JVR- 24
Bernier 24

(A lot of depth coming up with Macwilliams, Percy, Gautier, Biggs etc...)

Of those guys you mention, Rielly is a long way from developing, Gardiner/Kadri/JVR are still inconsistent. If they reach their high end it's still a couple of years away which is in the smack center of the guy we signed to an 8 year deal, right towards the point you'd expect him topping out and beginning the regression in his game.

But I agree, he got young talent and I don't want to make it like the cupboard is bare, but the young talent should have been acquired right when Kessel was acquired to grow with him, not 4 years later while he's entering his prime. That is bad building but it's still good to have some youth.

Mid 20's
Kessel - 26
Franson -26

Kessel's here for good now, Franson even though signed is pretty much a goner with our cap situation. Which goes back to my point about how bad the rest of the contracts on this team are.

Our vets -
Dion 28
Lupul - 30 (oldest player on the team)

Dion is a free agent and may be gone as well like Franson, again all due to poor cap management. If you're gonna lose both those guys, who is gonna replace them? Rielly ain't ready and we're seeing a struggling Gardiner and both of them play a different game than Franson/Phaneuf.

Lupul is the oldest, signed long-term with his own injury problems. But he was starting to turn the corner, too bad he's too far away from our youth that he likely doesn't make a difference overall.

Were all in love with they way Chicago is built. In the past, Detroit has one person to thank for their development - Scotty Bowman. I think there has been some erosion since his departure in 2008, but as long as Holland doesn't screw up too much he can enjoy the rewards of the best organically made team in modern history. The Chicago Blackhawks are obviously now benefiting from the Bowman influence - which must be a real burr in any Detroit fan's saddle. Were not too bad - Burke gave us a young playoff team moving forward.

They were less than a minute away from eliminating the eastern conference champions last year in a 7 game series. That's competitive imo

All this talk about taking Boston to game 7 and almost knocking out that team doesn't mean jack squat. They lost and talent wise are not on the same level. There's always gonna be upsets in every sport, does that mean that the team that pulled off the upset is better? No, they were better in a small period. Does that mean that the team that pulled off the upset is guaranteed to take a step forward? Not necessarily, and in fact those teams actually end up screwing up their build because management assumes they are better than they are. They fast track and make stupid moves like overpaying a Clarkson or signing Bozak to exactly the deal he got. This team doesn't have anyone coming up that projects as a first line C, a big hole, they have cap issues.

This team may in fact end up being a playoff team and they are off to a good start, they could also be just out of the playoffs and that wouldn't be shocking based on the rest of the conference.

[Mohanad]

I agree not enough "high-end talent", but disagree on the front that we didn't acquire quality young talent to grow with moving forward:

Rielly - 18
Kadri - 22 - finished last season 21st in points
Gardiner - 23
JVR- 24
Bernier 24

(A lot of depth coming up with Macwilliams, Percy, Gautier, Biggs etc...)

Of those guys you mention, Rielly is a long way from developing, Gardiner/Kadri/JVR are still inconsistent. If they reach their high end it's still a couple of years away which is in the smack center of the guy we signed to an 8 year deal, right towards the point you'd expect him topping out and beginning the regression in his game.

But I agree, he got young talent and I don't want to make it like the cupboard is bare, but the young talent should have been acquired right when Kessel was acquired to grow with him, not 4 years later while he's entering his prime. That is bad building but it's still good to have some youth.

You can't call a player like Kadri inconsisent meanwhile he had his 1st real shot last season after being dogged by Wilson. Gardiner and JVR have been great for the Leafs thus far - both 23 & 24. These aren't 7 or 8 year vets to write them off as inconsistent players, it doesn't work that way.

Bernier was a high pick, expected to start immediately, and instead had to pay his dues, then watch Quick develop into a great goalie. Didn't complain, just kept working, and supporting the team as best he could.

Looked very good last year when Quick was struggling, the Kings would have likely missed the playoffs without him. I think with the responsibility of being a #1, his numbers will improve.

He's always square to the shooter, very technically sound, a calm goalie. Not the greatest in shootouts thus far, but beyond that, I really think this team is set in goal now.

Sorry, but I disagree - having a young quality core that is producing isn't "bad building" by any stretch.

Kessel's here for good now, Franson even though signed is pretty much a goner with our cap situation. Which goes back to my point about how bad the rest of the contracts on this team are

Dion is a free agent and may be gone as well like Franson, again all due to poor cap management. If you're gonna lose both those guys, who is gonna replace them? Rielly ain't ready and we're seeing a struggling Gardiner and both of them play a different game than Franson/Phaneuf.

Lupul is the oldest, signed long-term with his own injury problems. But he was starting to turn the corner, too bad he's too far away from our youth that he likely doesn't make a difference overall.

With team buyouts, expiring contracts in Kuli - Bolland - Ranger and the cap increasing, it's not a fair assessment to say both Dion and Franson are likely goners next season. I'm not quite clear on what you mean that Lupul doesn't make a difference overall.

All this talk about taking Boston to game 7 and almost knocking out that team doesn't mean jack squat. They lost and talent wise are not on the same level.

You claimed the Leafs have no chance of competing with teams like the Bruins; meanwhile they nearly eliminated them. Now you're saying that series didn't mean jack squat. This is starting to get irrational

[ATLTimekeeper]

Reilly's now a long way away in his development? He made the team on merit in his second season. If Kadri put up another year with similar scoring, he'd be a #1C by most accounts. Enough complaining that we didn't go out and spend all out money on something that just wasn't available this summer. They stayed competitive, young and added size and goaltending depth with the cap going down.

[whysoserious]

I'm not trying to downplay guys like Kadri, JVR, Gardiner or Rielly. They are good pieces but nothing they've done says they are stars. Some Rielly has the potential to be a star on defense, making the team doesn't mean he's established. Do you really believe he'll stay the year? He's here to play his 9 games and likely go down. It's not a lock, he could completely shock and force the Leafs to keep him. That would be good but even as an 18 year old he's far from being a developed defensemen, that's simply a fact, making the team doesn't mean you're an established player.

Gardiner had the injury and was down, then finally started to get back and had a good run at the end of the year. He's been down so far but it's early so we'll leave it at that. Kadri had one good season and people are acting like he's established? I like Kadri but he barely projects as a number 1 C, even with a good offensive year. There's still holes in his game that won't just suddenly fix themselves which is why he's still developing. All these guys are developing, meanwhile Kessels in his prime now and signed long-term.

And to Monahad, you're making a lot fo assumptions about the cap going up because people are talking about it but there's no guarantee and we have to sign our own guys. Again, investing in Phaneuf is a bad mistake if he's looking for big money, he's not that player.

As to the claim of not competing with the contending teams. They are not on the same level of the Bruins or Pens, are you actually arguing they are? One series does not make you on the same level, up until last year and most of the year they were still losing to that team but last year they were at least competing with them. That doesn't make you on the same level.

Again, I'm actually optimistic about pieces of this team, but some of their signings just don't line up and the roster is flawed in general with horrible cap management.

[UN-Owen]

He really hasn't done anything to warrant a raise

[nonameguy]

So everyone is OK with the contract now?

And Reilly is still on the roster doing well..

[LLJ]

So everyone is OK with the contract now?

I don't think anyone can really be "ok" with an 8 year contract, but that's the NHL for you, where ridiculously long contracts seem to be more the norm.

[Mohanad]

Interesting stat:

More points than Phil Kessel over the past 3 seasons: Malkin, Tavares. Kessel is sitting 2 points back of Malkin for 1st on that list.

Not bad for a "below-average" play maker

[Crowned]

Also an interesting stat:

He's 4th in the league in points.
He's 2nd in the league in goals.

[LLJ]

When Kessel gets hot, he racks up points like nobody else in the NHL. He goes on these weeks-long droughts but then racks up 2 or 3x as many points as the league leaders in a very short time. I remember he was like around 20th in points about a month ago, and now look how many points he's accumulated in only a few weeks. But he'll probably go into a drought again before getting hot again a month later. Streaky as hell, but I guess it evens itself out over 82 games.

[leafsfan89]

Kessel only had one bad stretch this year where he had 3 pts in 11 games. They won 5 out of those 11 games and this was right when they lost Bolland. What im really interested in is to see how kessel performs once hes back from the olympic break. Selfishly, Id rather have all the leafs players stay home and rest during the break, but after a grueling tournament, I hope Kessel doesnt take time off from the score board once hes back. March schedule is brutal, 15 games in the month, 3 back to backs, a western road trip. This is all a recipe for disaster.