RealGM

Posted: **Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:10 pm**

EGarrett wrote:
AllanHoustonFan wrote:You're the worst kind of fan. See you in a few years when the Knicks win a ring.
The worst kind of fan is someone blindly supportive of a malicious and incompetent owner and who is delusional about the team's chances. You don't have to lie to yourself to support your team.

Exactly. Blind supporters who attack other fans are the worst type of fan.

I think this thread is sort of sad. Really, there is no point in bitching about the Knicks. You have an owner who seems to hate Knick fans and has no intention of putting a championship contending team out there. The only thing a self-respecting long-time Knick fan should do at this point is to boycott the team until Dolan is gone.

Posted: **Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:35 pm**

Bill Bradley wrote:
EGarrett wrote:
AllanHoustonFan wrote:You're the worst kind of fan. See you in a few years when the Knicks win a ring.
The worst kind of fan is someone blindly supportive of a malicious and incompetent owner and who is delusional about the team's chances. You don't have to lie to yourself to support your team.

Exactly. Blind supporters who attack other fans are the worst type of fan.

I think this thread is sort of sad. Really, there is no point in bitching about the Knicks. You have an owner who seems to hate Knick fans and has no intention of putting a championship contending team out there. The only thing a self-respecting long-time Knick fan should do at this point is to boycott the team until Dolan is gone.

I no longer even have any self-respect

Posted: **Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:21 pm**

EGarrett wrote:
AllanHoustonFan wrote:You're the worst kind of fan. See you in a few years when the Knicks win a ring.
The worst kind of fan is someone blindly supportive of a malicious and incompetent owner and who is delusional about the team's chances. You don't have to lie to yourself to support your team.

Truth. Great response.

The only thing that could make me jump ship for good is Isiah becoming GM-President-coach-towel boy-bathroom janitor-etc. once again. Once Dolan does that.....fk the Knicks, Id wash my hands clean after 20 years of fandom.

Posted: **Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:40 pm**

So I took a hiatus because of all the Lin furor and now I'm back. Anyone kind enough to fill me in on what's happened so far?

Posted: **Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:01 pm**

Bill Bradley wrote:
EGarrett wrote:
AllanHoustonFan wrote:You're the worst kind of fan. See you in a few years when the Knicks win a ring.
The worst kind of fan is someone blindly supportive of a malicious and incompetent owner and who is delusional about the team's chances. You don't have to lie to yourself to support your team.

Exactly. Blind supporters who attack other fans are the worst type of fan.

I think this thread is sort of sad. Really, there is no point in bitching about the Knicks. You have an owner who seems to hate Knick fans and has no intention of putting a championship contending team out there. The only thing a self-respecting long-time Knick fan should do at this point is to boycott the team until Dolan is gone.

I think what's sad is that Mods felt the need to include Melo and JR Smith in the thread title. Whatever faction of fans are upset with Carmelo or JR should be kept entirely separate from those who recognize and want to call out the real problem -- namely, ownership.

To me, it's sad because it promotes an almost fascist "love it or GTFO" discourse that belittles any serious commentary about the flaws of ownership/management. You can't pigeonhole Dolan hate in the same category as Melo hate or even Lin/Gallo love.

To me, it's sad how long it's taken fans to come around to the idea that the real problem here isn't Carmelo Anthony or Mike D'Antoni or Shandon Anderson or even Isiah Thomas. The real problem is that fans keep coming back for more and more of Jim Dolan's crap. If there's widespread scapegoating of everybody else, then Dolan can keep on keeping on with his parade of horrible management forever.

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:23 am**

If Dolan was a president or PM or leader in some Middle East country, he'd have gone into hiding now, much like the fugitive Iraq VP who was sentenced to death. He'd tear down a sports team, organization, city or country. I think it's a serious matter how this fool is tearing down our beloved team. We just haven't taken it seriously to the point he's forced to sell. To me, if the majority of (especially large) fanbase of a sports franchise feel and think that the owner is incompetent (in his case, VERY incompetent), they should be able to voice this case be heard by the city's mayor (Bloomberg) and legitimately and lawfully demand the owner sell the team. Isn't it sad if you think there's a possibility that Dolan would be the owner of Knicks in our lifetime?

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:04 am**

Please come back Thomas these guys are annoying.

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:18 am**

siar617 wrote:Please come back Thomas these guys are annoying.

You are a sadist.

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:53 pm**

Dolan gets a bad rap, which is somewhat undeserved. He has basically given his GMs an open check to acquire whatever talent they can. In almost every other setting, this is not a bad thing. The problem is the restrictive NBA system, in which the fate of a team is completely tied to ping pong balls in the draft lottery.

If you want to see a really bad owner look at Robert Sarver, who sells draft picks for extra cash.

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:04 pm**

Sark wrote:Dolan gets a bad rap, which is somewhat undeserved. He has basically given his GMs an open check to acquire whatever talent they can. In almost every other setting, this is not a bad thing. The problem is the restrictive NBA system, in which the fate of a team is completely tied to ping pong balls in the draft lottery.

If you want to see a really bad owner look at Robert Sarver, who sells draft picks for extra cash.

He gets a bad rap partly because of who he associates himself with. Staying friends with someone who put the franchise through perhaps it's most embarassing period is inexcusable. If I was hired someone who cost my company several millions of dollars in damages and changed the perception of the company negatively, I would not want to be involved with that person anymore.

How can you stay friends with someone like that?

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:09 pm**

cgmw wrote:
Bill Bradley wrote:Exactly. Blind supporters who attack other fans are the worst type of fan.

I think this thread is sort of sad. Really, there is no point in bitching about the Knicks. You have an owner who seems to hate Knick fans and has no intention of putting a championship contending team out there. The only thing a self-respecting long-time Knick fan should do at this point is to boycott the team until Dolan is gone.

I think what's sad is that Mods felt the need to include Melo and JR Smith in the thread title. Whatever faction of fans are upset with Carmelo or JR should be kept entirely separate from those who recognize and want to call out the real problem -- namely, ownership.

To me, it's sad because it promotes an almost fascist "love it or GTFO" discourse that belittles any serious commentary about the flaws of ownership/management. You can't pigeonhole Dolan hate in the same category as Melo hate or even Lin/Gallo love.

Agree about the mods. Knicks mods are particularly bad right now, with the exception of TKF and nyknicks2k2, who rarely post. Free thought is not something the mods excel at or promote. In fact, a couple of the mods on this board (not naming names but we know who they are) are probably the most intolerant, attacking, baiting posters here. But it's not so different from the first Isiah regime. Posters who complained about the team got the same treatment and most were run off the board. It's just history repeating itself because Isiah is such a divisive figure.

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:48 pm**

Sark wrote:Dolan gets a bad rap, which is somewhat undeserved. He has basically given his GMs an open check to acquire whatever talent they can. In almost every other setting, this is not a bad thing. The problem is the restrictive NBA system, in which the fate of a team is completely tied to ping pong balls in the draft lottery.

If you want to see a really bad owner look at Robert Sarver, who sells draft picks for extra cash.

Thank you for posting this. The "open checkbook" argument is the #1 excuse for Jim Dolan, and I think it's important that fans understand how completely off-base it is.

You know the big difference between Jim Dolan and Bob Sarver? Dolan makes a lot of money off the Knicks. In fact, over the past 15 years as the Knicks basketball team became a laughing stock by spending a fortune to produce a losing product, MSG itself has become more and more profitable during Dolan's reign.

In my eyes, there are two main problems with Dolan's ownership.

1. He treats the Knicks not as a basketball team, but as a subsidiary to the overall media corporation which he considers his main occupation. Meaning, the priority of the Knicks is not first to the Knicks; it's to the greater MSG media corporation. Assuming a basketball team should be invested in winning championships, this is an inherent conflict of interest that Jim Dolan has made absolutely no effort to dispel.

2. Dolan's character flaws cripple the actual basketball operations. Instead of insulating basketball operations from his own admitted ignorance, he imposes himself and his excessively poor values/judgement on the entire organizational structure of the Knicks. The most blatant example, of course, being the implementation of a system that rewards loyalty and cronyism (or in the case of Chris Smith, nepotism) instead of actual skill. In my opinion, you see many other character flaws -- including entitlement and drug-addiction -- affect the Knicks time and again through quick-fix, glitzy moves seen as shortcuts to greatness.

Ultimately, his biggest flaw is that he feels the need to impose his will on the Knicks at all. Al Davis and Jerry Jones immersed themselves in football and at least attempted to become experts. Mark Cuban learned on the fly by taking a modern CEO's approach of creating a vision and then delegating to trusted experts.

When the defining characteristic of an ownership style is treason, that's a pretty big problem. To me, Jim Dolan is right there alongside Donald Sterling (you know, the slumlord racist who heckled his own players) at the table of the worst of the worst of owners in all sports.

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:54 pm**

cgmw wrote:I think what's sad is that Mods felt the need to include Melo and JR Smith in the thread title.

I think this thread is a merged from all the other "complaining threads" from a while ago. The title just indicates so - wanna bitch about these, do it here. Kinda like the Lin thread.

Whatever faction of fans are upset with Carmelo or JR should be kept entirely separate from those who recognize and want to call out the real problem -- namely, ownership.

This is probably on the comments they made on Lin's contract and the locker room "atmosphere." At least these, are not related to Dolan.

To me, it's sad how long it's taken fans to come around to the idea that the real problem here isn't Carmelo Anthony or Mike D'Antoni or Shandon Anderson or even Isiah Thomas. The real problem is that fans keep coming back for more and more of Jim Dolan's crap. If there's widespread scapegoating of everybody else, then Dolan can keep on keeping on with his parade of horrible management forever.

I think as long as MSG is profitable, I don't think Dolan would give a damn about what "fans" think, which is just sad.

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:07 pm**

Dolan showed some susceptibility to outside pressure when Stern reportedly pressured him into exiling Isiah and hiring Walsh. IMO, Walsh signed his own pink slip by making the Knicks good enough to relieve the very pressure that got him hired in the first place.

Here are 5 very real ways in which Dolan could be forced by public pressure into actually doing the right thing (like GTFO of the way and hiring an autonomous/competent basketball staff):

1) Isiah becomes a public figurehead again;
2) Carmelo & Amar'e implode like they did against the Celtics in '11 and the Heat in '12;
3) Jeremy Lin becomes so good that even Stephen A Smith says so;
4) The Brooklyn Nets become better/more popular than anticipated; and/or
5) Some other lowlife scandal comes to light a-la Anucha Browne Saunders

And if you don't think Jeremy Lin's contract or locker room atmosphere have anything to do with ownership, then with all due respect I don't think you understand how organizations work. Big companies like MSG (the Knicks, included) run from the top down. A corrupt or incompetent leader will create dysfunction at every level below him; and the Lin situation and lockeroom discord are two primary examples of such dysfunction IMO.

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:51 pm**

cgmw wrote:And if you don't think Jeremy Lin's contract or locker room atmosphere have anything to do with ownership, then with all due respect I don't think you understand how organizations work. Big companies like MSG (the Knicks, included) run from the top down. A corrupt or incompetent leader will create dysfunction at every level below him; and the Lin situation and lockeroom discord are two primary examples of such dysfunction IMO.

You misunderstood me, or I wasn't clear enough. The blur I made on "Lin's contract and locker room atmosphere" was on why Melo and JR's names got on the thread title.

I do understand one of the reasons they would make the comments (other than being dumb and dumber) is definitely related/has something to do w/the ownership/organization.

Here are 5 very real ways in which Dolan could be forced by public pressure into actually doing the right thing (like GTFO of the way and hiring an autonomous/competent basketball staff):

1) Isiah becomes a public figurehead again;
2) Carmelo & Amar'e implode like they did against the Celtics in '11 and the Heat in '12;
3) Jeremy Lin becomes so good that even Stephen A Smith says so;
4) The Brooklyn Nets become better/more popular than anticipated; and/or
5) Some other lowlife scandal comes to light a-la Anucha Browne Saunders

Just wanna comment on the list:

1) They are on the same side. So I don't see that.
2) If Melo and Stat perform, that means (at least him, who was born on the third base), he did things right, so there is nothing to change.
3) Lin's gone, and Knicks still sell seats. So?
4) Um, maybe, but again, Knicks would still sellout, so...
5) Only if that happens to Dolan.

So, it's the same old Knicks.

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:25 pm**

I don't know, dude.

All the scapegoats are gone. If the Knicks lose, Carmelo & Amar'e have beef, Jeremy Lin is a bonafide star, AND the Nets somehow become the toast of the town, then Dolan will feel plenty of heat.

Not just from the tabloids, but potentially from cable subscribors, season ticket holders, and ultimately MSG investors. Do I think it's likely? No. Probably not. But realistically, by not being competitive for so long, Dolan's already lost one generation of young fans. Eventually this horse sh*t product will come back to bite him in his fat ass.

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:34 pm**

2004: $40 million in taxes for 39 wins
2006: $37 million in taxes for 23 wins
2007: $45 million in taxes for 33 wins
2008: $20 million in taxes for 23 wins
2009: $24 million in taxes for 32 wins
2010: $15 million in taxes for 29 wins

He’s even found creative ways to burn money, like when he effectively bought the Balkman pick from the Raptors for a cool $30 million.
He hasn't felt any pressure and he never will. He wont leave it would be impossible unless his father were to force him out. This will never happen sorry. Imagine if the day you were born you were given a billion dollars and a golden ticket(MSG) by your dad. How much pressure would you really feel if the media doesn't like you. If you think Lebron surrounds himself with yes-men what does Dolan surround himself with.

Posted: **Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:45 pm**

postcall wrote:2004: $40 million in taxes for 39 wins
2006: $37 million in taxes for 23 wins
2007: $45 million in taxes for 33 wins
2008: $20 million in taxes for 23 wins
2009: $24 million in taxes for 32 wins
2010: $15 million in taxes for 29 wins

He’s even found creative ways to burn money, like when he effectively bought the Balkman pick from the Raptors for a cool $30 million.
He hasn't felt any pressure and he never will. He wont leave it would be impossible unless his father were to force him out. This will never happen sorry. Imagine if the day you were born you were given a billion dollars and a golden ticket(MSG) by your dad. How much pressure would you really feel if the media doesn't like you. If you think Lebron surrounds himself with yes-men what does Dolan surround himself with.

Listen, I realize I'm pissing in the wind here, but there does seem to be a shift taking place right now. Previously, the public image for Knicks failure was just about anybody but James Dolan. If he's insucceptable to public pressure, why did Isiah get fired? Why was Walsh hired? Why does MSG have the largest/most stringent PR department in basketball?

Up until now, Dolan has somehow avoided becoming the public face of all the horrible management decisions he's made. The last time he publicly took heat was the sex-harrasment case that forced Isiah out and Walsh in. At this point, all potential scapegoats have been alienated or exiled with the exception of Carmelo Anthony.

And maybe that's where this goes. Maybe the next fall guy for Dolan's failures will be Melo.

Posted: **Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:54 am**

cgmw wrote: I'm pissing in the wind here.

Posted: **Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:22 am**

cgmw wrote:Listen, I realize I'm pissing in the wind here, but there does seem to be a shift taking place right now. Previously, the public image for Knicks failure was just about anybody but James Dolan. If he's insucceptable to public pressure, why did Isiah get fired? Why was Walsh hired? Why does MSG have the largest/most stringent PR department in basketball?

Up until now, Dolan has somehow avoided becoming the public face of all the horrible management decisions he's made. The last time he publicly took heat was the sex-harrasment case that forced Isiah out and Walsh in. At this point, all potential scapegoats have been alienated or exiled with the exception of Carmelo Anthony.

And maybe that's where this goes. Maybe the next fall guy for Dolan's failures will be Melo.

Aside from a horrendous tenure, Zeke embarrassed the Knicks with a sex scandal, even that wasn’t enough to get him fired. It was David Stern who finally had to stepped in and forced Dolan to replace Thomas with Walsh.

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