Don't sell them short.. Knicks can take the #1 seed

[Bill Bradley]

Also, I don't think you need to look at Woodson's tenure as the sample size.

Look at how the team did once Tony Douglas was no longer the starting PG (i.e. when Lin took over). I don't know what the exact record is, but our winning % was definitely playoff caliber. And that was over 2/3 of last season.

I don't think you can use the Lin era to predict how we will do this season.

I'm not using the Lin era. I'm using the 'tony douglas wasn't our starting PG' era.

Okay so your argument is that so long as Toney Douglas isn't point guard, knicks will be a championship contender. Doesn't really matter who the Knicks plug in as pg so long as it is not him.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

Okay so your argument is that so long as Toney Douglas isn't point guard, knicks will be a championship contender. Doesn't really matter who the Knicks plug in as pg so long as it is not him.

My argument is that as long as we have point guards of Lin and Baron's caliber, we will make the playoffs. My evidence is > 2/3 of last season. And since Felton and Baron are of Lin and Baron's caliber (assuming Felton has a bounce-back year and Kidd stays relatively healthy), we will not miss the playoffs this year.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

felton coming off a career worst season. kidd who isn't the same kidd as before. prig a question mark.

Saying "kidd is not the same as before" is a meaningless argument. Kidd "wasn't the same as before" when he won a ring with Dallas in 2011.

[Bill Bradley]

Okay so your argument is that so long as Toney Douglas isn't point guard, knicks will be a championship contender. Doesn't really matter who the Knicks plug in as pg so long as it is not him.

My argument is that as long as we have point guards of Lin and Baron's caliber, we will make the playoffs. My evidence is > 2/3 of last season. And since Felton and Baron are of Lin and Baron's caliber, we will not miss the playoffs this year.

Disagree. I think the Knicks have significantly downgraded at pg. Felton is garbage and brings a poor work ethic and bad attitude. How many fat, out of shape PGs excelled in this league? Kidd is a shell of his former self.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

Disagree. I think the Knicks have significantly downgraded at pg. Felton is garbage and brings a poor work ethic and bad attitude. How many fat, out of shape PGs excelled in this league? Kidd is a shell of his former self.

Felton was not garbage in 2010 and 2011. He was garbage last year but I think that was due to him being unhappy with being traded twice and because he didn't have time to get in shape before the season. But I may be wrong.

As for Kidd, see my post above.

And regardless, they're closer to Lin/Baron than they are to Douglas/Bibby.

[Bill Bradley]

Disagree. I think the Knicks have significantly downgraded at pg. Felton is garbage and brings a poor work ethic and bad attitude. How many fat, out of shape PGs excelled in this league? Kidd is a shell of his former self.

Felton was not garbage in 2010 and 2011. He was garbage last year but I think that was due to him being unhappy with being traded twice and because he didn't have time to get in shape before the season. But I may be wrong.

As for Kidd, see my post above.

And regardless, they're closer to Lin/Baron than they are to Douglas/Bibby.

Okay see my post above. When you have to go back a couple of seasons and base your premise on the HOPE that a player will be dramatically different than his most recent performance (and recent photos of his fat ass) you're reaching. That's my general point.

[Bill Bradley]

Remember posts every offseason about how different Curry would be because he was now motivated? Marbury too? Tim Thomas? Same thing. Players rarely change.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

Remember posts every offseason about how different Curry would be because he was now motivated? Marbury too? Tim Thomas? Same thing. Players rarely change.

But those guys were fat and lazy for multiple seasons. With Felton it was one season, and somewhat understandable given the circumstances... the season started with less than a month's notice. I agree that a fat Felton would put our playoff chances in jeopardy, but I think even the espn'ers would agree that he won't be as bad as last season.

[knicksnyk]

Remember posts every offseason about how different Curry would be because he was now motivated? Marbury too? Tim Thomas? Same thing. Players rarely change.

But those guys were fat and lazy for multiple seasons. With Felton it was one season, and somewhat understandable given the circumstances... the season started with less than a month's notice. I agree that a fat Felton would put our playoff chances in jeopardy, but I think even the espn'ers would agree that he won't be as bad as last season.

felton has a history of being out of shape & coming into camp out of shape so that he can play strong. wasnt just last year man. & it isn't understandable at all considering that guys like shump lin landry novak & other guys around the NBA etc all came into the season in shape ready to work. & also if u look at feltons numbers his year in NY really was in line with his career numbers. look at his fg% in iso, spot up pnr ball handling transition. the numbers are pretty similar compared to the knicks & when he was with the blazers.

http://screencast.com/t/vZfSI5GU

Basically, in his most used plays, Felton's performance was about the same in POR as NY, just used plays differently. And his POR usage is much more in line with how he'll be used in a Woodson-style offense than his dantoni play usage. He'll have P&Rs, lots of spot-ups, isos. That difference in how he used plays was a large part of the difference between a career year in NY and a career-worst year in POR. Not much difference btw Felton's "great" 2010-11 and his "awful" 2011-12.

[vallen]

Talk = Cheap

I think were going to be better this year, but im not just going to give them the benefit of the doubt. outside of the Linsanity period, our team didnt show many signs of unity or chemistry with our big 3. in fact they struggled. i know it was Mike D's fault, and we never had a PG, and bla bla bla, but excuses get easy when you lose. and between the Fatty and the Oldies, it looks like we prepared a whole new batch of excuses just in case.

again talk is easy pre-seaseon, and excuses come easier post-season. id like them to go out and get their respect the old fashioned way, by earning it......

[DocZaius]

I'm not even gonna get started on this thread

Not worth my time

[ORANGEandBLUE]

Well there is a key difference: he had a much lower usage in Portland because he was out of shape.

And despite being out of shape his whole career, his numbers are pretty comparable to what Lin averaged as a starter for us. Lin has a big edge in FG%, and Felton has a big edge in TO's.

To be clear, I'll take Lin any day of the week cause of upside. My point is just that Felton will more or less replace what we got from Lin on average last year. In any event, Felton is a HUGE upgrade over TD and Bibby.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

I'm not even gonna get started on this thread

Not worth my time

this post is about as extensive of a contribution I've seen you make on any thread.

[J0rdan4life42o]

Mr. Bradley is painting an entirely negative picture of Raymond Felton here based on a 2/3 of a single toxic season in Portland. There was a chaotic environment in Portland under McMillian. Similar to how D'Antoni lost many of the Knick players, Nate lost a chunk of the Portland players, including Felton. You can blame Felton for not coming into a lockout shortened season in shape and for being one of the leaders of the Portland mutiny against their coach, but to call him garbage based on 2/3 of that season is illogical.

Go ask Portland fans how chubby Raymond played once McMillian was given the boot. They may have to grind their teeth saying it, but they will admit he played much better for them following the coach's departure.

You can question Raymond's character and professionalism based on what he and several other players did last year to basically throw the season to get rid of their coach, but his basketball skill and talent doesn't go hand in hand with his actions. It was an isolated incident and the fact that there were more than a handful of players who shared a similar sentiment regarding the coach shows that Felton was totally in the wrong.

Fact is, the Knicks point guard rotation going into next season is immensely better and will be far from the reason why NY can't compete for the East.

[Bill Bradley]

I have no respect for any professional athlete wh cares so little about their profession hat they aren't in top shape. Have any of you seen the recent Felton pics? He is fatter than ever. Things like this do not get better in older age, they get worse. When you find yourself making excuses for players over and over again you at some point need to question that player. I didn't even like Felton at hi best in his previous Knicks tenure. He was a ball hog, only passed to Amare, had to learn to run pick and roll on the fly, and was breaking down when Knicks traded him due to poor conditioning.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

Yeah, but D'Antoni's offense will break down a lot of PG's. Ask Jeremy Lin.

And let's not act like Felton was entirely broken down... he went on to play 31 mpg in Denver and shot a blistering 46% from 3.

[damedash09]

good to have faith, but this isn't going to happen. Best thing i see is winning the division and claiming a top 4 seed.

[knicksnyk]

Well there is a key difference: he had a much lower usage in Portland because he was out of shape.

And despite being out of shape his whole career, his numbers are pretty comparable to what Lin averaged as a starter for us. Lin has a big edge in FG%, and Felton has a big edge in TO's.

To be clear, I'll take Lin any day of the week cause of upside. My point is just that Felton will more or less replace what we got from Lin on average last year. In any event, Felton is a HUGE upgrade over TD and Bibby.

feltons usage rate in NY was 22.6 in portland was 20.8 not that big of a difference. his numbers were no where near Lin's. Lin was a lot better at scoring in ISO & pnr. u can say felton averaged 17 & 9 & Lin averaged 18 & 8 but if you do ure hmwk and check deeper lin was better. Lin's TS% was better his ST% BLK% and ability to get to the free throw line all better. Lin's ability to dish the ball & set guys up for high % shots was on the level of andre miller (who is as pure of a pg as you can get) His ability to create off the drible better likely even his spot up shooting was better & Lin isn't very good at that. even defensively lin was better. Maybe the only thing felton is better at his turnovers & transition the two things that Lin was the worst at. everything else Lin was better at u can't say they will replace more or less. these are just facts homie he is a downgrade. even if lin sucks next year doesnt change the fact that felton isn't a good pg.

Yeah, but D'Antoni's offense will break down a lot of PG's. Ask Jeremy Lin.

And let's not act like Felton was entirely broken down... he went on to play 31 mpg in Denver and shot a blistering 46% from 3.

21 games out of 534 games he shoots 46% from 3. lets hope he bring that to NY

[J0rdan4life42o]

I have no respect for any professional athlete wh cares so little about their profession hat they aren't in top shape. Have any of you seen the recent Felton pics? He is fatter than ever. Things like this do not get better in older age, they get worse. When you find yourself making excuses for players over and over again you at some point need to question that player. I didn't even like Felton at hi best in his previous Knicks tenure. He was a ball hog, only passed to Amare, had to learn to run pick and roll on the fly, and was breaking down when Knicks traded him due to poor conditioning.

Ok, so you have no respect for him because he doesn't start getting in shape until training camp. Fair enough. But consider this, as long as he's in top physical shape when the season starts, why should you care? There are players in the NBA that NEED the strict regiment that an NBA training camp provides to get in top shape. I don't necessarily agree that it's the only way to go for a pro-athlete, but I don't think it's enough of a reason to lose respect for a player who has constantly shown he gets in shape towards the start of an NBA season (unless it's a case like Eddy Curry). No one's making excuses for him. This is just what he does, but as long as he's in shape for the regular season, I really don't mind him not being in peak physical condition yet. It's also what's separates a player like Felton from guys like Melo, Amare and Tyson, as well as the the other elite point guards in the league. It doesn't make him a horrible player, it just shows that he will never be able to reach greater heights because to do so, he'd have to change his training routine and mentality.

As far as calling him a ball hog, only passing to Amare and breaking down after being traded to Denver...well that's a bunch of hogwash. The ball was required to be in his hands because of Dantoni's system, he didn't only pass to Amare and he performed just fine for Denver.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

feltons usage rate in NY was 22.6 in portland was 20.8 not that big of a difference. his numbers were no where near Lin's. Lin was a lot better at scoring in ISO & pnr. u can say felton averaged 17 & 9 & Lin averaged 18 & 8 but if you do ure hmwk and check deeper lin was better. Lin's TS% was better his ST% BLK% and ability to get to the free throw line all better. Lin's ability to dish the ball & set guys up for high % shots was on the level of andre miller (who is as pure of a pg as you can get) His ability to create off the drible better likely even his spot up shooting was better & Lin isn't very good at that. even defensively lin was better. Maybe the only thing felton is better at his turnovers & transition the two things that Lin was the worst at. everything else Lin was better at u can't say they will replace more or less. these are just facts homie he is a downgrade. even if lin sucks next year doesnt change the fact that felton isn't a good pg.

Look at Lin's post all-star numbers v. Felton's career numbers. They are very similar.

Lin 6.8 apt, Felton 6.7.
Lin 1.6 spg, Felton 1.4.
Lin 41.4 fg% Felton 41.2%
Lin 14.9 ppg Felton 13.7

Felton has the clear advantage in TO's, Lin has the clear advantage in ft's

We were winning games at a playoff-calibur clip during that stretch (7-7, including 3-4 games without Tyson), so I expect that to continue as long as Felton can play at that level. Was that Lin at his best? Probably not, but that shows you what level of wins we get when our PG is playing at that level. And to repeat a point that nobody has attempted to rebut (because you can't), Felton is hands down better than TD/Bibby.