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OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead CON

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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#241 » by Fury » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:52 am

Do some of ya'll think that your semi-automatic in your garage is what's holding the government back from total authority? Really? REALLY?
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#242 » by Moose » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:53 am

Grinditout wrote:
Moose wrote:
I know you may be a bit naive and all that, but governments don't always remain good for the people ...don't be so smug and cozy....things can slip away quickly...or methodically and unknowing.

Even if you did have guns to "protect yourself" from the government. It's the friggin government, they'll have more guns than you and more ways to make you disappear. No amount of firearms will help you unless you seclude yourself secretly in an underground bunker and live off the grid.



If that were the case, monarchs would rule everywhere and the USA would not exist...I guess people should just give up and die if they live under tyranny.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#243 » by Rasho Brezec » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:54 am

Moose wrote:
Grinditout wrote:
Moose wrote:And if we ever need to defend ourselves against a corrupt governent, we would need guns...

In the words of dictator fidel castro to his cuban people, 'guns, for what?'


You seem kinda paranoid about the government huh?



No, but we don't know the future and these decisions shouldn't only be based around one event or one time period.

In 200 years, the US may be much less Democratic and need change....sometimes change happens through revolt ....perhaps through war...dictatorships don't allow their citizensto have weapons for a reason.

Let's not be so naive ...nations fall and change, the USA may be no different.

You're the naive one if you think having a right to own a gun scares any government with a 700 billion military budget.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#244 » by Fury » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:55 am

Good thing I have this revolver. Ol' Uncle Sam can back the **** up.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#245 » by Anotha Knicks fan » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:57 am

I think the posts below pretty much sum up how I feel. CGMW pretty much restated what I said earlier in a much more eloquent way. I appreciate it.

Cgmw said:

Sad to me that this becomes the same heated tired argument about gun control that we've all heard a thousand times before.

Take politics out (if you can). When there's a problem -- and clearly there's a problem -- the correct methodology to solving it is to ask yourself what's causing the problem, and how do I stop it (the cause/s)?

Access to guns isn't causing mass murder. It's enabling it. But for access to guns, those children would not be dead (if you want to wrangle semantics you can add the word "by GSW" to the end). Likewise lackadaisical or non-existent law enforcement did not cause the problem. It simply failed to prevent it. Diverting resources to law enforcement specifically targeting these types of killings might help stop a psycho from killing, but it won't stop the psychopath from becoming a psychopath to begin with.

To me, the only real answer is for non-partison experts in law enforcement, psychology, and criminal justice to figure out what the F is going on, and then for society (through politicians) to take real steps toward preventing it. Since this is a slow, imperfect process fraught with potential corruption, incompetence, and political self-dealing, I have little faith it'll happen.

Instead what I expect is a politically driven "solution" which addresses the symptoms but ignores the disease. Namely, I expect the Right to concede ground on gun control while the Left gets tougher on penalties for the criminally insane. IMO it's an idiotic approach driven by panic, mass stupidity, and desperate opportunistic politicians who are too busy staying elected to truly care.

Should there be tighter gun control? Duh. Of course. It's idiotic, Draconian, and ass-backwards that we don't. But that's not going to solve the problem.

And on the flip side of the coin ibraheim also keyed in on a societal issue that I've had for years.

Ibraheim718 said:
Mental health care needs to be accessible and the cost needs to be low.

The other issue is people need to start caring about one another... and they need to start being vigilant. We should be encouraged to start protecting each other... for sticking up for the less fortunate or those in danger. If you see someone being mistreated.. stands need to be taken. We can't have this mentality that ALL we do is look out for our own lives.

I've got nothing but the utmost respect (the highest respect) for people who sacrifice their own lives to save others... or for people who react and care enough to do something that doesn't benefit themselves but others.

I've often thought about what would happen if I was in a sticky situation where someones life is in danger.. and my mind was made up a long time ago.. I'm doing everything I can even to help that person even if my life is in jeopardy. I've dove into situations where someone was getting beat to death.. in south philly to be exact.. a kid was getting beat on the head with a shovel... me and my lady dove in and broke the fight up.. luckily the victim survived but suffered some brain damage... even the damn cops just looked on and snickered that the kid deserved it.

My personal feelings on gun control, since it is what this thread turned into, is that I don't own one. I've wanted to own one for some time now to protect my family, and I feel I will go out and get one sometime in the future. Notice I said gun, and not a semi automatic rifle. If I am in the need of a semi automatic rifle to defend myself, then I imagine I'd be in a bigger situation than I can possibly handle by myself, and if that's the case, then so be it.

I think the bigger issue here as I stated before is the decay of society as a whole. No one really gives an f about another human being. It's like everyone is out for theirs, screw whoever gets in the way. You see that type of attitude everywhere. I remember being a kid in BK, and not having to worry about ish like this. Walking home from school, riding the train, etc... now if I lived in NY, or any other place for that matter, I'd be hard pressed to do the same with my kids. My wife was telling me how she is worried about leaving our little one at daycare. Is this what we've come to? I remember living in neighborhoods. Not just my apartment. Neighbors would keep watch on the neighborhood kids, and for the most part we behaved because of it.

Its just turned into a sick sick world ya'll. I'm with Ibraheim and the few that would be willing to risk their lives for the greater good. I think these are values that need to be reinstituted in our lives. Caring for one another and standing up for what's right. Sounds corny, and probably not as sexy as shooting up a liquor store and getting away in a fast car or whatnot, but it's what this society needs. It starts at home...
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#246 » by johnnywishbone » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:58 am

Moose wrote:
Grinditout wrote:
Moose wrote:
I know you may be a bit naive and all that, but governments don't always remain good for the people ...don't be so smug and cozy....things can slip away quickly...or methodically and unknowing.

Even if you did have guns to "protect yourself" from the government. It's the friggin government, they'll have more guns than you and more ways to make you disappear. No amount of firearms will help you unless you seclude yourself secretly in an underground bunker and live off the grid.



If that were the case, monarchs would rule everywhere and the USA would not exist...I guess people should just give up and die if they live under tyranny.


Mr. Rip Van Winkle please wake up. I know this is going to be alarming but you are now in the 21st century. We no longer have to have armed insurrections to change the government. We have these vehicles called "elections" that allow us to change the government. And we have this other invention called the "Internet" that makes it impossible to prevent speech.

You are not going to even believe this but even in the last century a lawyer in India threw out the British empire by going on a hunger strike! And all of Eastern Europe was liberated from Russia by people going out into the streets and protesting. So don't worry you don't need that musket anymore you are perfectly safe from the government without it.

And don't worry about the "monarchy" anymore. The Queen of England is perfectly harmless.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#247 » by Moose » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:01 am

Gun control and common sense laws are fine...I dont want mentally ill people or criminals having guns either...I'm just discussing the banning of the second amendment.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#248 » by kfig5 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:06 am

I agree that banning the second amendment is wrong...but I think restrictions and regulations that make it more difficult to obtain a gun are necessary. We need background checks, access to criminal records, and no history of mental health issues.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#249 » by Moose » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:10 am

johnnywishbone wrote:
Moose wrote:

If that were the case, monarchs would rule everywhere and the USA would not exist...I guess people should just give up and die if they live under tyranny.


Mr. Rip Van Winkle please wake up. I know this is going to be alarming but you are now in the 21st century. We no longer have to have armed insurrections to change the government. We have these vehicles called "elections" that allow us to change the government. And we have this other invention called the "Internet" that makes it impossible to prevent speech.

You are going to even believe this but even in the last century a lawyer in India threw out the British empire by going on a hunger strike! And all of Eastern Europe was liberated from Russia by people going out into the streets and protesting. So don't worry you don't need that musket anymore you are perfectly safe from the government without it.

And don't worry about the "monarchy" anymore. The Queen of England is perfectly harmless.



Lol....iran held an election, how did that go?...pretty sure the internet existed when that election took place as well...

I'm not saying it is likely, but when you get complacent, that is when bad things can happen...

It is one of the reasons 9/11 happened...we got too comfortable ....you are all young, I'm sure under 40, 30, maybe even under 25...you should be very much focused on preserving as many rights as you can...

Just don't get so comfortable that you allow yourselves to be run over.


Even if a terrible war occurred and we needed to protect ourselves from other soldiers of a foreign land ...things happen....even the unlikely needs to be thought of.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#250 » by Little Italia » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:14 am

Anotha Knicks fan wrote:I think the posts below pretty much sum up how I feel. CGMW pretty much restated what I said earlier in a much more eloquent way. I appreciate it.

Cgmw said:

Sad to me that this becomes the same heated tired argument about gun control that we've all heard a thousand times before.

Take politics out (if you can). When there's a problem -- and clearly there's a problem -- the correct methodology to solving it is to ask yourself what's causing the problem, and how do I stop it (the cause/s)?

Access to guns isn't causing mass murder. It's enabling it. But for access to guns, those children would not be dead (if you want to wrangle semantics you can add the word "by GSW" to the end). Likewise lackadaisical or non-existent law enforcement did not cause the problem. It simply failed to prevent it. Diverting resources to law enforcement specifically targeting these types of killings might help stop a psycho from killing, but it won't stop the psychopath from becoming a psychopath to begin with.

To me, the only real answer is for non-partison experts in law enforcement, psychology, and criminal justice to figure out what the F is going on, and then for society (through politicians) to take real steps toward preventing it. Since this is a slow, imperfect process fraught with potential corruption, incompetence, and political self-dealing, I have little faith it'll happen.

Instead what I expect is a politically driven "solution" which addresses the symptoms but ignores the disease. Namely, I expect the Right to concede ground on gun control while the Left gets tougher on penalties for the criminally insane. IMO it's an idiotic approach driven by panic, mass stupidity, and desperate opportunistic politicians who are too busy staying elected to truly care.

Should there be tighter gun control? Duh. Of course. It's idiotic, Draconian, and ass-backwards that we don't. But that's not going to solve the problem.

And on the flip side of the coin ibraheim also keyed in on a societal issue that I've had for years.

Ibraheim718 said:
Mental health care needs to be accessible and the cost needs to be low.

The other issue is people need to start caring about one another... and they need to start being vigilant. We should be encouraged to start protecting each other... for sticking up for the less fortunate or those in danger. If you see someone being mistreated.. stands need to be taken. We can't have this mentality that ALL we do is look out for our own lives.

I've got nothing but the utmost respect (the highest respect) for people who sacrifice their own lives to save others... or for people who react and care enough to do something that doesn't benefit themselves but others.

I've often thought about what would happen if I was in a sticky situation where someones life is in danger.. and my mind was made up a long time ago.. I'm doing everything I can even to help that person even if my life is in jeopardy. I've dove into situations where someone was getting beat to death.. in south philly to be exact.. a kid was getting beat on the head with a shovel... me and my lady dove in and broke the fight up.. luckily the victim survived but suffered some brain damage... even the damn cops just looked on and snickered that the kid deserved it.

My personal feelings on gun control, since it is what this thread turned into, is that I don't own one. I've wanted to own one for some time now to protect my family, and I feel I will go out and get one sometime in the future. Notice I said gun, and not a semi automatic rifle. If I am in the need of a semi automatic rifle to defend myself, then I imagine I'd be in a bigger situation than I can possibly handle by myself, and if that's the case, then so be it.

I think the bigger issue here as I stated before is the decay of society as a whole. No one really gives an f about another human being. It's like everyone is out for theirs, screw whoever gets in the way. You see that type of attitude everywhere. I remember being a kid in BK, and not having to worry about ish like this. Walking home from school, riding the train, etc... now if I lived in NY, or any other place for that matter, I'd be hard pressed to do the same with my kids. My wife was telling me how she is worried about leaving our little one at daycare. Is this what we've come to? I remember living in neighborhoods. Not just my apartment. Neighbors would keep watch on the neighborhood kids, and for the most part we behaved because of it.

Its just turned into a sick sick world ya'll. I'm with Ibraheim and the few that would be willing to risk their lives for the greater good. I think these are values that need to be reinstituted in our lives. Caring for one another and standing up for what's right. Sounds corny, and probably not as sexy as shooting up a liquor store and getting away in a fast car or whatnot, but it's what this society needs. It starts at home...


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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#251 » by johnnywishbone » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:16 am

Moose wrote:
johnnywishbone wrote:
Moose wrote:

If that were the case, monarchs would rule everywhere and the USA would not exist...I guess people should just give up and die if they live under tyranny.


Mr. Rip Van Winkle please wake up. I know this is going to be alarming but you are now in the 21st century. We no longer have to have armed insurrections to change the government. We have these vehicles called "elections" that allow us to change the government. And we have this other invention called the "Internet" that makes it impossible to prevent speech.

You are going to even believe this but even in the last century a lawyer in India threw out the British empire by going on a hunger strike! And all of Eastern Europe was liberated from Russia by people going out into the streets and protesting. So don't worry you don't need that musket anymore you are perfectly safe from the government without it.

And don't worry about the "monarchy" anymore. The Queen of England is perfectly harmless.



Lol....iran held an election, how did that go?...pretty sure the internet existed when that election took place as well...

I'm not saying it is likely, but when you get complacent, that is when bad things can happen...

It is one of the reasons 9/11 happened...we got too comfortable ....you are all young, I'm sure under 40, 30, maybe even under 25...you should be very much focused on preserving as many rights as you can...

Just don't get so comfortable that you allow yourselves to be run over.


Even if a terrible war occurred and we needed to protect ourselves from other soldiers of a foreign land ...things happen....even the unlikely needs to be thought of.


You know what "right" I'm most worried about? The right to send my kid to school or go see a movie or do anything in public without having to worry if some insane person went online and purchased an assault rifle. That's the right I'm worried about.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#252 » by rammagen » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:18 am

look let people keep semi auto pistols but the military hardware should go. Meaning assault rifles I am for gun control as a gun owner
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#253 » by Polk377 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:19 am

After reading through the comments here I had to hold back tears a few times. This is truly a tragic, senseless event that occurred today and my heart goes out to everyone effected by this. Anytime you hear a child's life has been taken in any circumstance is hard to comprehend.

On the matter of the 2nd amendment and guns, I feel there needs to be stricter policies in place to help prevent instances like this one. The majority of American civilians have no need for a semi-automatic weapon or hand gun at anytime. This is why we pay taxes for law enforcement people. I understand some people in this country still hunt for food and that is their right to do so. In that case certain rifles should be available to them but only after passing a screening and a gun safety and training course.

For those who believe that "its not the guns but the people who use them" I ask how do you distinguish between who the sane and insane are at sale? It is our nature as humans to react on emotion which sometimes makes the sane do insane things at times. You never know when this will happen and guns should not be accessible to take your frustrations out with. Yes, just because guns are not available does not mean people cant use knifes and such but tell me, would you stand a better chance against someone who would have to approach you face to face to stab you or a coward who can shoot you 50 yards away?
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#254 » by Bran Fast Hands » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:20 am

Moose wrote:
johnnywishbone wrote:
Moose wrote:

If that were the case, monarchs would rule everywhere and the USA would not exist...I guess people should just give up and die if they live under tyranny.


Mr. Rip Van Winkle please wake up. I know this is going to be alarming but you are now in the 21st century. We no longer have to have armed insurrections to change the government. We have these vehicles called "elections" that allow us to change the government. And we have this other invention called the "Internet" that makes it impossible to prevent speech.

You are going to even believe this but even in the last century a lawyer in India threw out the British empire by going on a hunger strike! And all of Eastern Europe was liberated from Russia by people going out into the streets and protesting. So don't worry you don't need that musket anymore you are perfectly safe from the government without it.

And don't worry about the "monarchy" anymore. The Queen of England is perfectly harmless.



Lol....iran held an election, how did that go?...pretty sure the internet existed when that election took place as well...

I'm not saying it is likely, but when you get complacent, that is when bad things can happen...

It is one of the reasons 9/11 happened...we got too comfortable ....you are all young, I'm sure under 40, 30, maybe even under 25...you should be very much focused on preserving as many rights as you can...

Just don't get so comfortable that you allow yourselves to be run over.


Even if a terrible war occurred and we needed to protect ourselves from other soldiers of a foreign land ...things happen....even the unlikely needs to be thought of.


Now I'm starting to wonder why we have one of the best democracies in the world here in NZ, since the average citizen doesn't have a gun or has no desire to own one I'm shocked the government hasn't sensed the opportunity to overpower us.

Half the problem is that there is no change in attitudes towards guns because you are passing down your attitude and stance to the generations below, so nothing is learnt and nothing changes. It's only going to get worse really.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#255 » by Moose » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:22 am

johnnywishbone wrote:
Moose wrote:
johnnywishbone wrote:
Mr. Rip Van Winkle please wake up. I know this is going to be alarming but you are now in the 21st century. We no longer have to have armed insurrections to change the government. We have these vehicles called "elections" that allow us to change the government. And we have this other invention called the "Internet" that makes it impossible to prevent speech.

You are going to even believe this but even in the last century a lawyer in India threw out the British empire by going on a hunger strike! And all of Eastern Europe was liberated from Russia by people going out into the streets and protesting. So don't worry you don't need that musket anymore you are perfectly safe from the government without it.

And don't worry about the "monarchy" anymore. The Queen of England is perfectly harmless.



Lol....iran held an election, how did that go?...pretty sure the internet existed when that election took place as well...

I'm not saying it is likely, but when you get complacent, that is when bad things can happen...

It is one of the reasons 9/11 happened...we got too comfortable ....you are all young, I'm sure under 40, 30, maybe even under 25...you should be very much focused on preserving as many rights as you can...

Just don't get so comfortable that you allow yourselves to be run over.


Even if a terrible war occurred and we needed to protect ourselves from other soldiers of a foreign land ...things happen....even the unlikely needs to be thought of.


You know what "right" I'm most worried about? The right to send my kid to school or go see a movie or do anything in public without having to worry if some insane person went online and purchased an assault rifle. That's the right I'm worried about.



That is different from what we are talking about...no one believes someone who is mentally ill should be buying a gun online....so I don't know why you are saying that.

I'm just talking about banning the second amendment...I actually read people wanting cops to search homes and the military going out on the streets in search for semi automatics...which are legal to have so they must also need to knock on doors.

These are very scary thought processes to have. People are willing to irrationally give up everything when it solves nothing...people with bad intentions can still get guns illegally....the same way they are doing now.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#256 » by johnnywishbone » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:32 am

Moose wrote:
I'm just talking about banning the second amendment...I actually read people wanting cops to search homes and the military going out on the streets in search for semi automatics...which are legal to have so they must also need to knock on doors.

These are very scary thought processes to have. People are willing to irrationally give up everything when it solves nothing...people with bad intentions can still get guns illegally....the same way they are doing now.


On this forum we've had this argument many times. I'm yet to see anyone who has suggested getting rid of the second amendment.

You seem to be the one who is equating an assault weapons ban with overturning the second amendment. And you are specifically suggesting that without these weapons we would be susceptible to a dictatorship.

If you are really worried about a dictatorship call your congressman and tell him to support legislation that would change the Constitution to make unlimited private donations to "Super Political Action Committees (Super PACs)" illegal. That would help society. Purchasing an assault rifle to protect your home from the future Fuhrer is just putting more money into Super PACs
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#257 » by HixNixKnicksTix » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:35 am

Linguistik wrote:Ok I'm not anti or pro-gun control, but let's just say this.

Let's say the shooter is a black guy, and he shoots up an all-black or all-Mexican school. An inner-city Black-Mexican school.

He goes out and kills a bunch of little Omars, Marlo Stanfields, and Stringer Bells.....now I wonder what the media would say. Yeah, not a peep.

But if it's White people getting killed left and right....then it's utter shock and disbelief, let's talk about gun control.



white people are, historically, the only kind that do this sort of mass murder. remember the d.c. sniper? huge shock it was a black guy. just like it would have been a huge shock if you heard about the philly train shooting yesterday and saw it was a white kid. there are tons of books on profiling criminals, getting inside their heads, like Anatomy of Motive, a book I read earlier this year. and consistenly...it is always white men who act like this guy in connecticut did today. only recently has the age range seemed to drop from the mid-thirties down to young 20s. i'd love to hear an explanation from fbi criminal profilers on why that's the current trend. might answer some questions we all have as to why these things happen
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#258 » by johnnywishbone » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:40 am

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I don't really buy the argument that society is in complete decay.

1) People are dramatically smarter than they were a century ago. An article in the NY Times stated that the average IQ a hundred years ago was 67. Which today would be considered mentally handicapped.

2) Look at the chart above. As discussed in the movie "Freakonomics" abortion has had a dramatic effect on reducing crime in this country.

3) Look at the President of the USA. That would have been unthinkable 50 years ago.

4) People are finally coming around about Gays and the Drug War.

Like everything else we need to evolve people's attitudes. Marijuana does not kill people. Assault weapons do. Legalize one and make the other illegal.

It's not rocket science.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#259 » by Moose » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:41 am

johnnywishbone wrote:
Moose wrote:
I'm just talking about banning the second amendment...I actually read people wanting cops to search homes and the military going out on the streets in search for semi automatics...which are legal to have so they must also need to knock on doors.

These are very scary thought processes to have. People are willing to irrationally give up everything when it solves nothing...people with bad intentions can still get guns illegally....the same way they are doing now.


On this forum we've had this argument many times. I'm yet to see anyone who has suggested getting rid of the second amendment.

You seem to be the one who is equating an assault weapons ban with overturning the second amendment. And you are specifically suggesting that without these weapons we would be susceptible to a dictatorship.

If you are really worried about a dictatorship call your congressman and tell him to support legislation that would change the Constitution to make unlimited private donations to "Super Political Action Committees (Super PACs)" illegal. That would help society. Purchasing an assault rifle to protect your home from the future Fuhrer is just putting more money into Super PACs



ibraheim718 and wingo have repeatedly said to ban all guns...and my arguments began with them.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#260 » by HixNixKnicksTix » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:45 am

[/quote]Semi-automatics are legal.. the only way to get rid of them is to go into people's homes and destroy them...and not sure how you destroy guns out on the street...do you go around asking gangs to give up their arms?...same with other criminals...it is impossible....banning the second amendmet will only end up hurting normal regular citizens.[/quote]

Guns don't last forever. without regular maintenance they're worthless. i just can't imagine kids with bandanas, face/neck tattoos, and posing with guns for twitter pics taking good care of anything.

what i'm saying is, make semi-autos illegal, within a decade the amount out in the streets will drop so much that the only people able to afford them will be gun collectors. gang members will be toting revolvers and shotguns.

i wish i had the time and patience to address everything Moose has spewed out recently... god i wish he were one of the Lanzas this morning.
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