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OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead CON

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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#261 » by johnnywishbone » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:49 am

Moose wrote:
ibraheim718 and wingo have repeatedly said to ban all guns...and my arguments began with them.


I wonder about that. In fact, there is a quote from Abe above where he states that he wants a gun. But even if it's true, my advice to gun owners is that you have to compromise here. Make the realistic arguments about home safety, the importance of hunting and just run from the assault weapons.

Saying that we need the second amendment to protect us from tyranny is just non-sensical. And it hurts the other more meaningful arguments by association.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#262 » by Moose » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:50 am

Hixnix,


You honestly believe guns will just disappear?...organized crime, and actually had guys who aren't just posing on twitter as you put it.

Still easy to get drugs. Was easy to get alcohol when that was banned according to the history we learned.


It won't solve the problem of random events like the one today occurring....they will sadly still occur.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#263 » by johnnywishbone » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:52 am

HixNixKnicksTix wrote:i wish i had the time and patience to address everything Moose has spewed out recently... god i wish he were one of the Lanzas this morning.


Don't wish that on anybody.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#264 » by ibraheim718 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:52 am

Moose wrote:

ibraheim718 and wingo have repeatedly said to ban all guns...and my arguments began with them.


Why lie Moose? I can't speak for Wingo.. but yes I would be in favor of a ban on all Semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Does that include all guns? No it doesn't and you know it doesn't so stop lying.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#265 » by Moose » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:55 am

johnnywishbone wrote:
Moose wrote:
ibraheim718 and wingo have repeatedly said to ban all guns...and my arguments began with them.


I wonder about that. In fact, there is a quote from Abe above where he states that he wants a gun. But even if it's true, my advice to gun owners is that you have to compromise here. Make the realistic arguments about home safety, the importance of hunting and just run from the assault weapons.

Saying that we need the second amendment to protect us from tyranny is just non-sensical. And it hurts the other more meaningful arguments by association.



It was one of the arguments I made along with others...people shouldn't take their country or freedoms for granted....and it is all a blur now, but ibraheim said he would let cops search his home and have the military roam the streets, so that may be why I started discussing this other issue...that is just not a good mindset to have in my opinion.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#266 » by Moose » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:56 am

ibraheim718 wrote:
Moose wrote:

ibraheim718 and wingo have repeatedly said to ban all guns...and my arguments began with them.


Why lie Moose? I can't speak for Wingo.. but yes I would be in favor of a ban on all Semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Does that include all guns? No it doesn't and you know it doesn't so stop lying.



I honestly thought you said that...if not...I apologize.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#267 » by johnnywishbone » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:57 am

Moose wrote:
Still easy to get drugs. Was easy to get alcohol when that was banned according to the history we learned.



Is it easy to get a bazooka? it's easy to get pot because anybody can go grow it in their closet. Manufacturing assault weapons is a little bit more complicated.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#268 » by HixNixKnicksTix » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:59 am

Moose wrote:Hixnix,


You honestly believe guns will just disappear?...organized crime, and actually had guys who aren't just posing on twitter as you put it.

Still easy to get drugs. Was easy to get alcohol when that was banned according to the history we learned.


It won't solve the problem of random events like the one today occurring....they will sadly still occur.



No they won't vanish. But the ones not being made and sold definitely won't exist.

it's easy to get drugs and it was easy to get alcohol. hillbillies made moonshine in the mountains, today they make meth in their kitchens. i doubt they can whittle .224 rifles and sell them by the truck load.

I agree. I've been saying throughout this thread that with ppl like the lanza kid today, nothing will stop them from harming others. but controlling guns/bullets will stop some (by some i mean a lot. a whole lot.) people from dying needlessly.

I do like talking, even with you..someone i dont totally agree with, about this. i'm glad the people earlier on in this thread who said it's too soon to engage in these conversations were pretty much told "well, then, gtfo"
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#269 » by ibraheim718 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:00 am

Moose wrote:
johnnywishbone wrote:
Moose wrote:
ibraheim718 and wingo have repeatedly said to ban all guns...and my arguments began with them.


I wonder about that. In fact, there is a quote from Abe above where he states that he wants a gun. But even if it's true, my advice to gun owners is that you have to compromise here. Make the realistic arguments about home safety, the importance of hunting and just run from the assault weapons.

Saying that we need the second amendment to protect us from tyranny is just non-sensical. And it hurts the other more meaningful arguments by association.



It was one of the arguments I made along with others...people shouldn't take their country or freedoms for granted....and it is all a blur now, but ibraheim said he would let cops search his home and have the military roam the streets, so that may be why I started discussing this other issue...that is just not a good mindset to have in my opinion.


In order for them to do the job and take these assault rifles and semi-automatic weapons off of the streets.. yes I would.

I even said that if the gun companies need to make more money than the money they've already made and if people really need to feel the need to "pack" they can make a universal six shot revolver for home protection.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#270 » by ibraheim718 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:06 am

I still haven't heard a response from Moose (and seriously Moose you know you have another account.. you only show up for these political debates) as to how to correct the problem and what he thinks is the reason that out of the 71 or so mass shootings since 1996 why 59 of them have taken place in the US?
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#271 » by HixNixKnicksTix » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:06 am

Moose,

Your bottom line, what do you see in all this? I'm really curious. Is it to just leave things the way they are? do you see any sort of changes that need to be made? I'm not asking for a paragraph of odd tangents, just a concise answer as to what should/can be done if anything.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#272 » by Moose » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:14 am

ibraheim718 wrote:I still haven't heard a response from Moose (and seriously Moose you know you have another account.. you only show up for these political debates) as to how to correct the problem and what he thinks is the reason that out of the 71 or so mass shootings since 1996 why 59 of them have taken place in the US?



Haha I don't have another account....and I'm a hardcore Knicks fan...I do more talking around trade deadline and offseason...not much to say now.


I havent thought much about solutions...stricter gun laws and perhaps more punishment if someone else uses your gun...to ensure people keep it away from others who should not have it...may be unfair, but having a gun, like driving a car, involves responsibility ...as you know, im for the 2nd amendment, but people need to still be responsible with their rights when they can effect others.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#273 » by gethigh » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:17 am

ibraheim718 wrote:I still haven't heard a response from Moose (and seriously Moose you know you have another account.. you only show up for these political debates) as to how to correct the problem and what he thinks is the reason that out of the 71 or so mass shootings since 1996 why 59 of them have taken place in the US?


Larger population, violent culture, less affordable health care/mental health screening?
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#274 » by Moose » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:23 am

HixNixKnicksTix wrote:Moose,

Your bottom line, what do you see in all this? I'm really curious. Is it to just leave things the way they are? do you see any sort of changes that need to be made? I'm not asking for a paragraph of odd tangents, just a concise answer as to what should/can be done if anything.


Gun sellers must be authorized and should be held accountable if they sell a gun to someone who should not have one...Gun owners need to be held accountable for their own guns...stolen guns can still be your fault if you did not take the proper steps to make sure it cannot be stolen.

I don't mind having basic psychological tests for gun owners every 6 years or so...

not to get personal...but I know a gun owner with dementia ...family took the guns out of the house...zero reason at this point he should have them...which is why many gun owners have documents signed so a legal gun owner can take his guns in such an event...however, if others didn't get involved, he would have those guns in the home still...not sure how you get around this issue if you live alone with no gun caretaker, or family or friends.

and if you dont re-register your guns, what happens?...not easy solutions wheb you think about the details...it just sounds nice
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#275 » by HixNixKnicksTix » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:41 am

Moose wrote:Gun sellers must be authorized and should be held accountable if they sell a gun to someone who should not have one...Gun owners need to be held accountable for their own guns...stolen guns can still be your fault if you did not take the proper steps to make sure it cannot be stolen.

I don't mind having basic psychological tests for gun owners every 6 years or so...

not to get personal...but I know a gun owner with dementia ...family took the guns out of the house...zero reason at this point he should have them...which is why many gun owners have documents signed so a legal gun owner can take his guns in such an event...however, if others didn't get involved, he would have those guns in the home still...not sure how you get around this issue if you live alone with no gun caretaker, or family or friends.

and if you dont re-register your guns, what happens?...not easy solutions wheb you think about the details...it just sounds nice


definitely all great ideas. and you're right...making registration/psych eval's strict will be tough to enforce strictly.

with that being said do you think people should be allowed to own semi-autos? if so should there be a limit on how many guns one owns or how many guns are permitted in one residence? how many bullets should each magazine hold at max?

because youre also right in that people will get their hands on guns. but what if they can't get their hands on a semi-automatic handgun let alone multiple semi-automatic handguns? or is it everyone's right, since the dawn of this great nation and the creation of the 2nd amendment (which is yet to be amended btw), to own a .224 rifle?
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#276 » by KNIXFAN_83 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:57 am

This has to be like the most tragic chit I have ever seen. Who deliberately kills children? #lordhearourprayer
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#277 » by Knicker23 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:07 am

I don't buy the whole "background check" "psych exam" thing as a realistic way to stop this type of stuff from happening. People can become deranged at the flip of a switch. The idea that some little test, criminal record or having to wait 30 days will deter a psycho path from shooting up a theater or children is laughable. Humans are complex creatures, no test can give any worthy indication of what one may be capable of as far as i'm concerned....Let alone the fact that thats beside the point when your mom has guns in the house regardless....

The news can talk about the "signs of distress" "where he went wrong" "how it could have been mentally diagnosed" etc but I think that leading to any real change is slim. We can talk about the importance of family, morals, parents etc- everyone knows how that impacts a kid and the lack thereof. But I don't see that stopping most of the freaks out there if they do reach a certain point, and if guns remain as easily accessible as they are.

All the pro gun people love to follow that by saying "we should get rid of cars too then!" or "a man stabbed 22 children in China today, should we ban kitchen knifes?" -- interesting.. How many people died in that stabbing in China? (zero)... Do you think it's more realistic to limit the accessibility of guns or arm teachers, and every joe shmo on the street with a pistol to combat mass murder crazy people like this? Answer seems obvious.

And no, setting up extra security in elementary school, medal detectors, buzz-ins.. basically making it a prison, isn't the answer either. Because it's bigger than just school grounds. It's bigger than any one grounds, be it a mall, church, school, bank, project or w/e... The idea that it can be solved by putting a security guard here, or medal detectors there is silly. It requires a change in mindset, and it requires a change in the ease of anyone getting a gun.... Fact of the matter is, if some switch flipped in you and you wanted to shoot your school up, most would likely be able to go through the legal measures to get a weapon to do so.. all these "after the fact" measures like giving teachers guns or security guards is nice in theory, but not in reality. Some 1st grade teacher with a gun locked away in the back closet isn't going to do anything to stop this 10 second span thing from occurring...... And would probably lead to more damage than good.

There were more children killed today than in the Oklahoma City bombing -thats pretty insane to think about. Historically awful day that'll hopefully go down in infamy and be the catalyst for real change.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#278 » by ibraheim718 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:09 am

Moose wrote:
ibraheim718 wrote:I still haven't heard a response from Moose (and seriously Moose you know you have another account.. you only show up for these political debates) as to how to correct the problem and what he thinks is the reason that out of the 71 or so mass shootings since 1996 why 59 of them have taken place in the US?



Haha I don't have another account....and I'm a hardcore Knicks fan...I do more talking around trade deadline and offseason...not much to say now.


I havent thought much about solutions...stricter gun laws and perhaps more punishment if someone else uses your gun...to ensure people keep it away from others who should not have it...may be unfair, but having a gun, like driving a car, involves responsibility ...as you know, im for the 2nd amendment, but people need to still be responsible with their rights when they can effect others.


I'm sorry moose but what you're proposing isn't enough to stop this trend.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#279 » by JoseChinga » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:45 am

Knicker23 wrote:People can become deranged at the flip of a switch.


That's 100% bull and you don't know that.

Do some research on interpersonal neurobiology.
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Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead C 

Post#280 » by nykinoz » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:49 am

Thoughts are with the parents and families of those lost in this massacre. As a parent of 2 young children myself, my heart hurts just reading the news clips. :(
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