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OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead CON

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Post#256 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:32 pm by johnnywishbone

Moose wrote:
I'm just talking about banning the second amendment...I actually read people wanting cops to search homes and the military going out on the streets in search for semi automatics...which are legal to have so they must also need to knock on doors.

These are very scary thought processes to have. People are willing to irrationally give up everything when it solves nothing...people with bad intentions can still get guns illegally....the same way they are doing now.


On this forum we've had this argument many times. I'm yet to see anyone who has suggested getting rid of the second amendment.

You seem to be the one who is equating an assault weapons ban with overturning the second amendment. And you are specifically suggesting that without these weapons we would be susceptible to a dictatorship.

If you are really worried about a dictatorship call your congressman and tell him to support legislation that would change the Constitution to make unlimited private donations to "Super Political Action Committees (Super PACs)" illegal. That would help society. Purchasing an assault rifle to protect your home from the future Fuhrer is just putting more money into Super PACs
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Post#257 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:35 pm by HixNixKnicksTix

Linguistik wrote:Ok I'm not anti or pro-gun control, but let's just say this.

Let's say the shooter is a black guy, and he shoots up an all-black or all-Mexican school. An inner-city Black-Mexican school.

He goes out and kills a bunch of little Omars, Marlo Stanfields, and Stringer Bells.....now I wonder what the media would say. Yeah, not a peep.

But if it's White people getting killed left and right....then it's utter shock and disbelief, let's talk about gun control.



white people are, historically, the only kind that do this sort of mass murder. remember the d.c. sniper? huge shock it was a black guy. just like it would have been a huge shock if you heard about the philly train shooting yesterday and saw it was a white kid. there are tons of books on profiling criminals, getting inside their heads, like Anatomy of Motive, a book I read earlier this year. and consistenly...it is always white men who act like this guy in connecticut did today. only recently has the age range seemed to drop from the mid-thirties down to young 20s. i'd love to hear an explanation from fbi criminal profilers on why that's the current trend. might answer some questions we all have as to why these things happen
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Post#258 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:40 pm by johnnywishbone

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I don't really buy the argument that society is in complete decay.

1) People are dramatically smarter than they were a century ago. An article in the NY Times stated that the average IQ a hundred years ago was 67. Which today would be considered mentally handicapped.

2) Look at the chart above. As discussed in the movie "Freakonomics" abortion has had a dramatic effect on reducing crime in this country.

3) Look at the President of the USA. That would have been unthinkable 50 years ago.

4) People are finally coming around about Gays and the Drug War.

Like everything else we need to evolve people's attitudes. Marijuana does not kill people. Assault weapons do. Legalize one and make the other illegal.

It's not rocket science.
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Post#259 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:41 pm by Moose

johnnywishbone wrote:
Moose wrote:
I'm just talking about banning the second amendment...I actually read people wanting cops to search homes and the military going out on the streets in search for semi automatics...which are legal to have so they must also need to knock on doors.

These are very scary thought processes to have. People are willing to irrationally give up everything when it solves nothing...people with bad intentions can still get guns illegally....the same way they are doing now.


On this forum we've had this argument many times. I'm yet to see anyone who has suggested getting rid of the second amendment.

You seem to be the one who is equating an assault weapons ban with overturning the second amendment. And you are specifically suggesting that without these weapons we would be susceptible to a dictatorship.

If you are really worried about a dictatorship call your congressman and tell him to support legislation that would change the Constitution to make unlimited private donations to "Super Political Action Committees (Super PACs)" illegal. That would help society. Purchasing an assault rifle to protect your home from the future Fuhrer is just putting more money into Super PACs



ibraheim718 and wingo have repeatedly said to ban all guns...and my arguments began with them.
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Post#260 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:45 pm by HixNixKnicksTix

[/quote]Semi-automatics are legal.. the only way to get rid of them is to go into people's homes and destroy them...and not sure how you destroy guns out on the street...do you go around asking gangs to give up their arms?...same with other criminals...it is impossible....banning the second amendmet will only end up hurting normal regular citizens.[/quote]

Guns don't last forever. without regular maintenance they're worthless. i just can't imagine kids with bandanas, face/neck tattoos, and posing with guns for twitter pics taking good care of anything.

what i'm saying is, make semi-autos illegal, within a decade the amount out in the streets will drop so much that the only people able to afford them will be gun collectors. gang members will be toting revolvers and shotguns.

i wish i had the time and patience to address everything Moose has spewed out recently... god i wish he were one of the Lanzas this morning.
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Post#261 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:49 pm by johnnywishbone

Moose wrote:
ibraheim718 and wingo have repeatedly said to ban all guns...and my arguments began with them.


I wonder about that. In fact, there is a quote from Abe above where he states that he wants a gun. But even if it's true, my advice to gun owners is that you have to compromise here. Make the realistic arguments about home safety, the importance of hunting and just run from the assault weapons.

Saying that we need the second amendment to protect us from tyranny is just non-sensical. And it hurts the other more meaningful arguments by association.
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Post#262 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:50 pm by Moose

Hixnix,


You honestly believe guns will just disappear?...organized crime, and actually had guys who aren't just posing on twitter as you put it.

Still easy to get drugs. Was easy to get alcohol when that was banned according to the history we learned.


It won't solve the problem of random events like the one today occurring....they will sadly still occur.
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Post#263 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:52 pm by johnnywishbone

HixNixKnicksTix wrote:i wish i had the time and patience to address everything Moose has spewed out recently... god i wish he were one of the Lanzas this morning.


Don't wish that on anybody.
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Post#264 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:52 pm by ibraheim718

Moose wrote:

ibraheim718 and wingo have repeatedly said to ban all guns...and my arguments began with them.


Why lie Moose? I can't speak for Wingo.. but yes I would be in favor of a ban on all Semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Does that include all guns? No it doesn't and you know it doesn't so stop lying.
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Post#265 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:55 pm by Moose

johnnywishbone wrote:
Moose wrote:
ibraheim718 and wingo have repeatedly said to ban all guns...and my arguments began with them.


I wonder about that. In fact, there is a quote from Abe above where he states that he wants a gun. But even if it's true, my advice to gun owners is that you have to compromise here. Make the realistic arguments about home safety, the importance of hunting and just run from the assault weapons.

Saying that we need the second amendment to protect us from tyranny is just non-sensical. And it hurts the other more meaningful arguments by association.



It was one of the arguments I made along with others...people shouldn't take their country or freedoms for granted....and it is all a blur now, but ibraheim said he would let cops search his home and have the military roam the streets, so that may be why I started discussing this other issue...that is just not a good mindset to have in my opinion.
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Post#266 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:56 pm by Moose

ibraheim718 wrote:
Moose wrote:

ibraheim718 and wingo have repeatedly said to ban all guns...and my arguments began with them.


Why lie Moose? I can't speak for Wingo.. but yes I would be in favor of a ban on all Semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Does that include all guns? No it doesn't and you know it doesn't so stop lying.



I honestly thought you said that...if not...I apologize.
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Post#267 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:57 pm by johnnywishbone

Moose wrote:
Still easy to get drugs. Was easy to get alcohol when that was banned according to the history we learned.



Is it easy to get a bazooka? it's easy to get pot because anybody can go grow it in their closet. Manufacturing assault weapons is a little bit more complicated.
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Post#268 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:59 pm by HixNixKnicksTix

Moose wrote:Hixnix,


You honestly believe guns will just disappear?...organized crime, and actually had guys who aren't just posing on twitter as you put it.

Still easy to get drugs. Was easy to get alcohol when that was banned according to the history we learned.


It won't solve the problem of random events like the one today occurring....they will sadly still occur.



No they won't vanish. But the ones not being made and sold definitely won't exist.

it's easy to get drugs and it was easy to get alcohol. hillbillies made moonshine in the mountains, today they make meth in their kitchens. i doubt they can whittle .224 rifles and sell them by the truck load.

I agree. I've been saying throughout this thread that with ppl like the lanza kid today, nothing will stop them from harming others. but controlling guns/bullets will stop some (by some i mean a lot. a whole lot.) people from dying needlessly.

I do like talking, even with you..someone i dont totally agree with, about this. i'm glad the people earlier on in this thread who said it's too soon to engage in these conversations were pretty much told "well, then, gtfo"
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Post#269 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:00 pm by ibraheim718

Moose wrote:
johnnywishbone wrote:
Moose wrote:
ibraheim718 and wingo have repeatedly said to ban all guns...and my arguments began with them.


I wonder about that. In fact, there is a quote from Abe above where he states that he wants a gun. But even if it's true, my advice to gun owners is that you have to compromise here. Make the realistic arguments about home safety, the importance of hunting and just run from the assault weapons.

Saying that we need the second amendment to protect us from tyranny is just non-sensical. And it hurts the other more meaningful arguments by association.



It was one of the arguments I made along with others...people shouldn't take their country or freedoms for granted....and it is all a blur now, but ibraheim said he would let cops search his home and have the military roam the streets, so that may be why I started discussing this other issue...that is just not a good mindset to have in my opinion.


In order for them to do the job and take these assault rifles and semi-automatic weapons off of the streets.. yes I would.

I even said that if the gun companies need to make more money than the money they've already made and if people really need to feel the need to "pack" they can make a universal six shot revolver for home protection.
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Post#270 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:06 pm by ibraheim718

I still haven't heard a response from Moose (and seriously Moose you know you have another account.. you only show up for these political debates) as to how to correct the problem and what he thinks is the reason that out of the 71 or so mass shootings since 1996 why 59 of them have taken place in the US?
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Post#271 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:06 pm by HixNixKnicksTix

Moose,

Your bottom line, what do you see in all this? I'm really curious. Is it to just leave things the way they are? do you see any sort of changes that need to be made? I'm not asking for a paragraph of odd tangents, just a concise answer as to what should/can be done if anything.
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Post#272 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:14 pm by Moose

ibraheim718 wrote:I still haven't heard a response from Moose (and seriously Moose you know you have another account.. you only show up for these political debates) as to how to correct the problem and what he thinks is the reason that out of the 71 or so mass shootings since 1996 why 59 of them have taken place in the US?



Haha I don't have another account....and I'm a hardcore Knicks fan...I do more talking around trade deadline and offseason...not much to say now.


I havent thought much about solutions...stricter gun laws and perhaps more punishment if someone else uses your gun...to ensure people keep it away from others who should not have it...may be unfair, but having a gun, like driving a car, involves responsibility ...as you know, im for the 2nd amendment, but people need to still be responsible with their rights when they can effect others.
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Post#273 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:17 pm by gethigh

ibraheim718 wrote:I still haven't heard a response from Moose (and seriously Moose you know you have another account.. you only show up for these political debates) as to how to correct the problem and what he thinks is the reason that out of the 71 or so mass shootings since 1996 why 59 of them have taken place in the US?


Larger population, violent culture, less affordable health care/mental health screening?
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Post#274 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:23 pm by Moose

HixNixKnicksTix wrote:Moose,

Your bottom line, what do you see in all this? I'm really curious. Is it to just leave things the way they are? do you see any sort of changes that need to be made? I'm not asking for a paragraph of odd tangents, just a concise answer as to what should/can be done if anything.


Gun sellers must be authorized and should be held accountable if they sell a gun to someone who should not have one...Gun owners need to be held accountable for their own guns...stolen guns can still be your fault if you did not take the proper steps to make sure it cannot be stolen.

I don't mind having basic psychological tests for gun owners every 6 years or so...

not to get personal...but I know a gun owner with dementia ...family took the guns out of the house...zero reason at this point he should have them...which is why many gun owners have documents signed so a legal gun owner can take his guns in such an event...however, if others didn't get involved, he would have those guns in the home still...not sure how you get around this issue if you live alone with no gun caretaker, or family or friends.

and if you dont re-register your guns, what happens?...not easy solutions wheb you think about the details...it just sounds nice
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Post#275 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:41 pm by HixNixKnicksTix

Moose wrote:Gun sellers must be authorized and should be held accountable if they sell a gun to someone who should not have one...Gun owners need to be held accountable for their own guns...stolen guns can still be your fault if you did not take the proper steps to make sure it cannot be stolen.

I don't mind having basic psychological tests for gun owners every 6 years or so...

not to get personal...but I know a gun owner with dementia ...family took the guns out of the house...zero reason at this point he should have them...which is why many gun owners have documents signed so a legal gun owner can take his guns in such an event...however, if others didn't get involved, he would have those guns in the home still...not sure how you get around this issue if you live alone with no gun caretaker, or family or friends.

and if you dont re-register your guns, what happens?...not easy solutions wheb you think about the details...it just sounds nice


definitely all great ideas. and you're right...making registration/psych eval's strict will be tough to enforce strictly.

with that being said do you think people should be allowed to own semi-autos? if so should there be a limit on how many guns one owns or how many guns are permitted in one residence? how many bullets should each magazine hold at max?

because youre also right in that people will get their hands on guns. but what if they can't get their hands on a semi-automatic handgun let alone multiple semi-automatic handguns? or is it everyone's right, since the dawn of this great nation and the creation of the 2nd amendment (which is yet to be amended btw), to own a .224 rifle?
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