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OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead CON

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Post#271 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:06 pm by HixNixKnicksTix

Moose,

Your bottom line, what do you see in all this? I'm really curious. Is it to just leave things the way they are? do you see any sort of changes that need to be made? I'm not asking for a paragraph of odd tangents, just a concise answer as to what should/can be done if anything.
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Post#272 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:14 pm by Moose

ibraheim718 wrote:I still haven't heard a response from Moose (and seriously Moose you know you have another account.. you only show up for these political debates) as to how to correct the problem and what he thinks is the reason that out of the 71 or so mass shootings since 1996 why 59 of them have taken place in the US?



Haha I don't have another account....and I'm a hardcore Knicks fan...I do more talking around trade deadline and offseason...not much to say now.


I havent thought much about solutions...stricter gun laws and perhaps more punishment if someone else uses your gun...to ensure people keep it away from others who should not have it...may be unfair, but having a gun, like driving a car, involves responsibility ...as you know, im for the 2nd amendment, but people need to still be responsible with their rights when they can effect others.
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Post#273 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:17 pm by gethigh

ibraheim718 wrote:I still haven't heard a response from Moose (and seriously Moose you know you have another account.. you only show up for these political debates) as to how to correct the problem and what he thinks is the reason that out of the 71 or so mass shootings since 1996 why 59 of them have taken place in the US?


Larger population, violent culture, less affordable health care/mental health screening?
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Post#274 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:23 pm by Moose

HixNixKnicksTix wrote:Moose,

Your bottom line, what do you see in all this? I'm really curious. Is it to just leave things the way they are? do you see any sort of changes that need to be made? I'm not asking for a paragraph of odd tangents, just a concise answer as to what should/can be done if anything.


Gun sellers must be authorized and should be held accountable if they sell a gun to someone who should not have one...Gun owners need to be held accountable for their own guns...stolen guns can still be your fault if you did not take the proper steps to make sure it cannot be stolen.

I don't mind having basic psychological tests for gun owners every 6 years or so...

not to get personal...but I know a gun owner with dementia ...family took the guns out of the house...zero reason at this point he should have them...which is why many gun owners have documents signed so a legal gun owner can take his guns in such an event...however, if others didn't get involved, he would have those guns in the home still...not sure how you get around this issue if you live alone with no gun caretaker, or family or friends.

and if you dont re-register your guns, what happens?...not easy solutions wheb you think about the details...it just sounds nice
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Post#275 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:41 pm by HixNixKnicksTix

Moose wrote:Gun sellers must be authorized and should be held accountable if they sell a gun to someone who should not have one...Gun owners need to be held accountable for their own guns...stolen guns can still be your fault if you did not take the proper steps to make sure it cannot be stolen.

I don't mind having basic psychological tests for gun owners every 6 years or so...

not to get personal...but I know a gun owner with dementia ...family took the guns out of the house...zero reason at this point he should have them...which is why many gun owners have documents signed so a legal gun owner can take his guns in such an event...however, if others didn't get involved, he would have those guns in the home still...not sure how you get around this issue if you live alone with no gun caretaker, or family or friends.

and if you dont re-register your guns, what happens?...not easy solutions wheb you think about the details...it just sounds nice


definitely all great ideas. and you're right...making registration/psych eval's strict will be tough to enforce strictly.

with that being said do you think people should be allowed to own semi-autos? if so should there be a limit on how many guns one owns or how many guns are permitted in one residence? how many bullets should each magazine hold at max?

because youre also right in that people will get their hands on guns. but what if they can't get their hands on a semi-automatic handgun let alone multiple semi-automatic handguns? or is it everyone's right, since the dawn of this great nation and the creation of the 2nd amendment (which is yet to be amended btw), to own a .224 rifle?
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Post#276 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:57 pm by KNIXFAN_83

This has to be like the most tragic chit I have ever seen. Who deliberately kills children? #lordhearourprayer
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Post#277 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:07 pm by Knicker23

I don't buy the whole "background check" "psych exam" thing as a realistic way to stop this type of stuff from happening. People can become deranged at the flip of a switch. The idea that some little test, criminal record or having to wait 30 days will deter a psycho path from shooting up a theater or children is laughable. Humans are complex creatures, no test can give any worthy indication of what one may be capable of as far as i'm concerned....Let alone the fact that thats beside the point when your mom has guns in the house regardless....

The news can talk about the "signs of distress" "where he went wrong" "how it could have been mentally diagnosed" etc but I think that leading to any real change is slim. We can talk about the importance of family, morals, parents etc- everyone knows how that impacts a kid and the lack thereof. But I don't see that stopping most of the freaks out there if they do reach a certain point, and if guns remain as easily accessible as they are.

All the pro gun people love to follow that by saying "we should get rid of cars too then!" or "a man stabbed 22 children in China today, should we ban kitchen knifes?" -- interesting.. How many people died in that stabbing in China? (zero)... Do you think it's more realistic to limit the accessibility of guns or arm teachers, and every joe shmo on the street with a pistol to combat mass murder crazy people like this? Answer seems obvious.

And no, setting up extra security in elementary school, medal detectors, buzz-ins.. basically making it a prison, isn't the answer either. Because it's bigger than just school grounds. It's bigger than any one grounds, be it a mall, church, school, bank, project or w/e... The idea that it can be solved by putting a security guard here, or medal detectors there is silly. It requires a change in mindset, and it requires a change in the ease of anyone getting a gun.... Fact of the matter is, if some switch flipped in you and you wanted to shoot your school up, most would likely be able to go through the legal measures to get a weapon to do so.. all these "after the fact" measures like giving teachers guns or security guards is nice in theory, but not in reality. Some 1st grade teacher with a gun locked away in the back closet isn't going to do anything to stop this 10 second span thing from occurring...... And would probably lead to more damage than good.

There were more children killed today than in the Oklahoma City bombing -thats pretty insane to think about. Historically awful day that'll hopefully go down in infamy and be the catalyst for real change.
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Post#278 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:09 pm by ibraheim718

Moose wrote:
ibraheim718 wrote:I still haven't heard a response from Moose (and seriously Moose you know you have another account.. you only show up for these political debates) as to how to correct the problem and what he thinks is the reason that out of the 71 or so mass shootings since 1996 why 59 of them have taken place in the US?



Haha I don't have another account....and I'm a hardcore Knicks fan...I do more talking around trade deadline and offseason...not much to say now.


I havent thought much about solutions...stricter gun laws and perhaps more punishment if someone else uses your gun...to ensure people keep it away from others who should not have it...may be unfair, but having a gun, like driving a car, involves responsibility ...as you know, im for the 2nd amendment, but people need to still be responsible with their rights when they can effect others.


I'm sorry moose but what you're proposing isn't enough to stop this trend.
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Post#279 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:45 pm by JoseChinga

Knicker23 wrote:People can become deranged at the flip of a switch.


That's 100% bull and you don't know that.

Do some research on interpersonal neurobiology.
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Post#280 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:49 pm by nykinoz

Thoughts are with the parents and families of those lost in this massacre. As a parent of 2 young children myself, my heart hurts just reading the news clips. :(
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Post#281 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:55 pm by BRIGGS

No one needs to own more than 1 basic gun for home self defense purposes and the gun should be monitored by computer(reg current ownership amount of ammunition etc) and have to be checked in1 nce a year to proper authorities. I dont want to hear about a man in china--if this kid did not have access to these weapons or atleast the situation wouldnt be this extreme. 2 say guns are not a major problrm in this stuff is an excuse. If I had my druthers no one would have a gun
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Post#282 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:07 am by NYKMELO7

this is such a tragedy, so sad
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Post#283 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:20 am by KNIXFAN_83

Yo chill with the arguing. Just agree to disagree right now.
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Post#284 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:39 am by NYKinMIA

Rasho Brezec wrote:How can anyone seriously compare gun regulation to war on drugs or alcohol prohibition? Two of those things hurt only the individual using them and the other one kills everyone around.

I think your not accounting for the victims of drunk driving, and alcohol and drug related violence as a whole...which is ENORMOUS.

I'd like to first say that I own several firearms...judge me if you will. However, I agree that some of the gun laws in this country are a joke. The whole "gun show loophole" dilemma is incredibly disturbing, and quite frankly sickening. I don't consider myself a "gun nut" by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't believe that my freedom is under attack, or ever might be. What I do know is, that if turning in my weapons could prevent these tragedies...then you can take them all in a heartbeat.
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Post#285 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:43 am by BOOMbip

I did a little bit of research and if the data is accurate it appears that there are roughly the same number of registered vehicles, all types at about 250 million, on the roads in the US as there are estimated guns of all types at over 230 million in the US. The research also yielded that roughly the same amount of people die from gunshots as they do from drunk driving accidents, both just over 10,000 as of 2010, which was the latest data I could find on both.

So I have concluded that since both are the result of negligent use of those items they both need to be completely eliminated from our country and we could save over 20,000 lives a year with many of them being children. Since some people can't use them responsibly they need to be removed completely and anyone who disagrees just doesn't care about the children.

Think on that folks.... as I will be searching on craigslist for a horse now...
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Post#286 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:03 am by Little Italia

BOOMbip wrote:I did a little bit of research and if the data is accurate it appears that there are roughly the same number of registered vehicles, all types at about 250 million, on the roads in the US as there are estimated guns of all types at over 230 million in the US. The research also yielded that roughly the same amount of people die from gunshots as they do from drunk driving accidents, both just over 10,000 as of 2010, which was the latest data I could find on both.

So I have concluded that since both are the result of negligent use of those items they both need to be completely eliminated from our country and we could save over 20,000 lives a year with many of them being children. Since some people can't use them responsibly they need to be removed completely and anyone who disagrees just doesn't care about the children.

Think on that folks.... as I will be searching on craigslist for a horse now...


Let's ban them both! Though most say "hey they got rid of all the guns!! Let's celebrate!!"

8 hours later they are drunk and decide to drive home, only to crash into a caravan carrying 6 children coming back home from the amusement park.
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Post#287 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:31 am by Capn'O

What a brutally tragic event. My heart just aches for the families of these children. It's unimaginable.

There's a lot I could say politically but socially, I just ask that we don't make another folk hero of the killer. Keep the event fresh but keep his face off newspaper and magazine covers. Remove his likeness from the news.

I remember the names and faces of the previous killers in mass murders much better than the victims. Their likenesses are everywhere. On every article. That creeper from Aurora... his face sits fresh in my mind. The journalist killed in that attack was really the only counter. One of the few victims we actually remember going forward because her story had recently coincided with another attack.

Once the dust settles I hope the media digs their heels in... not so much on this tragedy and its perpetrator but uncovering the hurt that is ongoing from previous ones. Life isn't a video game and the effect of these things linger for years for those who have lost.
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Post#288 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:35 am by ibraheim718

BOOMbip wrote:I did a little bit of research and if the data is accurate it appears that there are roughly the same number of registered vehicles, all types at about 250 million, on the roads in the US as there are estimated guns of all types at over 230 million in the US. The research also yielded that roughly the same amount of people die from gunshots as they do from drunk driving accidents, both just over 10,000 as of 2010, which was the latest data I could find on both.

So I have concluded that since both are the result of negligent use of those items they both need to be completely eliminated from our country and we could save over 20,000 lives a year with many of them being children. Since some people can't use them responsibly they need to be removed completely and anyone who disagrees just doesn't care about the children.

Think on that folks.... as I will be searching on craigslist for a horse now...


This is just bad all the way around man...

You realize that almost all of those drunk driving deaths are accidental? Drunk or not they're accidental.. they're not premeditated. They don't intend on killing people when they get behind the wheel drunk.. right? I can speak from personal experience because I live in New Mexico which used to have a huge drunk driving death rate but have dramatically dropped because of the harsher laws put into place and the drunk driving blitz' across the state that disuade more and more people each year from driving drunk.

Further, you conveniently leave out one HUGE fact.. that drunk driving deaths are down 50% since 1982 and have been on a steady decline. And what I'm reading is showing that over 30,000 people die from gunshots each year... nothing near the 10,000 that died by gunshot that your referencing.
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Post#289 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:59 am by Moose

HixNixKnicksTix wrote:
Moose wrote:Gun sellers must be authorized and should be held accountable if they sell a gun to someone who should not have one...Gun owners need to be held accountable for their own guns...stolen guns can still be your fault if you did not take the proper steps to make sure it cannot be stolen.

I don't mind having basic psychological tests for gun owners every 6 years or so...

not to get personal...but I know a gun owner with dementia ...family took the guns out of the house...zero reason at this point he should have them...which is why many gun owners have documents signed so a legal gun owner can take his guns in such an event...however, if others didn't get involved, he would have those guns in the home still...not sure how you get around this issue if you live alone with no gun caretaker, or family or friends.

and if you dont re-register your guns, what happens?...not easy solutions wheb you think about the details...it just sounds nice


definitely all great ideas. and you're right...making registration/psych eval's strict will be tough to enforce strictly.

with that being said do you think people should be allowed to own semi-autos? if so should there be a limit on how many guns one owns or how many guns are permitted in one residence? how many bullets should each magazine hold at max?

because youre also right in that people will get their hands on guns. but what if they can't get their hands on a semi-automatic handgun let alone multiple semi-automatic handguns? or is it everyone's right, since the dawn of this great nation and the creation of the 2nd amendment (which is yet to be amended btw), to own a .224 rifle?


HixNixKnicksTix wrote:
Moose wrote:Gun sellers must be authorized and should be held accountable if they sell a gun to someone who should not have one...Gun owners need to be held accountable for their own guns...stolen guns can still be your fault if you did not take the proper steps to make sure it cannot be stolen.

I don't mind having basic psychological tests for gun owners every 6 years or so...

not to get personal...but I know a gun owner with dementia ...family took the guns out of the house...zero reason at this point he should have them...which is why many gun owners have documents signed so a legal gun owner can take his guns in such an event...however, if others didn't get involved, he would have those guns in the home still...not sure how you get around this issue if you live alone with no gun caretaker, or family or friends.

and if you dont re-register your guns, what happens?...not easy solutions wheb you think about the details...it just sounds nice


definitely all great ideas. and you're right...making registration/psych eval's strict will be tough to enforce strictly.

with that being said do you think people should be allowed to own semi-autos? if so should there be a limit on how many guns one owns or how many guns are permitted in one residence? how many bullets should each magazine hold at max?

because youre also right in that people will get their hands on guns. but what if they can't get their hands on a semi-automatic handgun let alone multiple semi-automatic handguns? or is it everyone's right, since the dawn of this great nation and the creation of the 2nd amendment (which is yet to be amended btw), to own a .224 rifle?



Well, most guns are now semi-automatic, no? Pistols, rifles, and even shotguns. Semi-automatic basically just means a gun that automatically reloads. I think I'm fine with the idea of people having semi-automatic pistols.

Automatics and guns of even more lethal strength are outlawed and will stay that way. They have basically drawn this line between private rights and protection and safety, and public safety.

Which is why the debate over carrying a handgun in public is discussed often.

There is no perfect answer. I think a semi pistol is fine. But now you also get into hunters who use rifles and shotguns for hunting. Semis make it a lot easier for them...especially if they hunt for actual food.


There are a lot of collectors. And as silly as it sounds to some, people really like guns. The look, the feel, the power, the style, craft, and art that goes into making a gun. The science. Even on a popular show like Pawn Stars, they always talk about how much they love guns.

I dont own a gun, and probably never will...But I did pull the trigger on a shotgun for a few...it was fun. I recommend others to try it. Obviously supervised in a safe and controlled environment. The intention behind the gun is usually the problem.

Accidents and horrific things do happen with guns, but I believe, after evaluating many alternate scenarios and situations...both past, present, and future...that it makes more sense to keep the second amendment intact (how we do gun control is a different topic). Some to want to ban it completely. I feel like this is a mistake. Others disagree.

People were saying, 'how many more acts like this does it take?' Freedom is a double-edge sword. I know some have scoffed at the notion, but you can say the same about abortions with people that act like it is a form of contraception, and even freedom of speech. Plenty of horrible things are said, even some leading to violence...some of it is just wrong, but you don't take it away. You deal with the good and the bad. You try to educate, and control what you are allowed to control, and work towards the most ideal situation.


I think we all got emotional because of what was going on today. Emotional and quick decisions don't work out a lot in politics, and therefore, they dont work out for us. Bad, dangerous, or sloppy laws are made based on certain events, or even ideology. I am sure a lot of people here aren't fans of the Patriot Act.
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Post#290 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:07 am by Little Italia

ibraheim718 wrote:
BOOMbip wrote:I did a little bit of research and if the data is accurate it appears that there are roughly the same number of registered vehicles, all types at about 250 million, on the roads in the US as there are estimated guns of all types at over 230 million in the US. The research also yielded that roughly the same amount of people die from gunshots as they do from drunk driving accidents, both just over 10,000 as of 2010, which was the latest data I could find on both.

So I have concluded that since both are the result of negligent use of those items they both need to be completely eliminated from our country and we could save over 20,000 lives a year with many of them being children. Since some people can't use them responsibly they need to be removed completely and anyone who disagrees just doesn't care about the children.

Think on that folks.... as I will be searching on craigslist for a horse now...


This is just bad all the way around man...

You realize that almost all of those drunk driving deaths are accidental? Drunk or not they're accidental.. they're not premeditated. They don't intend on killing people when they get behind the wheel drunk.. right? I can speak from personal experience because I live in New Mexico which used to have a huge drunk driving death rate but have dramatically dropped because of the harsher laws put into place and the drunk driving blitz' across the state that disuade more and more people each year from driving drunk.

Further, you conveniently leave out one HUGE fact.. that drunk driving deaths are down 50% since 1982 and have been on a steady decline. And what I'm reading is showing that over 30,000 people die from gunshots each year... nothing near the 10,000 that died by gunshot that your referencing.


Most people when they drink intend on getting hammered. So they know well in hand the danger they put others in and themselves when they get into a car. That sounds premeditated to me.

A drunk driver gets charged with vehicular manslaughter and a man who kills a burglar in his home is charged with manslaughter. If killing a burglar is premeditated, than so so should a drunk driver who took the keys and drove reckless.
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