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OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school students shot dead CON

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Post#286 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:03 am by Little Italia

BOOMbip wrote:I did a little bit of research and if the data is accurate it appears that there are roughly the same number of registered vehicles, all types at about 250 million, on the roads in the US as there are estimated guns of all types at over 230 million in the US. The research also yielded that roughly the same amount of people die from gunshots as they do from drunk driving accidents, both just over 10,000 as of 2010, which was the latest data I could find on both.

So I have concluded that since both are the result of negligent use of those items they both need to be completely eliminated from our country and we could save over 20,000 lives a year with many of them being children. Since some people can't use them responsibly they need to be removed completely and anyone who disagrees just doesn't care about the children.

Think on that folks.... as I will be searching on craigslist for a horse now...


Let's ban them both! Though most say "hey they got rid of all the guns!! Let's celebrate!!"

8 hours later they are drunk and decide to drive home, only to crash into a caravan carrying 6 children coming back home from the amusement park.
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Post#287 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:31 am by Capn'O

What a brutally tragic event. My heart just aches for the families of these children. It's unimaginable.

There's a lot I could say politically but socially, I just ask that we don't make another folk hero of the killer. Keep the event fresh but keep his face off newspaper and magazine covers. Remove his likeness from the news.

I remember the names and faces of the previous killers in mass murders much better than the victims. Their likenesses are everywhere. On every article. That creeper from Aurora... his face sits fresh in my mind. The journalist killed in that attack was really the only counter. One of the few victims we actually remember going forward because her story had recently coincided with another attack.

Once the dust settles I hope the media digs their heels in... not so much on this tragedy and its perpetrator but uncovering the hurt that is ongoing from previous ones. Life isn't a video game and the effect of these things linger for years for those who have lost.
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Post#288 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:35 am by ibraheim718

BOOMbip wrote:I did a little bit of research and if the data is accurate it appears that there are roughly the same number of registered vehicles, all types at about 250 million, on the roads in the US as there are estimated guns of all types at over 230 million in the US. The research also yielded that roughly the same amount of people die from gunshots as they do from drunk driving accidents, both just over 10,000 as of 2010, which was the latest data I could find on both.

So I have concluded that since both are the result of negligent use of those items they both need to be completely eliminated from our country and we could save over 20,000 lives a year with many of them being children. Since some people can't use them responsibly they need to be removed completely and anyone who disagrees just doesn't care about the children.

Think on that folks.... as I will be searching on craigslist for a horse now...


This is just bad all the way around man...

You realize that almost all of those drunk driving deaths are accidental? Drunk or not they're accidental.. they're not premeditated. They don't intend on killing people when they get behind the wheel drunk.. right? I can speak from personal experience because I live in New Mexico which used to have a huge drunk driving death rate but have dramatically dropped because of the harsher laws put into place and the drunk driving blitz' across the state that disuade more and more people each year from driving drunk.

Further, you conveniently leave out one HUGE fact.. that drunk driving deaths are down 50% since 1982 and have been on a steady decline. And what I'm reading is showing that over 30,000 people die from gunshots each year... nothing near the 10,000 that died by gunshot that your referencing.
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Post#289 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:59 am by Moose

HixNixKnicksTix wrote:
Moose wrote:Gun sellers must be authorized and should be held accountable if they sell a gun to someone who should not have one...Gun owners need to be held accountable for their own guns...stolen guns can still be your fault if you did not take the proper steps to make sure it cannot be stolen.

I don't mind having basic psychological tests for gun owners every 6 years or so...

not to get personal...but I know a gun owner with dementia ...family took the guns out of the house...zero reason at this point he should have them...which is why many gun owners have documents signed so a legal gun owner can take his guns in such an event...however, if others didn't get involved, he would have those guns in the home still...not sure how you get around this issue if you live alone with no gun caretaker, or family or friends.

and if you dont re-register your guns, what happens?...not easy solutions wheb you think about the details...it just sounds nice


definitely all great ideas. and you're right...making registration/psych eval's strict will be tough to enforce strictly.

with that being said do you think people should be allowed to own semi-autos? if so should there be a limit on how many guns one owns or how many guns are permitted in one residence? how many bullets should each magazine hold at max?

because youre also right in that people will get their hands on guns. but what if they can't get their hands on a semi-automatic handgun let alone multiple semi-automatic handguns? or is it everyone's right, since the dawn of this great nation and the creation of the 2nd amendment (which is yet to be amended btw), to own a .224 rifle?


HixNixKnicksTix wrote:
Moose wrote:Gun sellers must be authorized and should be held accountable if they sell a gun to someone who should not have one...Gun owners need to be held accountable for their own guns...stolen guns can still be your fault if you did not take the proper steps to make sure it cannot be stolen.

I don't mind having basic psychological tests for gun owners every 6 years or so...

not to get personal...but I know a gun owner with dementia ...family took the guns out of the house...zero reason at this point he should have them...which is why many gun owners have documents signed so a legal gun owner can take his guns in such an event...however, if others didn't get involved, he would have those guns in the home still...not sure how you get around this issue if you live alone with no gun caretaker, or family or friends.

and if you dont re-register your guns, what happens?...not easy solutions wheb you think about the details...it just sounds nice


definitely all great ideas. and you're right...making registration/psych eval's strict will be tough to enforce strictly.

with that being said do you think people should be allowed to own semi-autos? if so should there be a limit on how many guns one owns or how many guns are permitted in one residence? how many bullets should each magazine hold at max?

because youre also right in that people will get their hands on guns. but what if they can't get their hands on a semi-automatic handgun let alone multiple semi-automatic handguns? or is it everyone's right, since the dawn of this great nation and the creation of the 2nd amendment (which is yet to be amended btw), to own a .224 rifle?



Well, most guns are now semi-automatic, no? Pistols, rifles, and even shotguns. Semi-automatic basically just means a gun that automatically reloads. I think I'm fine with the idea of people having semi-automatic pistols.

Automatics and guns of even more lethal strength are outlawed and will stay that way. They have basically drawn this line between private rights and protection and safety, and public safety.

Which is why the debate over carrying a handgun in public is discussed often.

There is no perfect answer. I think a semi pistol is fine. But now you also get into hunters who use rifles and shotguns for hunting. Semis make it a lot easier for them...especially if they hunt for actual food.


There are a lot of collectors. And as silly as it sounds to some, people really like guns. The look, the feel, the power, the style, craft, and art that goes into making a gun. The science. Even on a popular show like Pawn Stars, they always talk about how much they love guns.

I dont own a gun, and probably never will...But I did pull the trigger on a shotgun for a few...it was fun. I recommend others to try it. Obviously supervised in a safe and controlled environment. The intention behind the gun is usually the problem.

Accidents and horrific things do happen with guns, but I believe, after evaluating many alternate scenarios and situations...both past, present, and future...that it makes more sense to keep the second amendment intact (how we do gun control is a different topic). Some to want to ban it completely. I feel like this is a mistake. Others disagree.

People were saying, 'how many more acts like this does it take?' Freedom is a double-edge sword. I know some have scoffed at the notion, but you can say the same about abortions with people that act like it is a form of contraception, and even freedom of speech. Plenty of horrible things are said, even some leading to violence...some of it is just wrong, but you don't take it away. You deal with the good and the bad. You try to educate, and control what you are allowed to control, and work towards the most ideal situation.


I think we all got emotional because of what was going on today. Emotional and quick decisions don't work out a lot in politics, and therefore, they dont work out for us. Bad, dangerous, or sloppy laws are made based on certain events, or even ideology. I am sure a lot of people here aren't fans of the Patriot Act.
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Post#290 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:07 am by Little Italia

ibraheim718 wrote:
BOOMbip wrote:I did a little bit of research and if the data is accurate it appears that there are roughly the same number of registered vehicles, all types at about 250 million, on the roads in the US as there are estimated guns of all types at over 230 million in the US. The research also yielded that roughly the same amount of people die from gunshots as they do from drunk driving accidents, both just over 10,000 as of 2010, which was the latest data I could find on both.

So I have concluded that since both are the result of negligent use of those items they both need to be completely eliminated from our country and we could save over 20,000 lives a year with many of them being children. Since some people can't use them responsibly they need to be removed completely and anyone who disagrees just doesn't care about the children.

Think on that folks.... as I will be searching on craigslist for a horse now...


This is just bad all the way around man...

You realize that almost all of those drunk driving deaths are accidental? Drunk or not they're accidental.. they're not premeditated. They don't intend on killing people when they get behind the wheel drunk.. right? I can speak from personal experience because I live in New Mexico which used to have a huge drunk driving death rate but have dramatically dropped because of the harsher laws put into place and the drunk driving blitz' across the state that disuade more and more people each year from driving drunk.

Further, you conveniently leave out one HUGE fact.. that drunk driving deaths are down 50% since 1982 and have been on a steady decline. And what I'm reading is showing that over 30,000 people die from gunshots each year... nothing near the 10,000 that died by gunshot that your referencing.


Most people when they drink intend on getting hammered. So they know well in hand the danger they put others in and themselves when they get into a car. That sounds premeditated to me.

A drunk driver gets charged with vehicular manslaughter and a man who kills a burglar in his home is charged with manslaughter. If killing a burglar is premeditated, than so so should a drunk driver who took the keys and drove reckless.
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Post#291 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:32 am by Capn'O

To finish the thought with drunk driving... there was some low hanging fruit that has lessened the risk of driving and that was making drunk driving an act of manslaughter. Most people think twice now, eh?

With gun laws, I think the low hanging fruit is:

- stiffening background check requirements
- closing the gun show loophole
- charging store owners that fail to run proper background checks with manslaughter when one of their guns goes awry.
- Reinstate assault weapons ban. they're called that for a reason.

On a basic level, that at least slows this horrible trend. Most of the guys that do these things aren't lifer criminals. They're usually previously law abiding guys... something goes wrong for them or they succumb to mental illness and they snap. Cutting off an easy access point likely lessens the blow on a number of these attacks.



There's a long game to be played as well, socially. This is a society that loves its violence and sweeps mental illness under the carpet. Increasing support systems and reducing the stigma of mental illness is probably another step from a different direction.
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Post#292 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:33 am by BOOMbip

ibraheim718 wrote:
BOOMbip wrote:I did a little bit of research and if the data is accurate it appears that there are roughly the same number of registered vehicles, all types at about 250 million, on the roads in the US as there are estimated guns of all types at over 230 million in the US. The research also yielded that roughly the same amount of people die from gunshots as they do from drunk driving accidents, both just over 10,000 as of 2010, which was the latest data I could find on both.

So I have concluded that since both are the result of negligent use of those items they both need to be completely eliminated from our country and we could save over 20,000 lives a year with many of them being children. Since some people can't use them responsibly they need to be removed completely and anyone who disagrees just doesn't care about the children.

Think on that folks.... as I will be searching on craigslist for a horse now...


This is just bad all the way around man...

You realize that almost all of those drunk driving deaths are accidental? Drunk or not they're accidental.. they're not premeditated. They don't intend on killing people when they get behind the wheel drunk.. right? I can speak from personal experience because I live in New Mexico which used to have a huge drunk driving death rate but have dramatically dropped because of the harsher laws put into place and the drunk driving blitz' across the state that disuade more and more people each year from driving drunk.

Further, you conveniently leave out one HUGE fact.. that drunk driving deaths are down 50% since 1982 and have been on a steady decline. And what I'm reading is showing that over 30,000 people die from gunshots each year... nothing near the 10,000 that died by gunshot that your referencing.


Ooooohhhh ok.... they accidentally drank too much alcohol and the keys mistakenly found their way into the ignition and the didn't intend to drive drunk.... it just sort of happened.... all accident like. OK gotcha....which is all the more the reason why we should ban cars altogether.... we can't have those accidental drunk driving deaths going on all by themselves. No cars, no way for the 'accident' to mistakenly happen. Problem solved!

The stats I got on deaths by guns were from the FBI website.... so I guess it's not like they would know for sure or be accurate or anything... nah, I'm sure your source is much more credible.

By the way both drunk driving deaths and those that get killed by guns are going down and both have decreased rather significantly from the peaks...
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Post#293 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:35 am by Capn'O

I'm down with getting the majority of cars off the road as well. Congestion is a major factor in auto accidents. And high speeds. Slow the **** down, youngsta.
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Post#294 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:37 am by vallen

Little Italia wrote:
ibraheim718 wrote:
BOOMbip wrote:I did a little bit of research and if the data is accurate it appears that there are roughly the same number of registered vehicles, all types at about 250 million, on the roads in the US as there are estimated guns of all types at over 230 million in the US. The research also yielded that roughly the same amount of people die from gunshots as they do from drunk driving accidents, both just over 10,000 as of 2010, which was the latest data I could find on both.

So I have concluded that since both are the result of negligent use of those items they both need to be completely eliminated from our country and we could save over 20,000 lives a year with many of them being children. Since some people can't use them responsibly they need to be removed completely and anyone who disagrees just doesn't care about the children.

Think on that folks.... as I will be searching on craigslist for a horse now...


This is just bad all the way around man...

You realize that almost all of those drunk driving deaths are accidental? Drunk or not they're accidental.. they're not premeditated. They don't intend on killing people when they get behind the wheel drunk.. right? I can speak from personal experience because I live in New Mexico which used to have a huge drunk driving death rate but have dramatically dropped because of the harsher laws put into place and the drunk driving blitz' across the state that disuade more and more people each year from driving drunk.

Further, you conveniently leave out one HUGE fact.. that drunk driving deaths are down 50% since 1982 and have been on a steady decline. And what I'm reading is showing that over 30,000 people die from gunshots each year... nothing near the 10,000 that died by gunshot that your referencing.


Most people when they drink intend on getting hammered. So they know well in hand the danger they put others in and themselves when they get into a car. That sounds premeditated to me.

A drunk driver gets charged with vehicular manslaughter and a man who kills a burglar in his home is charged with manslaughter. If killing a burglar is premeditated, than so so should a drunk driver who took the keys and drove reckless.


Laws have changed drastically regarding "home invasions" which is now the term that used to be B&E, in fact they dont even recommend warning shots. shoot to kill. it would have to be extremely rare for anyone to be charged protecting there home's these days. at least here in CT since that awful tragedy several years ago. im not sure if your hung up on one particular case, but the comparisons you make arent statistically close. people still have the right to protect there homes. nobody in this country has the right to drive drunk.
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Post#295 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:22 am by BOOMbip

If someone wants lists of mass killings, spree killings, historical massacres, work killings, rampage killings, domestic killings and others with details about number of deaths, location and countries they took place in, names of perps and all the information you would want wikipedia has alot of lists. I was going to provide links to some but decided not to, if someone wants to find them it's not hard to use word search on their site to get to them. So many across the world I had no idea that were this many and I thought I did know. Really, really sad... sick world we live in, seeing all those lists made me a bit disheartened. :nonono:
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Post#296 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:02 am by Rasho Brezec

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Post#297 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:44 am by GettinitDone

These shootings are happening only in US not because only Americans are psychos and the international world is normal, but rather because only in US are guns allowed. If other international countries also allow guns to citizens and allow the "stand your ground" rule, the same things will happen all over the world.

Suspects are usually males in their late teens to 23-25 yos. I believe it's because of pressure, stress, which happen to normal people. But at their age, their thinking process and mentality are prone to blaming and avoiding responsibilities. If something is messed up in their life, they blame other people, the weather, the government, the asians, the blacks, the whites, basically everything and everyone but themselves.

I believe just about EVERYone at around this age has experienced anger, some rage, it could be because of very simple reasons like our moms telling us we can't go out on weekend, or our teacher cracking down on our weed habit, or we're told to mown the lawn or wash dishes, or some guy at ball park played too rough and elbowed us in the mouth and a random adult in a random street "disrespects" us... some people have mild temperament, others could be angry, others could be so in rage at small compounding incidents in life they feel the world is against them and take them so personally, they just buy gun and kill, thinking it's how the world hears them.

But the difference between US and outside US is, the teens and early 20s people outside US don't have access to guns so they just keep imagining themselves buying guns and killing the people they hate... over and over, until they get bored, and forget about their rage. After a while when they reflect back, they're like, "geeez I was over the top, I may have been angry or upset, but I shouldn't have imagined killing those people. Noone deserves to die." They outgrew their irrational thinking. In US? Those teens and early 20s people can get guns and can realistically bring their rage fantasy to life. The sad thing for the killers is once it's done, they can't turn back time and take it all back, they have killed, while the people outside the US (those with same or maybe more rage) who never could get access to guns were able to "forget their rage" and move on with their lives.

Imo, the killers are as much the victims of the guns as much as the real victims.
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Post#298 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:31 am by rammagen

Very simple you want to compare drunk driving to gun related homicides then tell me how may people dive everyday because you need to equate that into your figures because you are equating all gun owners and deaths in the others. You'll see percentages are a bitch because it will drop dramatically while gun deaths will stay the same.
by the chart there are 250 million registered vehicles on the road don't do this by the year do it by the day 125 million vehicles on the road everyday and there how many drunk driving deaths are there? Because every time you get behind the wheel you have a choice to drive sober or drunk, the same way every time you get behind the trigger
I will say this again I own a gun but I am for gun control. There is no reason hunting or other wise you need to own an assault rifle. Home or personal defense by a shotgun or a pistol. Most hunters I know use bolt or lever action weapons (more accurate)and when they use a semi automatic there is cap on the number of rounds you have in the weapon. (6 i believe)
we need to start enforcing stricter gun laws on the type of weapons. I also believe 90 % of the assault weapons owned in the states are owned by legal private citizens. But I also believe before you can own one you should do a training in the military and got thru the same training I did. I would feel much safer knowing my idiot neighbor who owns an m16 knows the damage it can do and had it drilled into the safety that is required to own one responsibly
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Post#299 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:58 am by Grinditout

For the point on drunk driving, there are those devices that require you to breathe into it for you to start the car. I wouldn't mind that being mandatory for all vehicles.

Also if not a ban on most guns, I'd want stricter and more comprehensive tests and a limit on the amount of guns one can own. I've looked at other countries who require much more from an individual to own a gun.
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Post#300 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:49 am by 21shumpshumpst

This problem is way bigger than gun control. Yes that is going to have to be part of the solution but we also have to look at the broader picture.

Why are these kids going insane and doing these things? Is it bullying? Is it information overload? Is it that we have more technology now that should make us a more connected society but it has made us so disconnected that these idiot kids now can't have a face to face conversation without checking their iphone every 5 seconds.

How did they get access to these guns? Yes gun control would help but what kind of gun control? If you have a mentally disabled child you can't own a gun?

There is sooo much more to think about than simply "gun control is the answer".

As far as these shootings. I was at work all day while it happened. Didn't let it sink in until this morning when I was watching the news and saw these kids being interviewed. How do you kill 5 year olds? Seriously there is something really wrong with our society when we breed these killers who are popping up everywhere.
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Post#301 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:38 am by BOOMbip

Upon closer examination of the data I was reading about last night I guess the number of deaths by firearm I mentioned were being classified as homicides and that accounts for 40% of all deaths with suicide being the leading firearm death and accounts for 55% of all firearm deaths. Also DUI accident deaths account for 30% of all vehicle accident deaths. These are US numbers.

This morning in an attempt to verify my statements I stumbled across this website that a ton of data on guns, gun control, crime... just so much it's almost too much to read and digest I haven't read even a fraction of it yet. Although I noted that some of the surveys and data is outdated or collected many years and in some cases decades ago even if the page has been revised as recently this month.

I'm still trying to find some information I was seeking this morning, which is how many of the homicides, not suicides, are committed with legally registered guns by the legally registered owners and/or how many are committed by people who are not the legal owners and/or not legally permitted to carry a gun. If any other stat sleuth feels the urge to help find that I would appreciate it I think the discussion would benefit from it.
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Post#302 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:39 pm by adrenaLINe

the number is around 30000 a year killed by gun violence in the USA every year....

does it matter it is by accident, suicide, or murder or the hands of the police?
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Post#303 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:46 pm by Thugger HBC

adrenaLINe wrote:the number is around 30000 a year killed by gun violence in the USA every year....

does it matter it is by accident, suicide, or murder or the hands of the police?

Nope, it shouldn't matter..one is too much.

The key is to find solutions which can bring that number down over time, because the problem is not likely to go away in it's entirety.
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Post#304 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:55 pm by BOOMbip

Well if eliminating something because of one death is the goal then we need to do exactly as I said before. Ban cars along with guns because one death is too many, right? Since context is something that is too much for people to grasp and doesn't matter anyway. While we are at it we need to eliminate alcohol, tobacco, fast food, prescription drugs.... heck even trampolines. Because one death is too many.... and accidents happen so we need to protect people from themselves....

I came across another stat on that site as I was trying to sift through all the data. In the US about a million times a year armed citizens protect themselves or thwart a crime all of types with a gun. I believe that's just private citizens not including law enforcement or security personnel.
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Post#305 Re: OT: 27 Killed, 18 elementary school stude
Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:18 pm by ShaolinAssAsin

BOOMbip wrote:Well if eliminating something because of one death is the goal then we need to do exactly as I said before. Ban cars along with guns because one death is too many, right? Since context is something that is too much for people to grasp and doesn't matter anyway. While we are at it we need to eliminate alcohol, tobacco, fast food, prescription drugs.... heck even trampolines. Because one death is too many.... and accidents happen so we need to protect people from themselves....


I just dont get this argument. Does anyo one think that guns have the positive utility of cars or perscription meds? Iant it silly to really try to equate them?

It isnt a stretch to call a gun an instrument of death. It has a very low positive utility, and a huge potential negative effect.....the deaths and all...

To me its obvious guns carry far more trouble than they're worth on the whole. Ive yet to come across a solid line of reasoning that yields 'Thus, guns are good for us all'.

Im not even trying to be argumentative. I really dont get the the rationale, from a perspective of the best interests of society at large.
ShaolinAssAsin
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