The Knicks Triangle Offense: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[drk3351]

Hey Knicks fans. Not sure if you remember but I made the Triangle Offense video a few months ago on the Summer League team. Here I breakdown the Knicks running it in the preseason and point out some of the positives and negatives I'm seeing. Let me know what you think and thanks for watching.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bfDeVChoco[/youtube]

[NoLayupRule]

awesome stuff - can't wait to really check this out

[21 Hussle]

Great video as always man. With the poll I'm fine with all options, its nice to switch it up.

[Ignitowsky]

Nice job Daniel

[Boarder Patrol]

Really nice job.

Seeing that stuff with Dally makes me a little more excited for Bargs, at least offensively. He could feast off those midrange looks (the one shot he's good at), can create better than Dally and could open up space for cutters.

Since we'd need to see a defensive PF obviously, maybe Bargs/Acy/Melo/Shump/Jose could work.

[waya]

Nice!

[Besart19]

Players that would fit the triangle and try to sign and/or trade in the future (2015 & 2016):

Dallas: Harris, Dirk (joking... he will retire there)
Houston: T.Jones, Papanikolaou, Ariza (unlikely)
Memphis: Gasol, Conely, Prince, Lee, Koufos
New Orleans: Gordon, Asik, Babbit, Fredette
San Antonio: Leonard, Ginobili, D.Green, Belinelli

Denver: Gallo, Chandler, Afflalo, Faried, Foye
Minnesota: Rubio, Martin, Thadd Young
Oklahoma: Durant, Jackson, Adams (they have a team option)
Portland: Aldridge, Batum, Matthew, Wright
Utah: Kanter

Golden State: Lee, Livingston, Thompson, Barnes, Iguodala (FA in 2017... only via trade)
LA Clippers: D.Jordan, Crawford, M.Barnes, Deflino, Farmar, Bullock
LA Lakers: Kobe, Lin
Pheonix: D.Green, Dragic Bros and Morris Bros (unlikely though bc long contracts, only via trade)
Sacramento: Landry, Casspi, R.Evans and Guy (but unlikely due to his high salary demands)

Boston: Rondo, Bass, J.Green
Brooklyn: Garnett, Kirilenko, Lopez
New York: Anthony (check), Calderon (check), Shumpert (check), Hardaway (check), Wear (check), Dally (check), Acy (check), Early (check), Bargs (to be defined)... others, can all GTFO
Philadelphia: J-Rich (vet min) and the high pick rookies which probably they will keep them all
Toronto: L.Williams, Ross

Chicago: Gasol, Dunleavy, Butler, Hinrich, McDermott, Snell
Cleveland: M.Miller, Varejao, Waiters
Detroit: Drummond, Monroe, Jerebko
Indiana: Hibbert, West, Scola, G.Hill, Stuckey
Milwaukee: Ilyasova, Middleton, Dudley, Mayo, Knight

Atlanta: Horford, Millsap, Brand
Charlotte: A.Jefferson, Stephenson, M.Williams, Kidd-Gilchrist, Biyombo
Miami: Deng, McRoberts, Granger, Haslem, Chalmers
Orlando: Vucevic, T.Harris, W.Green
Washington: Beal, Nene

[Jeff Van Gully]

excellent work. love the intensity dalembert is bringing, but he is not right as the starter for this offense. if he were to maybe stick around and back up someone like marc gasol, that #1 option would be in good shape.

i really think when bargnani comes back, he is at least going to nail option 1. the rest of the game...

[Fat Kat]

Great work as usual.

[Deeeez Knicks]

I would love a healthy Al Horford on this team

[j4remi]

Love these vids man, great break down. I actually don't mind Dalembert's play, he's not the permanent solution but you work with what you've got.

[RebelWithACause]

Great breakdown!

However I still do not get why Jackson was so persistent to install the trinagle offense here.

a) we do not have great personnel for it right now
b) The offense was fine and pretty much maximized under Woodson (even it the offense was ugly).
In 2012-2013 we were the 3rd best offensive team and last year 11th best. More importantly in 2014, when everyone got back on board again and we were healthier (Tyson, JR and Amare mainly) we were the 2nd best !!! offense in the league.
The problem is and was our defense.

[NoLayupRule]

Hey Knicks fans. Not sure if you remember but I made the Triangle Offense video a few months ago on the Summer League team. Here I breakdown the Knicks running it in the preseason and point out some of the positives and negatives I'm seeing. Let me know what you think and thanks for watching.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bfDeVChoco[/youtube]

great job!

this is vastly superior to what Spike did for MSG

I feel like I understand the triangle and how we are using and misusing it better from you than from the "experts"

[Deeeez Knicks]

Great breakdown!

However I still do not get why Jackson was so persistent to install the trinagle offense here.

a) we do not have great personnel for it right now
b) The offense was fine and pretty much maximized under Woodson (even it the offense was ugly).
In 2012-2013 we were the 3rd best offensive team and last year 11th best. More importantly in 2014, when everyone got back on board again and we were healthier (Tyson, JR and Amare mainly) we were the 2nd best !!! offense in the league.
The problem is and was our defense.

the offense under Woody was a gimmick that got exposed. Relying on iso's, 3's and perimeter shots will eventually get you burned as it did for us in the playoffs and much of last season.

[RebelWithACause]

Great breakdown!

However I still do not get why Jackson was so persistent to install the trinagle offense here.

a) we do not have great personnel for it right now
b) The offense was fine and pretty much maximized under Woodson (even it the offense was ugly).
In 2012-2013 we were the 3rd best offensive team and last year 11th best. More importantly in 2014, when everyone got back on board again and we were healthier (Tyson, JR and Amare mainly) we were the 2nd best !!! offense in the league.
The problem is and was our defense.

the offense under Woody was a gimmick that got exposed. Relying on iso's, 3's and perimeter shots will eventually get you burned as it did for us in the playoffs and much of last season.

Disagree.

The triangle is only a savant if you have incredible players to work with it.
Calderon cannot live up to his strengths in the triangle. Amare and Jr , respectively 2 of our best offensive players look lost in the offense. It could be ok for Melo, but I am wating for judgement on that.
The Bulls kept on using the triangle regardless of fit and personnel after Jordan retired in 98. The result, disastrous.

My main message was that defense is the main problem, offense never was with this roster, so the shift towards the triangle excitement is not understandable for me at least.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Great breakdown!

However I still do not get why Jackson was so persistent to install the trinagle offense here.

a) we do not have great personnel for it right now
b) The offense was fine and pretty much maximized under Woodson (even it the offense was ugly).
In 2012-2013 we were the 3rd best offensive team and last year 11th best. More importantly in 2014, when everyone got back on board again and we were healthier (Tyson, JR and Amare mainly) we were the 2nd best !!! offense in the league.
The problem is and was our defense.

the offense under Woody was a gimmick that got exposed. Relying on iso's, 3's and perimeter shots will eventually get you burned as it did for us in the playoffs and much of last season.

Disagree.

The triangle is only a savant if you have incredible players to work with it.
Calderon cannot live up to his strengths in the triangle. Amare and Jr , respectively 2 of our best offensive players look lost in the offense. It could be ok for Melo, but I am wating for judgement on that.
The Bulls kept on using the triangle regardless of fit and personnel after Jordan retired in 98. The result, disastrous.

My main message was that defense is the main problem, offense never was with this roster, so the shift towards the triangle excitement is not understandable for me at least.

I definetly agree with your main message that defense was and is still our biggest problem.

I just disagree that our offense was fine. The Knicks had a decent overall offensive rating, but that is deceiving because they took a ton of 3’s. Maybe the numbers say that is good offense, but its too inconsistent and easy to defend when your offense is based around perimeter shots and iso’s. There were a lot of stretches where we went cold. The offense was easy to shut down in the playoffs too. We had 3 or 4 players standing around watching 20’ from the basket so the defense can dig in and its easy to defend. I was never a fan of the Woody offense.

As far as the triangle and how it will work, it remains to be seen. The Bulls post Jordan are a bad example because they lost multiple hall of famers and were in tank mode. When you lose Jordan and Pippen the results will be disastrous no matter what offense is being run.

As far as this roster, I think Calderon is a good fit. He’s a smart player, elite shooter and good/willing passer. Amare and JR will be gone soon either way so it doesn’t matter if they fit or not. They were even a problem in Woody’s offense.

Melo? I think he will be a good fit and this type of offense will help him be more of a facilitator.

Overall it will take some time. I think the triangle sounds a lot more unorthodox and out of the box then it is. When you break it down it has the same concepts as other systems. Good ball movement, player movement, spacing, quick decisions, multiple options, good shooting, post play. Along with defense, those are the type of players I'd like to have around Melo. Ultimatley, as long as we bring in the right players it'll work like most systems.

[RebelWithACause]

Spoiler:

the offense under Woody was a gimmick that got exposed. Relying on iso's, 3's and perimeter shots will eventually get you burned as it did for us in the playoffs and much of last season.

Disagree.

The triangle is only a savant if you have incredible players to work with it.
Calderon cannot live up to his strengths in the triangle. Amare and Jr , respectively 2 of our best offensive players look lost in the offense. It could be ok for Melo, but I am wating for judgement on that.
The Bulls kept on using the triangle regardless of fit and personnel after Jordan retired in 98. The result, disastrous.

My main message was that defense is the main problem, offense never was with this roster, so the shift towards the triangle excitement is not understandable for me at least.

I definetly agree with your main message that defense was and is still our biggest problem.

I just disagree that our offense was fine. The Knicks had a decent overall offensive rating, but that is deceiving because they took a ton of 3’s. Maybe the numbers say that is good offense, but its too inconsistent and easy to defend when your offense is based around perimeter shots and iso’s. There were a lot of stretches where we went cold. The offense was easy to shut down in the playoffs too. We had 3 or 4 players standing around watching 20’ from the basket so the defense can dig in and its easy to defend. I was never a fan of the Woody offense.

As far as the triangle and how it will work, it remains to be seen. The Bulls post Jordan are a bad example because they lost multiple hall of famers and were in tank mode. When you lose Jordan and Pippen the results will be disastrous no matter what offense is being run.

As far as this roster, I think Calderon is a good fit. He’s a smart player, elite shooter and good/willing passer. Amare and JR will be gone soon either way so it doesn’t matter if they fit or not. They were even a problem in Woody’s offense.

Melo? I think he will be a good fit and this type of offense will help him be more of a facilitator.

Overall it will take some time. I think the triangle sounds a lot more unorthodox and out of the box then it is. When you break it down it has the same concepts as other systems. Good ball movement, player movement, spacing, quick decisions, multiple options, good shooting, post play. Along with defense, those are the type of players I'd like to have around Melo. Ultimatley, as long as we bring in the right players it'll work like most systems.

We are on the same page with the defensive woes, so that is good.

A few things:

- Yes the offense of Woodson was too stagnant for me as well (downright ugly and only effective beacuse of Melo). However taking a ton of 3s for the most part is good offense. The results may vary, but league wide more and more threes are taken. So perimter shots are a good thing and good offense, but the stagnant part was bad, I agree.

-Bulls after Jordan were just an example of a team that installed and kept the triangle besides not having the personnel and keep believing the triangle is a miracle cure for good basketball. Hence it is not.

- Calderon is maximized in a PnR heavy offense, not the triangle. He is the best passing PG Melo ever got to work with, so i hope we do not waste his talents in the triangle.
Amare and JR Smith, well they are here this year and I want the team to play well, so I do care about those guys.
JR is not a lock to be gone next year and Amare is not ruled out as of now to be brought back on a smaller contract.
Melo indeed could be a good fit fot the triangle, but so he is for multiple other offensive schemes. (because of his versatility)
Slightly off topic, I have my concerns about building a team in the next 2 years that fits the triangle and could contend.

Generally I am not opposed towards the triangle, it is just that it feels really enforced as of now.
I mean I also support the Lakers, so I am pretty familiar with it already.
The triangle can be a good offensive system with the right personnel, but so can many others. I just do not like the triangle to cause that many Knicks fans to be excited about it.
The focus should be on defense, not the triangle.

[jdennis187]

Hey Knicks fans. Not sure if you remember but I made the Triangle Offense video a few months ago on the Summer League team. Here I breakdown the Knicks running it in the preseason and point out some of the positives and negatives I'm seeing. Let me know what you think and thanks for watching.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bfDeVChoco[/youtube]

Great job dude, better than the spike/msg special