Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselves?

[Zenith]

It may be too early for calling on Phil to be fired but it certainly isn't to early to judge his moves (or lack there of) last offseason and while advising Dolan.

The two major minuses so far are nixing the Lowry trade and the Chandler trade. His big coup was signing Melo in which he offered him 20 million more then the next highest bidder.

He's been pretty much an abject failure at this point. I don't know why some here continue to give him a pass, I guess they are just happy Dolans not running things eventhough the guy they replaced him is a check out by 4, vacation in LA, totally detached, Mike Holmgren type.

LOL at thinking you can build and change team atmosphere in 8 months.

[nykballa2k4]

I had mentioned this when it was announced that Jackson would be the GM. While I was thrilled (Phil Jackson is a legend, a former Knick, blah, blah), I did question how good he could be...as a GM. A role that he really has no track record or experience with. As a head coach and motivator? Obviously, none better and no question. But as a GM? Hard to say that that was a coup for the Knicks. One would hope that he would be able to carry his ability to get players to play "the right way" to his ability to determine which of those qualities apply to players that he would either draft, sign or trade for. Hard to tell how well the translation has gone given the short time period and lack of starting resources. Jason Smith appears to have been a flub but that's about it so far.

I think the Jason Smith signing is interesting because of all the conversation around it. People were saying "Triangle was made for Jason Smith" and vice versa. Jason Smith is a good back up on a complete team. I don't think he is a good fit with the guys we have right now, maybe would be good next to Cole, but he really doesn't rebound and is not a smart defender. He is athletic and tall and can shoot.

[denterprise]

Jackson has been pretty straight forward about this team. He described the roster as clumsy,he talked about our cap situation and lack of flexibility financially, and lack of draft picks. He said the system would take time to learn. Then he brings in a rookie coach to deal with the mess they inherited and implement his vision.

I can see fans being hopeful but no one should have been fooled.

[MaseInYourFace]

I had mentioned this when it was announced that Jackson would be the GM. While I was thrilled (Phil Jackson is a legend, a former Knick, blah, blah), I did question how good he could be...as a GM. A role that he really has no track record or experience with. As a head coach and motivator? Obviously, none better and no question. But as a GM? Hard to say that that was a coup for the Knicks. One would hope that he would be able to carry his ability to get players to play "the right way" to his ability to determine which of those qualities apply to players that he would either draft, sign or trade for. Hard to tell how well the translation has gone given the short time period and lack of starting resources. Jason Smith appears to have been a flub but that's about it so far.

I think the Jason Smith signing is interesting because of all the conversation around it. People were saying "Triangle was made for Jason Smith" and vice versa. Jason Smith is a good back up on a complete team. I don't think he is a good fit with the guys we have right now, maybe would be good next to Cole, but he really doesn't rebound and is not a smart defender. He is athletic and tall and can shoot.

I wouldn't call him athletic.

[nykballa2k4]

I had mentioned this when it was announced that Jackson would be the GM. While I was thrilled (Phil Jackson is a legend, a former Knick, blah, blah), I did question how good he could be...as a GM. A role that he really has no track record or experience with. As a head coach and motivator? Obviously, none better and no question. But as a GM? Hard to say that that was a coup for the Knicks. One would hope that he would be able to carry his ability to get players to play "the right way" to his ability to determine which of those qualities apply to players that he would either draft, sign or trade for. Hard to tell how well the translation has gone given the short time period and lack of starting resources. Jason Smith appears to have been a flub but that's about it so far.

I think the Jason Smith signing is interesting because of all the conversation around it. People were saying "Triangle was made for Jason Smith" and vice versa. Jason Smith is a good back up on a complete team. I don't think he is a good fit with the guys we have right now, maybe would be good next to Cole, but he really doesn't rebound and is not a smart defender. He is athletic and tall and can shoot.

I wouldn't call him athletic.

for an F/C he is pretty reasonable there. Not like Stro Swift, but safely average

[nykballa2k4]

Wrong

[nykballa2k4]

Thread

[StephNYKurry]

I still don't quite understand why anyone has any type of investment in this year. Win or Lose, it was always a placeholder year.

Nothing else needs to be said

[Vash]

Here's again the truth....if you have semi intelligence, you know that Phil Jackson guys never get hired because the triangle is a high school offense. GM's know it, other coaches know it...hence no once hires Phil guys. It's all Pat Riley guys in the NBA. Similarly to the NFL, it's all Bill PArcels guys becuase that's the proven teaching method.

Phil is a joke, the triangle is a joke and the only people who fooled themselves are those who listened to the media, the lower IQ individuals and the under 25's.

Melo, is the same loser he has always been. He had 2 really nice years, both when Chauncey Billups was on the team. Karl Bad mouths Melo, D'Toni Bad Mouths.....Woodson will not because that's his boy.....

Melo will ask out as originallly planned. He will blame the losing, which if you are a "GREAT" player, your team can at least be at .500. But we all seen Melo's game before, all offense, all excuses, no D and no ball movement. Melo will ask to be traded becaue he has the money. Loser game and all name.

Think of it, Dolan and the CAA HIRED Spike Lee to make a special so fans can buy into the Triangle which is a JOKE scheme. Does not work unless Kobe and SHaq/Gasol or Jordan and Pippen. THat's why no one wants to hire Phil Jackasson guys.

[Butch718]

this thread is pure gold. Fans bashing Phil when it was never about this year. Talk about a bunch of impatient suckers. No wonder people say you can't rebuild in NY. It's because of shortsighted fans like those represented I this thread.

[KnicksGadfly]

Jackson has been pretty straight forward about this team. He described the roster as clumsy,he talked about our cap situation and lack of flexibility financially, and lack of draft picks. He said the system would take time to learn. Then he brings in a rookie coach to deal with the mess they inherited and implement his vision.

I can see fans being hopeful but no one should have been fooled.

As Carlos Boozer likes to scream, AND1 MOTHAF*****

The big issue is that some fans kept holding onto hope that Mike Woodson was the problem. I even argued with some fans about that. They tricked themselves into believing that, and so they thought that with Woodson gone, our team would start winning. Phil didn't trick anybody. Joke's on you. Our roster has sucked from the beginning. Our team culture was awful. It will change.

[GYK]

I think Fisher and Phil knew they were going to be bad.
Fish even said he knew ESPN wish they knew Melo was out of the lineup to not show the game.
Think he wants a silent tank not the high fueled Knicks media coverage.

[Big_Apple]

What's the closest thing we have to proof that Phil nixed the Lowry trade?

Based on the first few pages of a Google search on it the only thing I can find are some forum posts saying Dolan nixed the deal and that Phil and Dolan had been talking for a few months before he was officially hired.

[prophet_of_rage]

How did Phil fool anybody? His scouting report basically said...."this team SUCKS". Its gonna be a down year people, no need to go off the deep end and drown in the haterade. The primary objective of this season is to establish the system, that means a lot of losses will come as we transition to an almost complete opposite system and culture that the Knicks have been accustomed to.

The scouting report fooled you. That's no real scouting report. That's a shot to get the fans to jump on the players for obvious weaknesses and deflect attention from the management side for assembling this roster of misfits. Let's use our lightning rod Amar'e for an example. Said he was important offensively and wanted him to play four 8s. (What?) And then said he had to be better defensively to do that. (Seriously?)

Amar'e has been a below average to average defender for his 12 year career and was coming off two seasons of injury. So you're going to say we need him to play 32 minutes if he can defend. We know he can't so he's not playing 32 minutes unless a miracle happened. It sounded good and made us think management sees what we see. They see more and they see their own mistakes, but Phil covered that with fan-baiting nonsense.

Or how about JR Smith he will have to get in line if he wants to play unless he's a personality outlier like Dennis Rodman. Well of course he's a personality outlier like Dennis Rodman. He's been in the league since 18 and behaves the exact same way. What do you think he is?

[Hijinks]

I think he did. He said all the right things and build some expectations, that this atleast would be a playoff team. my guess is, he knew, that it would be incredibly hard for this team to even sniff the playoffs and maybe even hoped, that they would lose out from the beginning. thus paving the way for the tank.

[GardenFaith]

Well Phil did manage to get rid of Felton.

I didn't care that we traded Tyson as he flat out sucked the last 2 years but he seems to come to life again now he is back West.

I don't think Phil has done a bad job at all but I think he needs get creative and make some trades now.

We can't just rely on "Tanking" as our game plan nor can we say next summer the free agents will flock here as that seems to of being our plan since 2008

[Jheri Curl]

This season was always a throwaway

[duetta]

The Knicks out-performed their talent two seasons ago and then under-performed last season.

It was reasonable to think that they could rebound to a median position this season, assuming Fisher was able to coach, and that the team was able to jell.

Thing is, Fisher may not have been ready to become a head coach - and this group of players may require a lot more time to learn and adapt to the triangle.

Anthony's injury, however, makes all of this academic - since if he's not healthy, they're a sub-500 team anyway, and the season no longer matters, except with regard to draft position (and sorting through which pieces you can extract future value from and which you simply get rid of).

[spikeslovechild]

:lol: this thread is pure gold. Fans bashing Phil when it was never about this year. Talk about a bunch of impatient suckers. No wonder people say you can't rebuild in NY. It's because of shortsighted fans like those represented I this thread.

How is exactly is Phil Rebuilding? Rebuilding teams don't just suck they collect young talent and picks for the future.

Phil didn't do that in any of the moves in the offseason. Minn is rebuilding. PHI is rebuilding. Utah is rebuilding. Orlando is rebuilding. We traded for Jose Calderon.

[MaseInYourFace]

:lol: this thread is pure gold. Fans bashing Phil when it was never about this year. Talk about a bunch of impatient suckers. No wonder people say you can't rebuild in NY. It's because of shortsighted fans like those represented I this thread.

How is exactly is Phil Rebuilding? Rebuilding teams don't just suck they collect young talent and picks for the future.

Phil didn't do that in any of the moves in the offseason. Minn is rebuilding. PHI is rebuilding. Utah is rebuilding. Orlando is rebuilding. We traded for Jose Calderon.

To be fair I don't think I've heard Phil himself use the word "rebuilding."