July 1st Free Agency Begins - Catchall thread

[Capn'O]

What big market contender has a decent pick, young bucks with potential, enough expirings to offer cap relief and possibly a quality vet? What team can trade that and still remain a contender?

Once it becomes apparent that Kevin Durant will be staying put in Oklahoma City, the Washington Wizards are the team we should be looking at to move Melo to. Melo, being from the area, would certainly waive his no-trade to play alongside John Wall and fill the "go-to" need the Wizards will certainly be missing since Paul Pierce moved on to LA.

Carmelo Anthony for Bradley Beal, Nene's expiring and a 1st or two.

I'll take that

Yeah - it's actually a deal that may work for all parties involved if Melo is unhappy with the long term Knick outlook. Keep it on the backburner.

[Brooklyn_Yards]

Dorell wright
carlos Boozer
Javale mcgee
WIll Bynum
kevin seraphin
Big Baby
Jason Terry
willie green
Dahntay jones
darell arthur
Nazr Muhammad
Reggie evans
joel freeland
John Jenkins
Henry Sims
Ben Gordon
Rasual butler
Jerome Jordan
Elton brand
Landry Fields
Greg steisma
michael beasley
Ryan Hollins

Too bad McGee doesn't have a brain. Nazr is done but I'd take a flier on him for locker room purposes. After reading this list I'd rather just bring in another youngin or Kurt Thomas.

[Carl_Karlson]

Dorell wright
carlos Boozer
Javale mcgee
WIll Bynum
kevin seraphin
Big Baby
Jason Terry
willie green
Dahntay jones
darell arthur
Nazr Muhammad
Reggie evans
joel freeland
John Jenkins
Henry Sims
Ben Gordon
Rasual butler
Jerome Jordan
Elton brand
Landry Fields
Greg steisma
michael beasley
Ryan Hollins

Too bad McGee doesn't have a brain. Nazr is done but I'd take a flier on him for locker room purposes. After reading this list I'd rather just bring in another youngin or Kurt Thomas.

[MeloTime]

We should look at Ben Gordan for off bench scoring

Sign Boozer




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[blanko]

I would trade melo for love. Melo get's his shot at a ring and we get about 5 years younger. Love will excel next to a rim protectors like lopez and prozningis.

Assets my man....assets. Why would Cleveland trade Love for the reasons you give.....why would Cleveland get an older and slightly damaged scoring machine for a guy who we all know is capable of similar numbers, albeit much better rebounding? I'm sure you would trade Melo for Love, but no one else would....certainly not Cleveland.

As long as NY is cool with not getting max value for trading their "superstar"....as that doesn't happen anyhow, then NY should get some bites, but I doubt Melo brings back a current AS level player. A decent pick, young bucks with potential, and some cap space, maybe throw in a former quality vet. But Melo makes a ton of money and only does one thing......the main problem is he's not at best in the middle of his prime, though some would argue he's on the latter half, and he's coming off back to back years with injuries with the shoulder and knee respectively. Five years ago.....Melo would net you a lot, NY knows this better than anyone.....now.....not so much, certainly not a caliber of Love.

Fact is that Lebron is basically a 4 at this point in his career. Kevin love can not play any position other than power forward, he doesn't have the perimeter skills to play outside consistently nor does he have the speed to defend the 3. Love can't defend the rim so he can't play the 5. Basically Kevin Love does not fit with lebron. Now what a healthy Melo gives is a guy who can switch from 3/4 depending on the lineup. He can defend small forwards when Cleveland plays lebron at the 4. Also cleveland's "window" isn't as large as people think. Lebron is 30 years old and has been in the league for 12 years and Kyrie's knees are a question mark. I believe that Melo going to the US olympic camp is partly trying to show lebron that he is healthy.

[GONYK]

I would trade melo for love. Melo get's his shot at a ring and we get about 5 years younger. Love will excel next to a rim protectors like lopez and prozningis.

Assets my man....assets. Why would Cleveland trade Love for the reasons you give.....why would Cleveland get an older and slightly damaged scoring machine for a guy who we all know is capable of similar numbers, albeit much better rebounding? I'm sure you would trade Melo for Love, but no one else would....certainly not Cleveland.

As long as NY is cool with not getting max value for trading their "superstar"....as that doesn't happen anyhow, then NY should get some bites, but I doubt Melo brings back a current AS level player. A decent pick, young bucks with potential, and some cap space, maybe throw in a former quality vet. But Melo makes a ton of money and only does one thing......the main problem is he's not at best in the middle of his prime, though some would argue he's on the latter half, and he's coming off back to back years with injuries with the shoulder and knee respectively. Five years ago.....Melo would net you a lot, NY knows this better than anyone.....now.....not so much, certainly not a caliber of Love.

Fact is that Lebron is basically a 4 at this point in his career. Kevin love can not play any position other than power forward, he doesn't have the perimeter skills to play outside consistently nor does he have the speed to defend the 3. Love can't defend the rim so he can't play the 5. Basically Kevin Love does not fit with lebron. Now what a healthy Melo gives is a guy who can switch from 3/4 depending on the lineup. He can defend small forwards when Cleveland plays lebron at the 4. Also cleveland's "window" isn't as large as people think. Lebron is 30 years old and has been in the league for 12 years and Kyrie's knees are a question mark. I believe that Melo going to the US olympic camp is partly trying to show lebron that he is healthy.

And what is the other part?

[blanko]

Assets my man....assets. Why would Cleveland trade Love for the reasons you give.....why would Cleveland get an older and slightly damaged scoring machine for a guy who we all know is capable of similar numbers, albeit much better rebounding? I'm sure you would trade Melo for Love, but no one else would....certainly not Cleveland.

As long as NY is cool with not getting max value for trading their "superstar"....as that doesn't happen anyhow, then NY should get some bites, but I doubt Melo brings back a current AS level player. A decent pick, young bucks with potential, and some cap space, maybe throw in a former quality vet. But Melo makes a ton of money and only does one thing......the main problem is he's not at best in the middle of his prime, though some would argue he's on the latter half, and he's coming off back to back years with injuries with the shoulder and knee respectively. Five years ago.....Melo would net you a lot, NY knows this better than anyone.....now.....not so much, certainly not a caliber of Love.

Fact is that Lebron is basically a 4 at this point in his career. Kevin love can not play any position other than power forward, he doesn't have the perimeter skills to play outside consistently nor does he have the speed to defend the 3. Love can't defend the rim so he can't play the 5. Basically Kevin Love does not fit with lebron. Now what a healthy Melo gives is a guy who can switch from 3/4 depending on the lineup. He can defend small forwards when Cleveland plays lebron at the 4. Also cleveland's "window" isn't as large as people think. Lebron is 30 years old and has been in the league for 12 years and Kyrie's knees are a question mark. I believe that Melo going to the US olympic camp is partly trying to show lebron that he is healthy.

And what is the other part?

For himself, test out the knee make sure he feels comfortable playing against elite competition.

[NBA Fan 1234]

I would trade melo for love. Melo get's his shot at a ring and we get about 5 years younger. Love will excel next to a rim protectors like lopez and prozningis.

Assets my man....assets. Why would Cleveland trade Love for the reasons you give.....why would Cleveland get an older and slightly damaged scoring machine for a guy who we all know is capable of similar numbers, albeit much better rebounding? I'm sure you would trade Melo for Love, but no one else would....certainly not Cleveland.

As long as NY is cool with not getting max value for trading their "superstar"....as that doesn't happen anyhow, then NY should get some bites, but I doubt Melo brings back a current AS level player. A decent pick, young bucks with potential, and some cap space, maybe throw in a former quality vet. But Melo makes a ton of money and only does one thing......the main problem is he's not at best in the middle of his prime, though some would argue he's on the latter half, and he's coming off back to back years with injuries with the shoulder and knee respectively. Five years ago.....Melo would net you a lot, NY knows this better than anyone.....now.....not so much, certainly not a caliber of Love.

Fact is that Lebron is basically a 4 at this point in his career. Kevin love can not play any position other than power forward, he doesn't have the perimeter skills to play outside consistently nor does he have the speed to defend the 3. Love can't defend the rim so he can't play the 5. Basically Kevin Love does not fit with lebron. Now what a healthy Melo gives is a guy who can switch from 3/4 depending on the lineup. He can defend small forwards when Cleveland plays lebron at the 4. Also cleveland's "window" isn't as large as people think. Lebron is 30 years old and has been in the league for 12 years and Kyrie's knees are a question mark. I believe that Melo going to the US olympic camp is partly trying to show lebron that he is healthy.

LeBron is not a 4 - he's still a 3. Just because teams with him can go small does not make him a 4. Kevin Love has the outside shot to play outside, but he was used to playing the post and using the outside shot to create the inside looks -- not the other way around. In theory, he SHOULD fit next to LBJ - and this actually showed when the big 3 were healthy, as they were a 60 win paced team. And, even though he's not a good defender, having Mozzy behind everyone will help. Sure, Irving's knee is a question mark, but they now have Mo who can come in and fill the void - not to the full extent, but he can space the floor and play off ball very well.

You are reaching A LOT in your post. You know, Melo COULD just want to go to the Olympic camp because he wants to play in the Olympics...there's that (realistic) option, too.

[blanko]

Assets my man....assets. Why would Cleveland trade Love for the reasons you give.....why would Cleveland get an older and slightly damaged scoring machine for a guy who we all know is capable of similar numbers, albeit much better rebounding? I'm sure you would trade Melo for Love, but no one else would....certainly not Cleveland.

As long as NY is cool with not getting max value for trading their "superstar"....as that doesn't happen anyhow, then NY should get some bites, but I doubt Melo brings back a current AS level player. A decent pick, young bucks with potential, and some cap space, maybe throw in a former quality vet. But Melo makes a ton of money and only does one thing......the main problem is he's not at best in the middle of his prime, though some would argue he's on the latter half, and he's coming off back to back years with injuries with the shoulder and knee respectively. Five years ago.....Melo would net you a lot, NY knows this better than anyone.....now.....not so much, certainly not a caliber of Love.

Fact is that Lebron is basically a 4 at this point in his career. Kevin love can not play any position other than power forward, he doesn't have the perimeter skills to play outside consistently nor does he have the speed to defend the 3. Love can't defend the rim so he can't play the 5. Basically Kevin Love does not fit with lebron. Now what a healthy Melo gives is a guy who can switch from 3/4 depending on the lineup. He can defend small forwards when Cleveland plays lebron at the 4. Also cleveland's "window" isn't as large as people think. Lebron is 30 years old and has been in the league for 12 years and Kyrie's knees are a question mark. I believe that Melo going to the US olympic camp is partly trying to show lebron that he is healthy.

LeBron is not a 4 - he's still a 3. Just because teams with him can go small does not make him a 4. Kevin Love has the outside shot to play outside, but he was used to playing the post and using the outside shot to create the inside looks -- not the other way around. In theory, he SHOULD fit next to LBJ - and this actually showed when the big 3 were healthy, as they were a 60 win paced team. And, even though he's not a good defender, having Mozzy behind everyone will help. Sure, Irving's knee is a question mark, but they now have Mo who can come in and fill the void - not to the full extent, but he can space the floor and play off ball very well.

You are reaching A LOT in your post. You know, Melo COULD just want to go to the Olympic camp because he wants to play in the Olympics...there's that (realistic) option, too.

Lebron played alot of 4 in miami with Chish Bosh playing 5, especially in the playoffs. Kevin love has a outside shot, but he does not have a perimeter game (two different things). The most important thing is on defense. When lebron plays the 4, you need someone who can either guard the 3 or defend the rim. Love can't do either. Lebron went back to Cleveland in large part because of a healthy 23 year old all star that could be the next wayde for him. No he has a 23 year old with knee tendentious and coming off major surgery. As for Melo wanting to play in the Olympics, yea he may want to but i doubt it he has been to 3 olympics already. As i said, it was a part his reason, not the main reason.

[NBA Fan 1234]

Fact is that Lebron is basically a 4 at this point in his career. Kevin love can not play any position other than power forward, he doesn't have the perimeter skills to play outside consistently nor does he have the speed to defend the 3. Love can't defend the rim so he can't play the 5. Basically Kevin Love does not fit with lebron. Now what a healthy Melo gives is a guy who can switch from 3/4 depending on the lineup. He can defend small forwards when Cleveland plays lebron at the 4. Also cleveland's "window" isn't as large as people think. Lebron is 30 years old and has been in the league for 12 years and Kyrie's knees are a question mark. I believe that Melo going to the US olympic camp is partly trying to show lebron that he is healthy.

LeBron is not a 4 - he's still a 3. Just because teams with him can go small does not make him a 4. Kevin Love has the outside shot to play outside, but he was used to playing the post and using the outside shot to create the inside looks -- not the other way around. In theory, he SHOULD fit next to LBJ - and this actually showed when the big 3 were healthy, as they were a 60 win paced team. And, even though he's not a good defender, having Mozzy behind everyone will help. Sure, Irving's knee is a question mark, but they now have Mo who can come in and fill the void - not to the full extent, but he can space the floor and play off ball very well.

You are reaching A LOT in your post. You know, Melo COULD just want to go to the Olympic camp because he wants to play in the Olympics...there's that (realistic) option, too.

Lebron played alot of 4 in miami with Chish Bosh playing 5, especially in the playoffs. Kevin love has a outside shot, but he does not have a perimeter game (two different things). The most important thing is on defense. When lebron plays the 4, you need someone who can either guard the 3 or defend the rim. Love can't do either. Lebron went back to Cleveland in large part because of a healthy 23 year old all star that could be the next wayde for him. No he has a 23 year old with knee tendentious and coming off major surgery. As for Melo wanting to play in the Olympics, yea he may want to but i doubt it he has been to 3 olympics already. As i said, it was a part his reason, not the main reason.

Like I said, just because teams go small with him does not make him a 4. In Miami, he was leaving Battier to guarding most 4s. I also understand the difference between having a perimeter game and playing on the perimeter. I'm saying that Love's ability to space the floor and pass the ball from the perimeter makes him a good fit for LeBron.

LeBron plays the 3. He doesn't need a rim protector at the 4 because he has Mozgov anchoring the defense. Next year he will also have Varejao back who is a good defender at the 4 and 5.

Having a legit spot up shooter behind Irving is a great fall back option for LeBron if Irving does get hurt.

Also, going to 3 does not mean he doesn't want to go to another. They are all in different locations and the competition gets better and better.

You're reaching. Melo, a guy who has always wanted the spotlight, is going to want a trade to Cleveland? Mhm. I don't see it.

[GONYK]

LeBron is not a 4 - he's still a 3. Just because teams with him can go small does not make him a 4. Kevin Love has the outside shot to play outside, but he was used to playing the post and using the outside shot to create the inside looks -- not the other way around. In theory, he SHOULD fit next to LBJ - and this actually showed when the big 3 were healthy, as they were a 60 win paced team. And, even though he's not a good defender, having Mozzy behind everyone will help. Sure, Irving's knee is a question mark, but they now have Mo who can come in and fill the void - not to the full extent, but he can space the floor and play off ball very well.

You are reaching A LOT in your post. You know, Melo COULD just want to go to the Olympic camp because he wants to play in the Olympics...there's that (realistic) option, too.

Lebron played alot of 4 in miami with Chish Bosh playing 5, especially in the playoffs. Kevin love has a outside shot, but he does not have a perimeter game (two different things). The most important thing is on defense. When lebron plays the 4, you need someone who can either guard the 3 or defend the rim. Love can't do either. Lebron went back to Cleveland in large part because of a healthy 23 year old all star that could be the next wayde for him. No he has a 23 year old with knee tendentious and coming off major surgery. As for Melo wanting to play in the Olympics, yea he may want to but i doubt it he has been to 3 olympics already. As i said, it was a part his reason, not the main reason.

Like I said, just because teams go small with him does not make him a 4. In Miami, he was leaving Battier to guarding most 4s. I also understand the difference between having a perimeter game and playing on the perimeter. I'm saying that Love's ability to space the floor and pass the ball from the perimeter makes him a good fit for LeBron.

LeBron plays the 3. He doesn't need a rim protector at the 4 because he has Mozgov anchoring the defense. Next year he will also have Varejao back who is a good defender at the 4 and 5.

Having a legit spot up shooter behind Irving is a great fall back option for LeBron if Irving does get hurt.

Also, going to 3 does not mean he doesn't want to go to another. They are all in different locations and the competition gets better and better.

You're reaching. Melo, a guy who has always wanted the spotlight, is going to want a trade to Cleveland? Mhm. I don't see it.

Yea, I don't really see Melo as a ringchaser. Otherwise, he'd probably be in Houston or Chicago right now.

[Fat]

Guaranteed
-Carmelo Anthony (SF)
-Robin Lopez (C)
-Aaron Affalo (SG
-Jose Calderon (PG)
-Kristaps Porzingis (PF/C)
-Kyle Oquin (C)
-Jerian Grant (PG)
-Louis Amundson (C)
-Lance Thomas (PF)
-Cleanthony Early(SF)
-Derrick Williams (SF/PF)

Non-Guaranteed
-Langston Galloway (PG/SG)
-Sasha Vujacic? (SG)
-Wesley Saunders (SG)
-Darion Atkins (PF)

i think thats bout right so far, not sure if sasha is guaranteed or non

[Triple C]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/PelicansNBA/status/627237491997741056[/tweet]

How is he?

[blanko]

Speaking of Battier, let's look at his height weight: he is 6'8 220 lbs. The same build as Melo. What Lebron needs is a guy who has defensive versatility to play either the 4/5 or the 4/3. Kevin Love does not have that. Yes you are correct, for a power forward Love has range and a bit of a handle and can pass. He does not have true perimeter skills. No, if lebron only had mo Cleveland, he would have never went back. He went back to Cleveland because of Kyrie and the #1pick (that turned into love).

While melo used to want/may still want the spotlight, he doesn't have many options. The knicks are rebuilding and he is aging. If he goes west to say Houston, that's no sure thing considering how stacked the west is. Chicigao doesn't want him, he doesn't fit in ATL, Cleveland makes sense. Also, he can go for a 2 year run in cleveland for a chip then ask to get traded after they win/if they don't win. His salary becomes very tradable after 2016.

[NBA Fan 1234]

Speaking of Battier, let's look at his height weight: he is 6'8 220 lbs. The same build as Melo. What Lebron needs is a guy who has defensive versatility to play either the 4/5 or the 4/3. Kevin Love does not have that. Yes you are correct, for a power forward Love has range and a bit of a handle and can pass. He does not have true perimeter skills. No, if lebron only had mo Cleveland, he would have never went back. He went back to Cleveland because of Kyrie and the #1pick (that turned into love).

While melo used to want/may still want the spotlight, he doesn't have many options. The knicks are rebuilding and he is aging. If he goes west to say Houston, that's no sure thing considering how stacked the west is. Chicigao doesn't want him, he doesn't fit in ATL, Cleveland makes sense. Also, he can go for a 2 year run in cleveland for a chip then ask to get traded after they win/if they don't win. His salary becomes very tradable after 2016.

Love has range for ANY position and is an elite stretch 4. He also is one of the best passing big men. You're underselling. They were also on pace for 60+ wins when the big 3 were healthy.

Knicks are rebuilding according to who? Melo is not some old player on the downside of his career. Who says Chicago doesn't want him? They clearly wanted him last summer. Melo wants big market - this has been clear for a while. Cleveland is not that. There is no logic to him wanting Cleveland whatsoever aside from the championship thing - which is something that appears to have never been at the forefront of his mind, or he wouldn't have re-signed with us last summer.

Reach.

[blanko]

Speaking of Battier, let's look at his height weight: he is 6'8 220 lbs. The same build as Melo. What Lebron needs is a guy who has defensive versatility to play either the 4/5 or the 4/3. Kevin Love does not have that. Yes you are correct, for a power forward Love has range and a bit of a handle and can pass. He does not have true perimeter skills. No, if lebron only had mo Cleveland, he would have never went back. He went back to Cleveland because of Kyrie and the #1pick (that turned into love).

While melo used to want/may still want the spotlight, he doesn't have many options. The knicks are rebuilding and he is aging. If he goes west to say Houston, that's no sure thing considering how stacked the west is. Chicigao doesn't want him, he doesn't fit in ATL, Cleveland makes sense. Also, he can go for a 2 year run in cleveland for a chip then ask to get traded after they win/if they don't win. His salary becomes very tradable after 2016.

Love has range for ANY position and is an elite stretch 4. He also is one of the best passing big men. You're underselling.

Knicks are rebuilding according to who? Melo is not some old player on the downside of his career. Who says Chicago doesn't want him? They clearly wanted him last summer. Melo wants big market - this has been clear for a while. Cleveland is not that. There is no logic to him wanting Cleveland whatsoever aside from the championship thing - which is something that appears to have never been at the forefront of his mind, or he wouldn't have re-signed with us last summer.

Reach.

Having spot up range does not equal having perimeter skills and love is a good passer out the post, not a permitter passer. You opinion may be that I am underselling a guy that I think is a good fit for the knicks, but I am not.

According to whom are the knicks rebuilding? People with the sense to realize that our chances at a championship deteriorated with Amare's knees. Free agent's are not leaving their teams for an high tax area. That has been proven time after time. Melo will be wasting his last few years with the knicks because we won't be able to contend. Melo has his money but with the salary cap jumping by 40 mill or so in the next two years, his contract will be tradable. He stayed with NY because he wanted the most money, we gave it to him. If he goes to cleveland he can still have his money and make a run for a chip.

[NBA Fan 1234]

Speaking of Battier, let's look at his height weight: he is 6'8 220 lbs. The same build as Melo. What Lebron needs is a guy who has defensive versatility to play either the 4/5 or the 4/3. Kevin Love does not have that. Yes you are correct, for a power forward Love has range and a bit of a handle and can pass. He does not have true perimeter skills. No, if lebron only had mo Cleveland, he would have never went back. He went back to Cleveland because of Kyrie and the #1pick (that turned into love).

While melo used to want/may still want the spotlight, he doesn't have many options. The knicks are rebuilding and he is aging. If he goes west to say Houston, that's no sure thing considering how stacked the west is. Chicigao doesn't want him, he doesn't fit in ATL, Cleveland makes sense. Also, he can go for a 2 year run in cleveland for a chip then ask to get traded after they win/if they don't win. His salary becomes very tradable after 2016.

Love has range for ANY position and is an elite stretch 4. He also is one of the best passing big men. You're underselling.

Knicks are rebuilding according to who? Melo is not some old player on the downside of his career. Who says Chicago doesn't want him? They clearly wanted him last summer. Melo wants big market - this has been clear for a while. Cleveland is not that. There is no logic to him wanting Cleveland whatsoever aside from the championship thing - which is something that appears to have never been at the forefront of his mind, or he wouldn't have re-signed with us last summer.

Reach.

Having spot up range does not equal having perimeter skills and love is a good passer out the post, not a permitter passer. You opinion may be that I am underselling a guy that I think is a good fit for the knicks, but I am not.

According to whom are the knicks rebuilding? People with the sense to realize that our chances at a championship deteriorated with Amare's knees. Free agent's are not leaving their teams for an high tax area. That has been proven time after time. Melo will be wasting his last few years with the knicks because we won't be able to contend. Melo has his money but with the salary cap jumping by 40 mill or so in the next two years, his contract will be tradable. He stayed with NY because he wanted the most money, we gave it to him. If he goes to cleveland he can still have his money and make a run for a chip.

Again, I know the difference between having perimeter skills (being able to take players off dribble, create for others, etc) and being a great shooter and passer from the perimeter. Love might be a good fit for the Knicks (debatable), but my argument is that it doesn't matter because Melo wouldn't want to go to Cleveland based on his past.

We are signing guys who can help us win this year. That doesn't sound like a rebuilding team. We have no pick this upcoming season - doesn't sound like a rebuilding team. No rumors of Melo wanting out, us looking to trade players and get assets, or even the mention of us rebuilding.

You appear to not understand that Melo wants a big market and Cleveland is not one. You're right, the cap jumps...but that helps us just as much as any other team (if not more, because we already have a star here).

[Rasho Brezec]

Where's that quote in your sig from, Paco? That's terrifying.

[blanko]

a rebuilding team would have traded their lottery pick to get more help. No, we drafted a 20 year old. I believe in Taps, he won't be able to help us more than say an erik beadsoe. As for "big markets" for melo, if KD has proved anything it's that winning>market you play in for your "brand".

Yes the Cap is jumping, but look at the trend. Star players are not going to cities and states with high income tax, especially to leave their current team because their current team can pay the most. The only places a star player is willing to leave for is a place like texas/florida. A star player is not giving up more money and years to come to a place to pay higher taxes. That is why the cap jump doesn't really help us.

[NBA Fan 1234]

Where's that quote in your sig from, Paco? That's terrifying.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1402069#start_here

Of course this led into another thread after I locked this one, so I deleted that post...and then got a PM. Trust me, there was more just as bad.