Fisher's/Knicks 4th quarter woes.

[Houstonrox]

Sorry, but this argument that he is building player confidence by playing everyone is probably the worst excuse I've ever heard. Players will be confident if we CLOSE OUT TEAMS and WIN. There is no better confidence builder than winning games. I don't see how putting someone in for 2 minutes and disrupting all flow is any sort of confidence builder. I usually do not complain about coaching but these rotations need to stop. We are NOT that deep of a team to be playing 13 players a game. We are not even a playoff team until proven otherwise. Shorten our rotations and let the players learn to play with each other already.

[HEZI]

Sorry, but this argument that he is building player confidence by playing everyone is probably the worst excuse I've ever heard. Players will be confident if we CLOSE OUT TEAMS and WIN. There is no better confidence builder than winning games. I don't see how putting someone in for 2 minutes and disrupting all flow is any sort of confidence builder. I usually do not complain about coaching but these rotations need to stop. We are NOT that deep of a team to be playing 13 players a game. We are not even a playoff team until proven otherwise. Shorten our rotations and let the players learn to play with each other already.

You just contradicted your entire argument with that last line

Thats exactly what Fisher is doing, letting players play with each other. Everybody is getting their chance to make an impact on the team. Thats what a team is. Like you said,we are not deep and not that talented to be depending on a couple guys to take us where we want to be. To get to where we want to be, it is going to take an entire team effort. You never know what the season holds, what situations the team will be in, guys need to be ready to step up when their time comes. The earlier the better. Confidence doesnt start by winning, confidence starts with opportunity within the organization. When guys feel like they bring true value to a team, it elevates them individually.

[Houstonrox]

Sorry, but this argument that he is building player confidence by playing everyone is probably the worst excuse I've ever heard. Players will be confident if we CLOSE OUT TEAMS and WIN. There is no better confidence builder than winning games. I don't see how putting someone in for 2 minutes and disrupting all flow is any sort of confidence builder. I usually do not complain about coaching but these rotations need to stop. We are NOT that deep of a team to be playing 13 players a game. We are not even a playoff team until proven otherwise. Shorten our rotations and let the players learn to play with each other already.

You just contradicted your entire argument with that last line

Thats exactly what Fisher is doing, letting players play with each other. Everybody is getting their chance to make an impact on the team. Thats what a team is. Like you said,we are not deep and not that talented to be depending on a couple guys to take us where we want to be. To get to where we want to be, it is going to take an entire team effort. You never know what the season holds, what situations the team will be in, guys need to be ready to step up when their time comes. The earlier the better. Confidence doesnt start by winning, confidence starts with opportunity within the organization. When guys feel like they bring true value to a team, it elevates them individually.

Sorry, what? How did I contradict my entire argument by saying he should shorten his rotations and let the players learn to play with each other. Players aren't learning when they are thrown into different rotations each game. There is no consistency. Fisher should be playing 9 - 10 players max with maybe 2 different lineups to end the game depending on matchups. However, the lineup to end each game right now is a crapshoot. The only person that is a guarantee to play at the end is Melo. No wonder we all look at him to bail us out each game.

[HEZI]

Sorry, what? How did I contradict my entire argument by saying he should shorten his rotations and let the players learn to play with each other. Players aren't learning when they are thrown into different rotations each game. There is no consistency. Fisher should be playing 9 - 10 players max with maybe 2 different lineups to end the game depending on matchups. However, the lineup to end each game right now is a crapshoot. The only person that is a guarantee to play at the end is Melo. No wonder we all look at him to bail us out each game.

You seem to be answering your own questions but dont even realize it. Like you said< Melo is the only one guaranteed to play at the end because we know what Melo brings and what his role is on the team. Most of the other guys are still figuring out their role. Fisher is giving guys an opportunity to go out there and define their roles. You dont just completely reconstruct the entire roster in one summer and develop a defined role and rotation for everybody by game 12 of the season. That doesnt even happen in 2k lol

[Thugger HBC]

I really havent seen a coach use his entire rotation in non blowout games, but in this case it might make a small amount of sense.

This squad is primarily roleplayer, there might never be an actual "rotation" with this group. Each piece currently just needs to contribute, and it's clear each piece is being given the chance to do so, and in most cases each player has responded in some form to helping the team be competitive. So yeah it's odd to see 12-13 players being awarded time, I'd personally like to see that awarded time be awarded differently. Core+hot hands, then minutes to reserves to keep the former fresh to close.

Simple stuff.

[Moose]

I suppose you can say that some of Fisher's issues can be fixed with experience and removing his head from his ass.

The fact that he has gotten Seraphin to pass the damn ball out of the post and went ahead to give big and important minutes to a very very young overseas rookie (and letting him start from day 1) is at least somewhat promising.

He definitely likes guys that stick within the scheme, as he should, but I think it has led to favorites and a bloated rotation. I hope O'Quinn gets himself out of the dog house. And it would be nice to see Williams contribute something positive.

[Mr_Perfect]

Fisher's subs have no rhyme or reason to them and do not come within the flow of the game. They are just made to be made.

What is the purpose of bringing in a Sasha for 2 minutes for example? Nobody is gaining chemistry or learning how to play together for 2-5 minutes per game. The notion that this is the purpose of his 13 man rotation is ludicrous. The guy tries to mix and max and over-coaches when he doesn't really know how to coach at all. Keep defending him - you won't be when he's losing us games more often than winning them.

This team has potential to get to 40 wins but with Fisher I can see more like 25 right now. The signs aren't good - especially in the 4th.

[GONYK]

I suppose you can say that some of Fisher's issues can be fixed with experience and removing his head from his ass.

The fact that he has gotten Seraphin to pass the damn ball out of the post and went ahead to give big and important minutes to a very very young overseas rookie (and letting him start from day 1) is at least somewhat promising.

He definitely likes guys that stick within the scheme, as he should, but I think it has led to favorites and a bloated rotation. I hope O'Quinn gets himself out of the dog house. And it would be nice to see Williams contribute something positive.

KOQ isn't in the doghouse people. The matchups just haven't favored him the last 2 games.

Was Lopez in the doghouse against NOP, and then miraculously not against the Hornets?

[Capn'O]

I think im starting to figure out what fisher is doing.

I think he's trying to manufacture situations. And he's putting guys in the game that struggle in those situations. To give them a chance to bust through.

Lets say we have a lead and some momentum. He's going to take out key players in that run. And he's going to put other players in that situation. To give them a chance to continue that momentum.

If we have a good lead, he's going to take out players who are playing well, and replace them with player who struggle scoring the ball. Put them in a situation to hold a lead. With defense, with taking and making good shots. If we start to lose that lead, it creates a new situation. So lets see if the guys who were in the game during a run, can come in with that same energy from that run. And help these guys catch on.

If things get a little out of hand, we go to an ace or two. Put them in with struggling players, let those aces try to create a better situation. So those who are struggling can be a part of it.

If we are down, we go to guys who run and play freely. Put them in a situation where they are free to play, free to run, and try to close the gap. Then go to the aces to take back control.

In late game situations, we try to be in a place thats comfortable. Where the game is within reach. Once we get there, we are going to go with guys who dont have experience in that situation. Try to give them a chance to make a key play. Or be a part of it.

Everyone get to be a part of this because its early in the season. In fishers mind, we can afford to drop some game because at this point, the experience of being in a particular situation is more important than winning. Guys are learning how to behave in situations. Experiencing what its like to be on a run. What its like to be behind. To make a come back. To hold a lead.

If what im seeing is correct, there should be phases to this strategy. Early in the season, its about experience. Everyone gets a chance. Midway through, its time to tighten up a little. Some players are going to have to begin sacrificing for the better of the team. Because right now its more important we win. At the end of the season winning will be critical. Certain guys might not play at all. Because at that point individual PT and roles are trumped by team success. But be ready at all times because we might need you. And you have already proven you can get the job done.

Its just a theory but to me it makes sense and I truly believe thats whats going on. And why we are seeing what we are seeing. There might actually be a method to this madness. If so, as the season goes on, we should start seeing things gradually tighten up. As guys have already gotten the necessary experience, the "confidence" as fisher calls it. The priorities will begin to shift.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see if this is whats going on.

I was just going to type up almost exactly this but you beat me to it and did a bang up job. These are Phil tricks he is playing. He knows damn right how to ride a hot hand. Any a$$hole can do that. But he's trying to build the team's Robert Horrys and... Derek Fishers.

He also has his choir boys that set the example in Lance/Sasha/Lou. These guys are sacrificial lambs in a sense. They're not going to see much time later on but they know how to run the offense and they always hustle on D. Look at how Seraphin's game has changed recently, and he's all of a sudden a big part of it.


O'Quinn is a long term project for him, imo. He's a guy that's most of the way there and can take the benchings and extra instructions... the whipping boy for now... but I think they have a special role in mind for him ultimately.

[Capn'O]

#TeamFish

[Knicksfan20]

All you need to know about Fisher is that last night we had not scored for 4 and a half minutes so what does he do? He takes out the teams leading scorer in the game for kevin seraphin.

Anyone who is a Fisher apologist after that meeds to gtfo.

Then KP comes back in, gets fouled, then scores 2 clutch free throws with MVP chants in his face.

[AmazingJason]

I suppose you can say that some of Fisher's issues can be fixed with experience and removing his head from his ass.

The fact that he has gotten Seraphin to pass the damn ball out of the post and went ahead to give big and important minutes to a very very young overseas rookie (and letting him start from day 1) is at least somewhat promising.

He definitely likes guys that stick within the scheme, as he should, but I think it has led to favorites and a bloated rotation. I hope O'Quinn gets himself out of the dog house. And it would be nice to see Williams contribute something positive.

KOQ isn't in the doghouse people. The matchups just haven't favored him the last 2 games.

Was Lopez in the doghouse against NOP, and then miraculously not against the Hornets?

Isn't KOQ a Seraphin that can defend, rebound, block shots and hit from the perimeter?

[god shammgod]

#TeamFish

now you've gone too far

[AmazingJason]

Sort of. If there is a Pro-Fisher camp it is not exactly based on emphatic assertions about what he is doing well specifically. It really is more of a general gestalt that since things are generally moving in the right direction then Fisher deserves every chance to succeed. That is quite different than supporting him because you can state what he does well.

Those who have been critical have much more to go on at this point.

Maybe that will shift over time.

But even critical ones like myself will have to sit back and let it play out because he is here and not going anywhere anytime soon.

This doesn't really add up. We're all going on the same exact thing - the games that have been played. Naysayers are just harping on the rotations and timeouts or lack thereof, and the 6 games in 12 that it supposedly cost us. And for me personally - being that I support Fisher 100% and like him more and more by the day - I'm harping on the 6 WINS in 12 games, the marked improvement that it is from last season, the comradery the team has shown, the effort the team has played with, the execution the team has improved on game by game, and the 12 games out of 12 that have been competitive and within the Knicks' reach of winning (not interested in arguing about whether or not we could be 7-5 or 8-4 if not for Fisher). Oh, and the performance of our rookie, made possible by the support system he has with the Knicks, and the opportunities he's been given to shine. All of these things pointing to a job well-done by the coaching staff before the season even started.

I'm also putting quite a bit of stock into the hard evidence that Fisher is purposely tinkering with the lineups with a long-term vision in mind, rather than tinkering with them out of boredom or stupidity. Phil Jackson has a history of doing this with his teams, Melo eluded to the fact that Fisher is trying to keep everyone on their toes in his postgame yesterday, and if you go to the later parts of this presser with Fish, he outright addresses the issue about the rotations more than once and had plenty of great answers --

http://www.nba.com/knicks/video/teams/knicks/2015/11/18/dropbox_nyk_fisher_111715_MSGI_2528k_1280w.mp4-122821

He clearly states that he and the team are focused on becoming a team first, before they tackle the rest of their goals. They are going through a process, and it's his process. He owns it at the coach. And IMO, we owe it to him to give him his freedom to operate for the time being. When I listen to him talk, I see and hear a man with conviction, who truly believes in and promotes team work as well as hard work, and who really, really likes his team. Fisher knows something is brewing. He's stirring the pot, and he's confident in the job he's doing. I can see it in his eyes. He can't wait to prove people wrong.

I believe you want to have that conviction about Fisher, but it is still built mostly on assumptions on your part. I did say I'll be content to let it play out. This is still a rebounding season while I believe we can be in the playoffs, so my wishes fall somewhere between achieving up to the level of our talent while allowing for some experimentation without getting any bent out of shape any longer.

Look, Fisher is smart enough to figure something out. I'm banking on it and I'm not planning on his demise which would be foolhardy. I would still like him replaced, but it isn't going to happen so I'll stop talking about it. I don't buy much about Fisher being a good choice, but that does not mean he can't become competent. If he is not by season's end, I'd want him fired then. Until then there really is nothing more to say. I'll wait it out and hope for the best.

If we're above .500 at the ASB, I'll start the Fisher NBA Coach of the Year Poll

[Houstonrox]

Sorry, what? How did I contradict my entire argument by saying he should shorten his rotations and let the players learn to play with each other. Players aren't learning when they are thrown into different rotations each game. There is no consistency. Fisher should be playing 9 - 10 players max with maybe 2 different lineups to end the game depending on matchups. However, the lineup to end each game right now is a crapshoot. The only person that is a guarantee to play at the end is Melo. No wonder we all look at him to bail us out each game.

You seem to be answering your own questions but dont even realize it. Like you said< Melo is the only one guaranteed to play at the end because we know what Melo brings and what his role is on the team. Most of the other guys are still figuring out their role. Fisher is giving guys an opportunity to go out there and define their roles. You dont just completely reconstruct the entire roster in one summer and develop a defined role and rotation for everybody by game 12 of the season. That doesnt even happen in 2k lol

I think our views of how players learn are different in our arguments. You are saying the more players we play the more they learn whereas I actually think it's counteractive to us learning. I feel 9-10 players max rotation will allow our guys to play with a lot more continuity and develop the chemistry that is crucial to help us win. Having players in a game for 5 minutes (non garbage time) hinders the overall learning process. There is no point putting cold players in a game for 2-3 minutes then take them out for another cold player. The rotations seemed a lot better in the preseason. At least we knew who the 2nd unit was in most cases and they were our "speed" unit. Now there is no pattern to the substitution.

[E-Balla]

Fisher's subs have no rhyme or reason to them and do not come within the flow of the game. They are just made to be made.

What is the purpose of bringing in a Sasha for 2 minutes for example? Nobody is gaining chemistry or learning how to play together for 2-5 minutes per game. The notion that this is the purpose of his 13 man rotation is ludicrous. The guy tries to mix and max and over-coaches when he doesn't really know how to coach at all. Keep defending him - you won't be when he's losing us games more often than winning them.

This team has potential to get to 40 wins but with Fisher I can see more like 25 right now. The signs aren't good - especially in the 4th.

Exactly. Disagree on your win totals (I think Fish's game prep has them playing like a 45 win team but his coaching will land us between 30-35) but the overall sentiment is perfect. All this blind loyalty towards a coach isn't cool.

Reminds me of what happened to my next favorite team the Eagles and Chip Kelly gutting the team to hire all of his ex Oregon guys and Sam Bradford. I still remember the idiots calling us contenders when this dolt dropped all of our offensive talent, half of our offensive line (no replacements), and cornerbacks. Now we're 4-5 and looking at missing the playoffs. TALENT IS KING IN PROFESSIONAL SPORTS LEAGUES. Football might be the most coaching dependent sport but you still need talent to coach and you need to put them in situations to succeed. Fish constantly changing rotations, benching guys in hot situations, etc. is losing us games and making our wins way closer than they should be.

This BS about him having us ready for the playoffs only works if we actually make it or stay in the hunt and with him throwing 3-4 games already I don't think that will happen. Y'all might as well be thinking he's interviewing with Toronto. Makes more sense than that whole masterplan of treating the regular season like the preseason and throwing games when he actually had a preseason lineup that was consistent compared to what we have now.

Also I've seen some people talking about the bench not performing recently. The bench stopped performing well after he started micromanaging rotations. Not before.

Personally I think he sees Bud, Pop and Kerr play loose rotations and get praise so he thinks that's how you coach well. Yes I think he's that dumb because thinking he's purposely throwing games to help the team build confidence (when losses make you lose confidence fast) is absurd IMO.

[13ringsruling]

pmfjb did a lot of the same things
pmfjb
trust the process

[HEZI]

I think our views of how players learn are different in our arguments. You are saying the more players we play the more they learn whereas I actually think it's counteractive to us learning. I feel 9-10 players max rotation will allow our guys to play with a lot more continuity and develop the chemistry that is crucial to help us win. Having players in a game for 5 minutes (non garbage time) hinders the overall learning process. There is no point putting cold players in a game for 2-3 minutes then take them out for another cold player. The rotations seemed a lot better in the preseason. At least we knew who the 2nd unit was in most cases and they were our "speed" unit. Now there is no pattern to the substitution.

Since its a Phil Jackson way of coaching, having the success of Phil you have to examine the strategy deeper. There are different ways that coaches coach, so there is no right or wrong answer. The one thing we can analyze is success rate. Does it work? Evidence suggests it does.

Here's why, because each game is a different opponent and players go through slumps and stretches and its a brutal long season. A set rotation makes guys too comfortable and drains out motivation night in and night out. Its why you see a lot of guys underperform, get lazy, lose drive, lose focus, etc. What Fisher is doing is increasing the value of minutes. He is sending a message to his guys that hey, even if you get 2 minutes, make value of it because time will come when you will need to give me 20 minutes, can I count on you? If guys are not able to produce big in 2 minutes, why should they be awarded more? This keeps guys on the edge, motivated, focused and brings out the best in a true competitor. Remember what Fisher kept saying all summer, we want competitors, we want competitors, we want competitors. Well this is why. He wants guys to really compete. Each time they hit the floor, he wants effort. The chemistry thing will come in time. As they practice more and are put in different situations in games, they will learn more about each other. The one thing that will not be tolerated, however, is lack of effort. It is hard to get quality effort in the league from professional athletes, too many egos and distractions.

I say let Fisher do his thing, the rotation will tighten up as the season goes on, but for right now I say we give it time to develop, it has me intrigued so far. I am not too worried about a couple games slipping away at this stage in the season, I will have to wait and see how the season develops in order to get the clear understanding. So far, I love the competitive spirit of the team and the good character personalities it consists of. There is an overpowering concept of TEAM this year that has me feeling good about the direction the Knicks are heading.

[isiah_thomas]

Fisher plays way to many players. Why is Sasha Vujabrick still even touching the court?? He keeps lineups out there to long that blow any decent lead the team can build up and he ices players if they are hot. If a player is rolling keep them in the game. In crunch time the team has no plays and it shows up in every close game. The improvement he talks about in his post games seem to show up all the time the next game so it doesn't look like he's learning anything either. Right now Fish is a really bad NBA coach

[matchman]

I would suggest we may review the situation again at around all-star week, then we should know better if this is really a coaching issue or an experiment.