Wiretap: NBA Sends Memo To Teams Projecting $92M Cap For 2016 Offseason. Batum and Conley max deals...

[CJackson]

are you seriously asking why we should even bother to compete when teams are better than us?

I'm asking why bother to make moves that don't make you a contender and impede the development of the cornerstone of your franchise? The idea is not just to put a band aid on something and be ok for a year or 2. The idea is to build a foundation so that you can have sustained success like the San Antonio's of the world. You don't do that by blowing your wad on players you'll get 1 or 2 good years out of while you win nothing AND who also will take valuable touches away from your young star who is the future of the franchise.

so being the 2nd or 1st in the East doesn't make you a contender now?

Gasol
KP
Melo
Batum
Conley

if that team is healthy it can scare anyone and if the other team isn't fully healthy, like Clev wasn't last year in the finals, then they could win

people are blind to the value of winning around here these days and over enamored with draft picks

and how the hell does adding talent "impede the development of our corner stone"

were counting touches? You don't understand how much better a guy develops on a winning team? You don't see how much room KP's game has to grow if he's not asked to shoulder the full offense on a crap team every night?


come on

that makes you dog food for the best teams in the playoffs is what it does. advancing in your conference because there are still no great teams in the east doesnt make you a contender. the only thing that matters to some of us is building a team that will one day be looked at as having a legit shot at being a GS or a SA or whatever teams are that level 3-5 years from now. anything less is bs and a waste of time for a fan like me and some others. and that is the divide in fan bases usually anyway and is not something only knicks

anyway that roster would fall apart pretty quickly when 3 out of 5 will miss games due to age or more injuries. and that is just for winning now. forget about that being a core that goes beyond a year or two. thats some broken down horse stuff right there and i hate seeing tying up a cap on that kind of roster. it will win nothing in the present and it will sabotage the future

conley and pau are awol as of now so pegging them as starters is only a leap of faith anyway. they could be able to play or not and you dont know

[dakomish23]

Why bother with that though? Golden State or San Antonio (let's be honest it's going to be one of them every year for the foreseeable future) destroy that team if it can even get past Cleveland to a finals. I like Batum. Conley and Horford are both too old and not good enough for the insane money they'll command. Marc is in decline. Melo is in decline. That team is not winning anything but maybe an ECF and worst of all some of those guys are taking away touches from KP and impeding his development. We have to accept that we're stuck with Melo. That's a given. What we need is an adequate pg. Even adequate pg play would greatly help our franchise player continue his development. The most important thing we can do is acquire young pieces who can grow with and compliment KP. If Rolo is getting traded for anything it needs to a first round pick for a young player who they think can be here for a decade. Otherwise, keep him he's insanely cheap relative to his production and that will only continue to be the case. We don't need to try to make a quick fix that ultimately leads to nothing. KP is the future. We have no present. Everything needs to be geared towards putting young pieces around him so that he can contend in 3-4 years. He should be the centerpiece of whatever our plans are rather than adding players who will cost tons of money and decline 2 years into their deals.

are you seriously asking why we should even bother to compete when teams are better than us?

I'm asking why bother to make moves that don't make you a contender and impede the development of the cornerstone of your franchise? The idea is not just to put a band aid on something and be ok for a year or 2. The idea is to build a foundation so that you can have sustained success like the San Antonio's of the world. You don't do that by blowing your wad on players you'll get 1 or 2 good years out of while you win nothing AND who also will take valuable touches away from your young star who is the future of the franchise.

You mean the foundation for success SAC & CHA had with all their draft picks? Or what MIN had before Towns?

You'd think after all these lottery picks SAC or CHA would of gotten a good enough player to star alongside Boogie and Kemba. Nope.

Be careful what you wish for. No method is remotely consistent with building a winner or everyone would do it.

[Mr_Perfect]

are you seriously asking why we should even bother to compete when teams are better than us?

I'm asking why bother to make moves that don't make you a contender and impede the development of the cornerstone of your franchise? The idea is not just to put a band aid on something and be ok for a year or 2. The idea is to build a foundation so that you can have sustained success like the San Antonio's of the world. You don't do that by blowing your wad on players you'll get 1 or 2 good years out of while you win nothing AND who also will take valuable touches away from your young star who is the future of the franchise.

You mean the foundation for success SAC & CHA had with all their draft picks? Or what MIN had before Towns?

You'd think after all these lottery picks SAC or CHA would of gotten a good enough player to star alongside Boogie and Kemba. Nope.

Be careful what you wish for. No method is remotely consistent with building a winner or everyone would do it.

You're using 2 of the worst run organizations as an example of how building through the draft doesn't work.

Why not use San Antonio then? Does that hurt your argument?

Michael Jordan is a notoriously terrible draft - Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, etc.

And the Kings are the Kings. Stauskas!

[dakomish23]

I'm asking why bother to make moves that don't make you a contender and impede the development of the cornerstone of your franchise? The idea is not just to put a band aid on something and be ok for a year or 2. The idea is to build a foundation so that you can have sustained success like the San Antonio's of the world. You don't do that by blowing your wad on players you'll get 1 or 2 good years out of while you win nothing AND who also will take valuable touches away from your young star who is the future of the franchise.

You mean the foundation for success SAC & CHA had with all their draft picks? Or what MIN had before Towns?

You'd think after all these lottery picks SAC or CHA would of gotten a good enough player to star alongside Boogie and Kemba. Nope.

Be careful what you wish for. No method is remotely consistent with building a winner or everyone would do it.

You're using 2 of the worst run organizations as an example of how building through the draft doesn't work.

Why not use San Antonio then? Does that hurt your argument?

Michael Jordan is a notoriously terrible draft - Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, etc.

And the Kings are the Kings. Stauskas!

I'm just making sure both sides are seen. I'm fine with tanking next year. Not because I assume we'll find another player of KP's potential. That's not realistic. We need so many things that having a potentially good player on a rookie deal will go a long way. I'm captain of the roll it over squad if we can't get any big fish in FA. I want no prt of the mediocre FAs.

If I told ppl CHA was trading a mid lottery pick and a late first for Batum after the year he had and Courtney Lee, everyone would lose their mind. "Lottery pick and first round pick for Batum and Lee holy crap PJax is asleep at the wheel these guys are giving out picks for garbage dump everyone blah blah blah". Now I replace those picks with Noah Vonleh and PJ Hairston. Same response?

What we did with one pick, PHI is still trying to do. So is ORL. People here want to tank for the next 5 years and assume we'll create some sort of super team. It's not realistic. You don't just become bad and suddenly become good by spending X number of years in the lottery. We got lucky. It shouldn't be seen as a formula.

Btw - SAS tanked 1 year and haven't since.

[NYKnicksTAPE]

I haven't seen anybody say that they want to tank for 5 years...more like the next 1-2 years

[CJackson]

I haven't seen anybody say that they want to tank for 5 years...more like the next 1-2 years

1 year. thats all thats needed if the team trades and loads up on picks. 1-2 could happen if they trade off lopez and melo for picks and dont commit to big deals but in reality i bet most fans who support tanking only think of it as 1 crap year and then maybe year 2 is the climb back up even if still not being a playoff team. in 2018 this could be a very young and entertaining club again if they play the cards right. thats year 2 but a very different vibe and one full of hope

[reub]

Sign Whiteside and Tyler Johnson and forget the tank. Who says no?

[NYKnicksTAPE]

I haven't seen anybody say that they want to tank for 5 years...more like the next 1-2 years

1 year. thats all thats needed if the team trades and loads up on picks. 1-2 could happen if they trade off lopez and melo for picks and dont commit to big deals but in reality i bet most fans who support tanking only think of it as 1 crap year and then maybe year 2 is the climb back up even if still not being a playoff team. in 2018 this could be a very young and entertaining club again if they play the cards right. thats year 2 but a very different vibe and one full of hope

Tank for a top pick in the 2017 draft in order to get an elite wing or PG prospect to go along with KP (there looks to be many of them in next year's draft). That should be your main core going forward. Look to develop them and build around them with other young pieces with some potential. Keep a vet or 2 around to show them the ropes. After 2017, then u start looking for improvement each season while building a team around your new, young core that can hopefully have a sustained period of contention.

[CJackson]

I haven't seen anybody say that they want to tank for 5 years...more like the next 1-2 years

1 year. thats all thats needed if the team trades and loads up on picks. 1-2 could happen if they trade off lopez and melo for picks and dont commit to big deals but in reality i bet most fans who support tanking only think of it as 1 crap year and then maybe year 2 is the climb back up even if still not being a playoff team. in 2018 this could be a very young and entertaining club again if they play the cards right. thats year 2 but a very different vibe and one full of hope

Tank for a top pick in the 2017 draft in order to get an elite wing or PG prospect to go along with KP (there looks to be many of them in next year's draft). That should be your main core going forward. Look to develop them and build around them with other young pieces with some potential. Keep a vet or 2 around to show them the ropes. After 2017, then u start looking for improvement each season while building a team around your new, young core that can hopefully have a sustained period of contention.

yes. did i say yes? yes

and that will leave cap room handy for when adding the biggest fish in a free agent class will really put you into contention. thats how you do free agency. you build the core the hard way then add somebody special by free agency. the knicks way has been think you could buy your core in free agency. you cant. never will. and no contender status will ever result that way

[NoLayupRule]

I'm asking why bother to make moves that don't make you a contender and impede the development of the cornerstone of your franchise? The idea is not just to put a band aid on something and be ok for a year or 2. The idea is to build a foundation so that you can have sustained success like the San Antonio's of the world. You don't do that by blowing your wad on players you'll get 1 or 2 good years out of while you win nothing AND who also will take valuable touches away from your young star who is the future of the franchise.

so being the 2nd or 1st in the East doesn't make you a contender now?

Gasol
KP
Melo
Batum
Conley

if that team is healthy it can scare anyone and if the other team isn't fully healthy, like Clev wasn't last year in the finals, then they could win

people are blind to the value of winning around here these days and over enamored with draft picks

and how the hell does adding talent "impede the development of our corner stone"

were counting touches? You don't understand how much better a guy develops on a winning team? You don't see how much room KP's game has to grow if he's not asked to shoulder the full offense on a crap team every night?


come on

How is that team possible? We only have one max slot.

its not really but I got to it with the suggestion that Mem might be willing to blow things up if Conley threatened to leave

So they would sign and trade us Conley with Gasol for Lopez, KOQ and perhaps Grant or something in order to get out from under the Gasol contract

whatever

it was a fantasy that lead to a suggestion that we shouldn't even compete but just tank forever

[NoLayupRule]

I'm asking why bother to make moves that don't make you a contender and impede the development of the cornerstone of your franchise? The idea is not just to put a band aid on something and be ok for a year or 2. The idea is to build a foundation so that you can have sustained success like the San Antonio's of the world. You don't do that by blowing your wad on players you'll get 1 or 2 good years out of while you win nothing AND who also will take valuable touches away from your young star who is the future of the franchise.

You mean the foundation for success SAC & CHA had with all their draft picks? Or what MIN had before Towns?

You'd think after all these lottery picks SAC or CHA would of gotten a good enough player to star alongside Boogie and Kemba. Nope.

Be careful what you wish for. No method is remotely consistent with building a winner or everyone would do it.

You're using 2 of the worst run organizations as an example of how building through the draft doesn't work.

Why not use San Antonio then? Does that hurt your argument?

Michael Jordan is a notoriously terrible draft - Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, etc.

And the Kings are the Kings. Stauskas!

SA is a terrible example of an organization tanking

they had 1 tank season back in 1996 and landed Duncan and have been a contender ever since

the same year Boston tanked for the same reason and didn't sniff a playoff run for years after


tanking doenst equal success except once in a great while - Duncan, Wade, LeBron. Thats about it for tanks that worked out for the tanking team getting a title or finals run.

Golden State, for example, never tanked. They were just bad for a while and got super super lucky and then managed super super well

[King of Canada]

You mean the foundation for success SAC & CHA had with all their draft picks? Or what MIN had before Towns?

You'd think after all these lottery picks SAC or CHA would of gotten a good enough player to star alongside Boogie and Kemba. Nope.

Be careful what you wish for. No method is remotely consistent with building a winner or everyone would do it.

You're using 2 of the worst run organizations as an example of how building through the draft doesn't work.

Why not use San Antonio then? Does that hurt your argument?

Michael Jordan is a notoriously terrible draft - Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, etc.

And the Kings are the Kings. Stauskas!

SA is a terrible example of an organization tanking

they had 1 tank season back in 1996 and landed Duncan and have been a contender ever since

the same year Boston tanked for the same reason and didn't sniff a playoff run for years after


tanking doenst equal success except once in a great while - Duncan, Wade, LeBron. Thats about it for tanks that worked out for the tanking team getting a title or finals run.

Golden State, for example, never tanked. They were just bad for a while and got super super lucky and then managed super super well

The Spurs were a complete one off. Robinson broke his leg and they went from a team that went deep into the playoffs to winning 20 games, drafting Duncan, and then being a playoff team again winning it all shortly after.

[dakomish23]

I haven't seen anybody say that they want to tank for 5 years...more like the next 1-2 years

I'm in for one more tank if we strike out. Worst place we can be is a 40 win team via signing mediocre vets that still doesn't make the playoffs and is too good to be out of the top of the draft.

But I bet that's what happens.

What are you gonna do when our next pick is not a stud or even close to it? Do it again? What happens when that next guy is mediocre? Do it again? What happens after that?

[NYKnicksTAPE]

I haven't seen anybody say that they want to tank for 5 years...more like the next 1-2 years

I'm in for one more tank if we strike out. Worst place we can be is a 40 win team via signing mediocre vets that still doesn't make the playoffs and is too good to be out of the top of the draft.

But I bet that's what happens.

What are you gonna do when our next pick is not a stud or even close to it? Do it again? What happens when that next guy is mediocre? Do it again? What happens after that?

I'm also afraid that we end up as a 40 win team and the 9th seed next season...that would be a disaster.

What if our next pick actually is a stud? Then we're set. Y'all can keep saying that we're gonna draft busts or mediocre players, but I trust our scouts.

What if our offseason is mediocre? What if we don't attract a star in 2017 FA? Then we're on the treadmill to nowhere. What happens after we still don't have a top player on the roster? Then we start tanking while having already missed out on a top pick in the 2017 draft which is supposed to be one of the strongest in a while?

[CJackson]

I haven't seen anybody say that they want to tank for 5 years...more like the next 1-2 years

I'm in for one more tank if we strike out. Worst place we can be is a 40 win team via signing mediocre vets that still doesn't make the playoffs and is too good to be out of the top of the draft.

But I bet that's what happens.

What are you gonna do when our next pick is not a stud or even close to it? Do it again? What happens when that next guy is mediocre? Do it again? What happens after that?

no guarantees in a draft but you are guaranteed to be on the mediocre treadmill the other way. it is like the guy on his deathbed wishing he should have quit his job and started his own company. you got to take chances to win the ring. why do you want assurances a pick will go well anyway? you know it is a risk but fortune is for the bold

[Fat Kat]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/hpbasketball/status/723176233127661568[/tweet]

[dakomish23]

I haven't seen anybody say that they want to tank for 5 years...more like the next 1-2 years

I'm in for one more tank if we strike out. Worst place we can be is a 40 win team via signing mediocre vets that still doesn't make the playoffs and is too good to be out of the top of the draft.

But I bet that's what happens.

What are you gonna do when our next pick is not a stud or even close to it? Do it again? What happens when that next guy is mediocre? Do it again? What happens after that?

I'm also afraid that we end up as a 40 win team and the 9th seed next season...that would be a disaster.

What if our next pick actually is a stud? Then we're set. Y'all can keep saying that we're gonna draft busts or mediocre players, but I trust our scouts.

What if our offseason is mediocre? What if we don't attract a star in 2017 FA? Then we're on the treadmill to nowhere. What happens after we still don't have a top player on the roster? Then we start tanking while having already missed out on a top pick in the 2017 draft which is supposed to be one of the strongest in a while?

We're on the same page about the 2017 tank. I just don't think we can assume the tanking to find a 2nd young stud to build around will only take a year or two. It may take a while than the 1-2 years, if we are even able to do it. A major plus for tanking is if you do land a stud like KP, he far outplays his contract and you can spend your money elsewhere. This may take 3-4 years and by then he's onto his max extension assuming he continues on this arc.

I'd love to be wrong. Nothing would make happier than to finally get a floor general solution after 40 years of failure or a SG who's a beast. I just haven't seen many teams able to do it so quickly exclusively via the draft.

[dakomish23]

I haven't seen anybody say that they want to tank for 5 years...more like the next 1-2 years

I'm in for one more tank if we strike out. Worst place we can be is a 40 win team via signing mediocre vets that still doesn't make the playoffs and is too good to be out of the top of the draft.

But I bet that's what happens.

What are you gonna do when our next pick is not a stud or even close to it? Do it again? What happens when that next guy is mediocre? Do it again? What happens after that?

no guarantees in a draft but you are guaranteed to be on the mediocre treadmill the other way. it is like the guy on his deathbed wishing he should have quit his job and started his own company. you got to take chances to win the ring. why do you want assurances a pick will go well anyway? you know it is a risk but fortune is for the bold

Like I said to Tape, I want to be wrong about this. I want to tank in 2017 if we don't get any of the big fish and I want to knock it out the park again. I just have seen many teams land a stud and then strike out again and again in the draft.

[CJackson]

I'm in for one more tank if we strike out. Worst place we can be is a 40 win team via signing mediocre vets that still doesn't make the playoffs and is too good to be out of the top of the draft.

But I bet that's what happens.

What are you gonna do when our next pick is not a stud or even close to it? Do it again? What happens when that next guy is mediocre? Do it again? What happens after that?

no guarantees in a draft but you are guaranteed to be on the mediocre treadmill the other way. it is like the guy on his deathbed wishing he should have quit his job and started his own company. you got to take chances to win the ring. why do you want assurances a pick will go well anyway? you know it is a risk but fortune is for the bold

Like I said to Tape, I want to be wrong about this. I want to tank in 2017 if we don't get any of the big fish and I want to knock it out the park again. I just have seen many teams land a stud and then strike out again and again in the draft.

sure i know. i am down with taking the risks because i see nothing big happening any other way