Replace Melo with anyone: do we make the playoffs last season?

[NYKnicksTAPE]

Melo lead the team in Points/Rebounds/Assists. Was essentially our most complete player and maybe our 3rd or 4th best defender as well. No player mentioned would make Jose a better defender, penetrator or scoring threat. Afflalo wasn't what we expected. Lance went down. Williams was inconsistent. Porzingis was inconsistent and hit the wall so damn hard. Funny thing is we probably get into the playoffs if Melo doesn't get hurt and keep Fisher to finish out the year. Remember Melo getting hurt and Rhombus going back to the full triangle hurt the team and costed us maybe 12 games alone. We were 22-22 and could have finished with 40-45 wins but that's the game of basketball.

LeBron coasted most of last year and was able to
George is not better than Melo, he's more inefficient than Melo who gets knocked for his inefficiency
Kawhi is not better than Melo, dude couldn't buy a bucket vs OKC when the season was on the line. You can run an offense through him.
Paul moves Jose out but D-Will in. It looks good but perimeter D and the lack of a go to scorer which has haunted CP3 his career are evident
Westbrook maybe but he's erratic and would break the offense down more than Phil liked so he'd probably be handcuffed a bit
Harden hell no, not in New York playing no defense
Durant is possible it really depends because Westbrook helped him a lot last year while he got his legs back.

You seriously think that PG and Kawhi aren't better than Melo? They are both consensus top 10 players, Melo isn't. Kawhi was 2nd in MVP voting for a reason. PG was more efficient than Melo last season.

PG isn't better than Melo. The boy is challenged on offense. Good athletic, defensive player that can score a little. Melo>>>PG.

Kawhi is up in the air for me right now. He's like PG. Great defender who's offense comes and goes. Can't really create by himself. I will give PG the edge there. Kawhi is a better defender though and can play off ball with no trouble. Think a souped up Klay Thompson(you know how I feel about Klay).


They are very good players though. I just don't see them dragging last years team into the playoffs. I don't see it.

Melo's offense fell off a little last year, to the point where his offensive production wasn't that much better than PG's if at all, and PG's defense is still a lot better than Melo's which gives him the edge to me. Melo had one of his worst offensive seasons in awhile last year...PG ended up scoring more ppg than him on greater efficiency. We'll see how Melo looks this upcoming season tho.

I can't put Melo ahead of Kawhi either. I'm with u tho...I don't see them getting last year's squad into the playoffs.

[NBA Fan 1234]

TMac says that he would have taken last season's knicks to the playoffs easily:

Watch on YouTube

Easily is pushing it, but I think he would have a damn good chance to do it (and I think he actually would). He took a HORRIBLE Magic team to the playoffs and forced 7 games Detroit (Orlando was even up 3-1).

That wasn't prime Melo.

Not a valid comparison.

T-Mac said he could take last year's Knicks to the playoffs in his prime. I pointed out his prime season. It's valid.

[Nazrmohamed]

Steph and Lebron make the playoffs in the East, probably KD as well. Both Steph and Bron make everyone better and KD just for the simple fact he can do it all when he wants.

I really don't see how Steph makes anyone better outside of simply being a pg of course. And in my post before I did say that most likely it would be a pg who would do it. But Steph didn't even act as a pg on his own team. Just another case of a good player with good teammates. I don't think if he had bad teammates that anyone would elevate thier game because Steph is there.

Ive said this before, there's really only 3 players I know where they actually MAKE INFERIOR PLAYERS better. Lebron, Paul and I'm actually struggling with the third. But the rest are just good players who happen to play on stacked teams.

One could argue that while a lesser player Draymond Green had more of an impact on his teammates than Steph does.

I honestly can't believe I'm reading this. Did you see the warriors play last year? Steph curry is the most efficient shooter of alltime. Not only does he single handedly make you a good offensive team with HIS shooting alone, but he allows the rest of the team to virtually play 4 on 3 all game when they trap on the pick and roll. Doesn't make anyone better? He extends the defense drastically, he's a willing and capable passer and he's one of the best ballhandlers in the league. Saying curry doesn't make anyone better is flat out absurd. He opens up the entire court, literally. He's a threat from distances we've never seen before

So you're saying that he's a weapon other teams can't account for, so that attention opens up opportunities for other teammates. If that's how making other players is defined than I guess Ill have to change my view of it. Fair?

You made a good argument. I'll be honest and say I was thinking more of how he literaly turns far inferior players into scoring threats that on other teams might not. How you could credit him for being instrumental in another players development. How he creates scoring for others directly....as in from his hands his passes.

[Johnstarks]

Yeah his true value is that you absolutely can NOT go under screens and most teams elect to trap a lot on the PNR . He then flips it to Green who typically charges full steam into the paint. This is where Green picks up so many assists because if teams don't rotate correctly he drives to the basket. But when they converge on him he is great at finding the open shooter. No one benefits more from those traps than Green and Barnes (teams don't leave klay often)

[taikibansei]

Yeah his true value is that you absolutely can NOT go under screens and most teams elect to trap a lot on the PNR . He then flips it to Green who typically charges full steam into the paint. This is where Green picks up so many assists because if teams don't rotate correctly he drives to the basket. But when they converge on him he is great at finding the open shooter. No one benefits more from those traps than Green and Barnes (teams don't leave klay often)

Again, the names in bold had no equivalents on last year's Knicks roster. And don't forget Bogut, who (along with Green and Klay) covered up Curry's manifest deficiencies on the defensive end. Sure, KP and Lopez might have been able to take up some of the defensive slack, but there was nobody like Klay to take on the best scoring guard of the other team each and every night. Accordingly, we would not have been able to hide/rest Curry (as GSW often does) on defense.

On offense, Curry would have been alone--we had no consistent outside shooters to make the open shot, no consistently effective players in the post, nor any guys consistently able to score off aggressive drives. (Sure, KP gave us hints of greatness on the offensive end last season, but he was only consistently effective on the defensive end.) Gone, too, would have been the intricate screens and motion offense Kerr instituted to free Curry (and Klay, and Green, and Iguodala, and Barnes). Accordingly, Curry would have had to do everything on his own--simultaneously initiate the offense and be that offense, serving both as sole play-maker and leading (some nights only) scorer--something he's never had to do before. By mid-season (i.e., after exhaustion set in) it would have not been pretty. (The last three games of the finals give you an idea of just how ugly things would have gotten....)

I'll say it again, the only people I have seen with not just the skills but the endurance to drag such a team into the playoffs are LeBron, Westbrook and Harden.

[CJackson]

Yeah his true value is that you absolutely can NOT go under screens and most teams elect to trap a lot on the PNR . He then flips it to Green who typically charges full steam into the paint. This is where Green picks up so many assists because if teams don't rotate correctly he drives to the basket. But when they converge on him he is great at finding the open shooter. No one benefits more from those traps than Green and Barnes (teams don't leave klay often)

Again, the names in bold had no equivalents on last year's Knicks roster. And don't forget Bogut, who (along with Green and Klay) covered up Curry's manifest deficiencies on the defensive end. Sure, KP and Lopez might have been able to take up some of the defensive slack, but there was nobody like Klay to take on the best scoring guard of the other team each and every night. Accordingly, we would not have been able to hide/rest Curry (as GSW often does) on defense.

On offense, Curry would have been alone--we had no consistent outside shooters to make the open shot, no consistently effective players in the post, nor any guys consistently able to score off aggressive drives. (Sure, KP gave us hints of greatness on the offensive end last season, but he was only consistently effective on the defensive end.) Gone, too, would have been the intricate screens and motion offense Kerr instituted to free Curry (and Klay, and Green, and Iguodala, and Barnes). Accordingly, Curry would have had to do everything on his own--simultaneously initiate the offense and be that offense, serving both as sole play-maker and leading (some nights only) scorer--something he's never had to do before. By mid-season (i.e., after exhaustion set in) it would have not been pretty. (The last three games of the finals give you an idea of just how ugly things would have gotten....)

I'll say it again, the only people I have seen with not just the skills but the endurance to drag such a team into the playoffs are LeBron, Westbrook and Harden.

Endurance is so vital. Curry was worn ragged. Lebron is a frigging tank.

Think of all of the talented offensive boxers who never reached the top due to an inability to take a punch. Even Mayweather with his elusiveness still had to be able to take a punch to go undefeated. Amir Khan is gifted as hell, but he has about as solid a chin as a porcelain rabbit.

[99 Knicks]

You seriously think that PG and Kawhi aren't better than Melo? They are both consensus top 10 players, Melo isn't. Kawhi was 2nd in MVP voting for a reason. PG was more efficient than Melo last season.

PG isn't better than Melo. The boy is challenged on offense. Good athletic, defensive player that can score a little. Melo>>>PG.

Kawhi is up in the air for me right now. He's like PG. Great defender who's offense comes and goes. Can't really create by himself. I will give PG the edge there. Kawhi is a better defender though and can play off ball with no trouble. Think a souped up Klay Thompson(you know how I feel about Klay).


They are very good players though. I just don't see them dragging last years team into the playoffs. I don't see it.

Melo's offense fell off a little last year, to the point where his offensive production wasn't that much better than PG's if at all, and PG's defense is still a lot better than Melo's which gives him the edge to me. Melo had one of his worst offensive seasons in awhile last year...PG ended up scoring more ppg than him on greater efficiency. We'll see how Melo looks this upcoming season tho.

I can't put Melo ahead of Kawhi either. I'm with u tho...I don't see them getting last year's squad into the playoffs.

Melo was in a tough spot tho. You factor the injury, new teammates, a stale offense and his offensive output would suffer but he had a 19 game stretch and 21 game stretch of averaging 24/9/4 on 47/38/83 I think. With Rose here and Noah being able to facilitate out of the post I think he averages 25 with much better percentages. Horny runs an offense close to what team USA does.

[Sark]

TMac says that he would have taken last season's knicks to the playoffs easily:

Watch on YouTube

Easily is pushing it, but I think he would have a damn good chance to do it (and I think he actually would). He took a HORRIBLE Magic team to the playoffs and forced 7 games Detroit (Orlando was even up 3-1).

That wasn't prime Melo.

Not a valid comparison.

So you are saying Melo is done with his prime, and now in decline phase? We're in for a rough year then.

[M2J]

We'll never know if LeBron could take a team with that little talent to playoffs, because he would leave for a contender.

He's never been on a team less talented than last year's Knicks. EVER.

This is a joke

[TheDavinciCHODE]

Dude, regarding the bold, I quoted the respective head-to-head records from last season. Houston, Portland, and Dallas were killed in every match-up listed. I.e., those so-called "elite" Western teams got their asses handed to them. No need to discuss Utah and Memphis...who couldn't even make the playoffs in a crappy conference.

My point stands: it was the West that was top-heavy last season, with one historically great team (GSW), two very good teams (OKC and Spurs), and one okay team (the Clippers). These numbers will go down next season to one historically great team (GSW) and two okay teams (Spurs and Clippers). Meanwhile, the East will improve from top-to-bottom.

So, basically, you've bet your balls...and lost them. I don't want or need them though--maybe I should sell them on Ebay?

There are so many variables about the regular season that hard to quantify. There's a HUGE gap between regular season games, and how they'd match up in a playoff series.

Injuries, fatigue, lethargy, apathy, back-to-backs, or whatever all play into a normal regular season game. There's a big difference between that and a 7 game series. For example, the Cavs lost the season series to the Raptors last year in the regular season...the Jazz were 2-0 against the Pacers, one made the playoffs as a 7 seed and the other missed the playoffs...

Some of the teams you mentioned played each other only twice...there's a ton of variance in that. The Blazers beat the Warriors, but lost to some Eastern Conference team, does that mean that team is better than the Warriors? See why basing things on regular season meeting is shaky at best?

I'd love to see the betting odds on a series between Houston and Charlotte. or Portland and charlotte..

You aren't funny. And trying to say one team would kill another in a playoff series because they won games against them in the regular season is pretty sophomoric logic.

The raptors made the conference finals and I doubt anyone would put them higher than the 7th best team in the league.

and lol at saying the West is a crappy conference.

Charlotte had the best record in the league post allstar break after the Courtney lee trade. You know the guy we are optimistic improves the Knicks. They'd be heavy favorites over a rockets team in full collapse at the end of the year. And they'd almost certainly be favored over a portland team that finished a distant 5th in a weak western conference.

The Charlotte Hornets...the same Charlotte Hornets that couldn't get passed a banged up Miami Heat Squad and failed to score 100 in almost every game?

You guys are seriously overrating that team. They had 1 guy that could get his own consistantly on offense, and lived off of their defense, but ultimately a defense that failed to stop Wade, Dragic and Whiteside from destroying it night and out?

You are really overrating the regular season. I am sure the Hornets would make a series out of it against Portland or Houston, but saying they'd be heavy favorites? That's egregious. They really weren't that good. There's a huge distance between the regular season and the playoffs when you match up in a 7 game series. Hustling and bringing it every night is half the battle over 82 games.

The playoffs comes down to talent, depth, and execution. While I think Charlotte had plenty of good players, they were all average players outside of Kemba and Batum on a good night. The style they would have to play is slow things down, play good defense, and let Kemba do his thing, or play through Jefferson in the post and shoot 3's.

The Blazers could roll out a lineup of 5 deadly shooters and 3 good shot creators. Their offense was a machine. We're talking about a team that dropped 99 or more in every game vs the Warriors in the 2nd round.

Their defense was trash, so Charlotte gets the nod there, but Charlotte would struggle to score 105 + every game like they'd have to in order to win.

I think it'd be a much different outlook in that playoff series than you're thinking.

As far as Houston, they definitely have the overall talent advantage over Charlotte, and that's what really matters in the series. I think they just had no heart playing the Warriors. They knew they couldn't win and checked out. That wouldn't happen against charlotte. The Hornets would have no answers for Harden or Dwight. You couldn't say the same for Charlotte.

I'd love to have seen the series, but don't think heavy favorites is at all fair.

[Sark]

We'll never know if LeBron could take a team with that little talent to playoffs, because he would leave for a contender.

He's never been on a team less talented than last year's Knicks. EVER.

This is a joke

His early Cavs teams can certainly give the Knicks a run for the money.

[NBA Fan 1234]

We'll never know if LeBron could take a team with that little talent to playoffs, because he would leave for a contender.

He's never been on a team less talented than last year's Knicks. EVER.

This is a joke

His early Cavs teams can certainly give the Knicks a run for the money.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007.html

[Johnstarks]

Yeah you can't be serious about houston being on charlottes level. Houston wouldn't have even made the playoffs in the East. That was a pretty bad team around harden and a declining howard.

Charlotte had injuries to batum, zeller, and kemba playing on a torn meniscus and almost beat a good miami team. Miami most likely takes that toronto series if whiteside doesnt get hurt.

You guys need to put to bed the west is better than the east rhetoric. Outside of the top 4 west seeds the west was extremely weak last season

[tapshotta]

Easily is pushing it, but I think he would have a damn good chance to do it (and I think he actually would). He took a HORRIBLE Magic team to the playoffs and forced 7 games Detroit (Orlando was even up 3-1).

That wasn't prime Melo.

Not a valid comparison.

T-Mac said he could take last year's Knicks to the playoffs in his prime. I pointed out his prime season. It's valid.

I wasn't talking about you.

[tapshotta]

Easily is pushing it, but I think he would have a damn good chance to do it (and I think he actually would). He took a HORRIBLE Magic team to the playoffs and forced 7 games Detroit (Orlando was even up 3-1).

That wasn't prime Melo.

Not a valid comparison.

So you are saying Melo is done with his prime, and now in decline phase? We're in for a rough year then.

That's what you're inferring.

I didn't share my opinion about where Melo is in his career arc.

I said that last year wasn't Melo in his prime, injury prevented that.

[Boarder Patrol]

LeBron would take us to the playoffs easily, probably the finals. I think we make the playoffs with Russ too. As great as some other guys are those are the only two drag-a-team-on-their-back's types I think there are.

KD and Chris Paul would have a shot too.

[99 Knicks]

LeBron would take us to the playoffs easily, probably the finals. I think we make the playoffs with Russ too. As great as some other guys are those are the only two drag-a-team-on-their-back's types I think there are.

KD and Chris Paul would have a shot too.

Who's LeBron gonna give the ball to like he does with Kyrie? Who's gonna own the glass like Love/TT? Lopez won't even play because he can't move, KP will be the center, who's gonna spread the floor for him?

[Boarder Patrol]

LeBron would take us to the playoffs easily, probably the finals. I think we make the playoffs with Russ too. As great as some other guys are those are the only two drag-a-team-on-their-back's types I think there are.

KD and Chris Paul would have a shot too.

Who's LeBron gonna give the ball to like he does with Kyrie? Who's gonna own the glass like Love/TT? Lopez won't even play because he can't move, KP will be the center, who's gonna spread the floor for him?

Of course there'd be problems, but a top-3 GOAT (which I think LeBron is) can take over the game on his own and lead his team to the finals. Mo Williams was his 2nd option for a few 60+ win seasons and in 2007 his supporting scorers was a few good defensive bigs cleaning up and averaging 10-12 PPG. You add LeBron and suddenly Jose doesn't have to play point, just spot up for wide open threes. Afflalo gets tons more clean looks. The bigs have a super smart physical defender that other players need to get through before them. LeBron changes everything.

[Sark]

LeBron would take us to the playoffs easily, probably the finals. I think we make the playoffs with Russ too. As great as some other guys are those are the only two drag-a-team-on-their-back's types I think there are.

KD and Chris Paul would have a shot too.

Who's LeBron gonna give the ball to like he does with Kyrie? Who's gonna own the glass like Love/TT? Lopez won't even play because he can't move, KP will be the center, who's gonna spread the floor for him?

Lebron makes players around him better. He took our trash (JR/Chump) and turned them into champions. Kyrie and Love literally never even sniffed the playoffs in their collective careers before they played with Lebron. Last year when he sat out, the Cavs were awful.

[Hemispheres]

There's definitely a few who probably would. I like what Melo did last season improving his defense, leadership and passing, but overall that was a weak offensive season for him. Especially post-ref incident. Lebron, CP3, Curry, and Westbrook all would definitely have gotten us to the playoffs imo. Paul George, Harden, Lillard and Kawhi are maybes. Point guards have the best shot cause it covers up what was our biggest weakness, Jose Calderon.