Atlantic Division Offseason Review

[xNewYorkMadex]

This really is a perfect example of why the Knicks wont get the benefit of the doubt until they actually start winning.

The media wanted Melo to sign with Chicago when he was a FA. It wouldve been a lineup of Rose/Butler/Melo/Taj/Noah w Thibs as coach. On paper that team was supposed to be championship contenders. No doubt in my mind that team wouldve been predicted as a 50+ win team. And no doubt more than several people wouldve had them in the NBA Finals.

Rose in 13-14 was coming off a terrible 10 game season, Jimmy Butler was coming off a 13PPG season and still only known as a defender with potential. Noah coming off his best season in his career, think he finished top 5. Plug in Melo and suddenly that team with a Rose who barely played was going to compete for a title. But they get the benefit of the doubt because they had a history and reputation of winning games.

Now on the flip side, we have 3/5 of that same starting lineup. Rose isnt coming off an injury filled yr. Hell, hes coming off the healthiest season hes had since the year he won MVP. Did he have a good year? No. But he is coming off a well respectable last 2 months of the season. Averaging 47%/37 3pt% 17ppg/5apg after the AS break. Noah, similar to Rose in 13-14, is coming off an awful injury plagued season. Nothing good to say about it. KP, similar to Butler, is coming off a 14 PPG season and is viewed as a player with potential. And even though Melo isnt the same he was a couple years ago, its safe to say Melo is coming off probably his best well rounded season avging 8 boards and 4 assists per game.

And yet the Knicks are predicted to finish with anywhere between 35-40 wins. Why? Because we dont have a reputation of winning games. In my opinion, the only big difference between that projected Bulls starting lineup and ours is Noah. Noah came off an amazing year. Thats the only big difference when it comes to projections during that period of time and now.

[NYKnicksTAPE]

ESPN Record Predictor http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/17375776/projected-records-win-totals-standings-every-nba-team-2016-17-season

I don't have Insider. I hear they gave us 35 wins.

Yeah, but these projections are based on rpm. Rpm isn't kind to Derrick Rose at all and basically views him as a pretty bad player and clear net negative. The bench is also seen as being a little weak.

The Knicks would certainly be disappointed if they improved just three wins after spending freely this summer, but RPM rates Derrick Rose (minus-2.3) as a replacement-level contributor at this point and is skeptical of New York's weak bench.

Those are the 2 main things dragging us down to 35 wins if u want to judge solely based on rpm. It's a weak projection IMO. Where is the stat that shows the value of going from Fisher/Rambis to Hornacek or the stat that shows the value of the vet leadership and locker room presence of Noah? There's so many things that need to be taken into account that these stats can't put a value on.

[HEZI]

This really is a perfect example of why the Knicks wont get the benefit of the doubt until they actually start winning.

The media wanted Melo to sign with Chicago when he was a FA. It wouldve been a lineup of Rose/Butler/Melo/Taj/Noah w Thibs as coach. On paper that team was supposed to be championship contenders. No doubt in my mind that team wouldve been predicted as a 50+ win team. And no doubt more than several people wouldve had them in the NBA Finals.

Rose in 13-14 was coming off a terrible 10 game season, Jimmy Butler was coming off a 13PPG season and still only known as a defender with potential. Noah coming off his best season in his career, think he finished top 5. Plug in Melo and suddenly that team with a Rose who barely played was going to compete for a title. But they get the benefit of the doubt because they had a history and reputation of winning games.

Now on the flip side, we have 3/5 of that same starting lineup. Rose isnt coming off an injury filled yr. Hell, hes coming off the healthiest season hes had since the year he won MVP. Did he have a good year? No. But he is coming off a well respectable last 2 months of the season. Averaging 47%/37 3pt% 17ppg/5apg after the AS break. Noah, similar to Rose in 13-14, is coming off an awful injury plagued season. Nothing good to say about it. KP, similar to Butler, is coming off a 14 PPG season and is viewed as a player with potential. And even though Melo isnt the same he was a couple years ago, its safe to say Melo is coming off probably his best well rounded season avging 8 boards and 4 assists per game.

And yet the Knicks are predicted to finish with anywhere between 35-40 wins. Why? Because we dont have a reputation of winning games. In my opinion, the only big difference between that projected Bulls starting lineup and ours is Noah. Noah came off an amazing year. Thats the only big difference when it comes to projections during that period of time and now.

We are the underdogs and we need to stay the underdogs. It makes victory more sweeter

[dakomish23]

Besides 1 recent season, the Knicks have always proven their doubters/critics right.

No matter who is our new coach, no matter who is our new PG or C, no matter what "cancers" we traded away, the Knicks dont ever prove anyone wrong.

I am optimistic about our team, but its more than fair to question the makeup of our team. We have big names, but that doesnt mean jack sh** honestly. Knicks need to go out and prove them wrong for once. I have no problem with anyone bashing our team. We havent earned that respect to get the benefit of the doubt. Just go out there and win.

It has been a **** show for sure. But they always leave out specifics. Like if Tyson didn't miss 30 games in 13-14, we likely make the playoffs that year and it would be 4 years in a row. Wouldn't matter though.

[j4remi]

I think the long term grade is off. I can't see how a 20 million dollar expiring contract has zero upside, the cap space = flexibility in long term decision making. Plus the presence of a RoY runner up with KP's unique abilities along with all of their 1sts moving forward should be worth more than a D+ alone imo.

The only other small issue I have is calling AA their most consistent player. The team's record when he scored like a second option (I think 15 points was the parameter) was great, but he was really up and down in scoring and efficiency plus not providing much anywhere else on any consistent basis. That was pretty much a throwaway line, I just wanted to correct that bit.

[thebuzzardman]

I think the long term grade is off. I can't see how a 20 million dollar expiring contract has zero upside, the cap space = flexibility in long term decision making. Plus the presence of a RoY runner up with KP's unique abilities along with all of their 1sts moving forward should be worth more than a D+ alone imo.

The only other small issue I have is calling AA their most consistent player. The team's record when he scored like a second option (I think 15 points was the parameter) was great, but he was really up and down in scoring and efficiency plus not providing much anywhere else on any consistent basis. That was pretty much a throwaway line, I just wanted to correct that bit.

Agreed.

Interesting thought on Aflalo vs Clee. The Knicks had the chance to offer more $ or years to Aflalo, but didn't want to impact the cap. Conversely, it should be pointed out they showed no inclination to lock him up long term from the jump. Now, I get that the wanted to maintain FA flexibility going into this offseason and next. But when CLee came up, a player in sort of the same tier as Aflalo, they went right in and tied him up for 3 years. I get the Knicks needed a SG pretty badly in a thin market and the price went up. I get they were looking for a little medium term continuity amongst the starting 4. But it's interesting they had no problem giving CLee a decent sized contract but more importantly, several years, when they could have gone "Aflalo" again, in terms of a stop gap guy.

Could it just be possible that they see CLee as being the sort of player they want to commit to?

I guess no reason to quote your post, other than I agree. But CLee doesn't get the hype of the other acquisitions, and that's understandable as he isn't as good or as young. But interesting the Knicks comfort level in committing multiple years.

[shtolky]

Rose vs. Calderon (Rose in a heart beat)

Lee Vs AA (I'd go with Lee in the triangle, AA deviates from the game plan and no-longer can keep up with younger legs)

Noah vs Rolo (in the triangle I'll take Noah because of his passing, Rolo shoots a higher % but makes you question him when he takes it. I'd say they are a wash on defense)

Jennings Vs. Grant (I'd take Jennings 9 times out of 10, although I like Grant I feel he would have never become a starter, and hell I'd take Jennings over Calderon too)

Daug Vs. DWill (DWill was exciting to watch when it came to his dunks, but every thing else was a head smacker. I do feel that Kuz brings more to the table with his ball movement, shooting ability, and rebounding)

Willy Vs KsLife ( I like KS and feel after losing this weight he can be a very mobile big, but I can not complain about this pick up. I feel that Willy is still a little raw, but his future looks to be brighter than KS so I'll give the edge to Willy.

J.Holiday Vs Galo ( Both players give you the same effort on offense and defense, J.Holiday is the better defender and Galo is the better ball handler. The thing about Galo is he is a tweener while J.H is suited for the 2 which is what WE need, so the coin flip goes to J. Holiday).

So with improvements made to a 32 win team I don't see how this team can't improve greatly from last years record. We have two point guards that are capable of starting so I'm not worried about Rose's health. Same goes with Noah, we have depth at that position, even if we had to move KP to Center and Melo to PF, we have players that can fill the void - like moving LT to SF. Depth is very important and that's something we were lacking last year.

I agree with what you said above, however, I think the big comparison that's missing, and that everyone of these so-called experts is missing is KP rookie vs. KP year 2. For some reason, people are underestimating this comparison as THE key to the season. The year 2 jump is why people are starting to talk T-Wolves as playoff contenders, because of Towns year 2 (yes I know Thibs is a huge factor in that, but Towns is reason #1). The talk that KP's growth will be stunted by the vets acquired, I mentioned yesterday, is utter bs. Rose is the only acquisition that could even REMOTELY threaten KP's touches, and under a contract year, where he HAS to win and play well, I think he will be the model PG for this team. Plus KP goes from Calderon dribble penetration to Rose dribble penetration...I mean please. Year 2 KP is by far the biggest factor for this team as far as its ceiling goes.

[HEZI]

Rose vs. Calderon (Rose in a heart beat)

Lee Vs AA (I'd go with Lee in the triangle, AA deviates from the game plan and no-longer can keep up with younger legs)

Noah vs Rolo (in the triangle I'll take Noah because of his passing, Rolo shoots a higher % but makes you question him when he takes it. I'd say they are a wash on defense)

Jennings Vs. Grant (I'd take Jennings 9 times out of 10, although I like Grant I feel he would have never become a starter, and hell I'd take Jennings over Calderon too)

Daug Vs. DWill (DWill was exciting to watch when it came to his dunks, but every thing else was a head smacker. I do feel that Kuz brings more to the table with his ball movement, shooting ability, and rebounding)

Willy Vs KsLife ( I like KS and feel after losing this weight he can be a very mobile big, but I can not complain about this pick up. I feel that Willy is still a little raw, but his future looks to be brighter than KS so I'll give the edge to Willy.

J.Holiday Vs Galo ( Both players give you the same effort on offense and defense, J.Holiday is the better defender and Galo is the better ball handler. The thing about Galo is he is a tweener while J.H is suited for the 2 which is what WE need, so the coin flip goes to J. Holiday).

So with improvements made to a 32 win team I don't see how this team can't improve greatly from last years record. We have two point guards that are capable of starting so I'm not worried about Rose's health. Same goes with Noah, we have depth at that position, even if we had to move KP to Center and Melo to PF, we have players that can fill the void - like moving LT to SF. Depth is very important and that's something we were lacking last year.

I agree with what you said above, however, I think the big comparison that's missing, and that everyone of these so-called experts is missing is KP rookie vs. KP year 2. For some reason, people are underestimating this comparison as THE key to the season. The year 2 jump is why people are starting to talk T-Wolves as playoff contenders, because of Towns year 2 (yes I know Thibs is a huge factor in that, but Towns is reason #1). The talk that KP's growth will be stunted by the vets acquired, I mentioned yesterday, is utter bs. Rose is the only acquisition that could even REMOTELY threaten KP's touches, and under a contract year, where he HAS to win and play well, I think he will be the model PG for this team. Plus KP goes from Calderon dribble penetration to Rose dribble penetration...I mean please. Year 2 KP is by far the biggest factor for this team as far as its ceiling goes.

Good point. I would also add that Porzingis in his rookie year came in with low expectations and for the first couple of months he wasn't being featured at all. They were allowing him to slowly transition into the atmosphere. His 2nd year is completely different as he has established himself as a legit NBA starter with scoring ability so going into the season the coaching staff and the players around him have a better idea of who he is and what his capabilities are, so from the start of training camp they can begin properly incorporating him into the offense.

[Smitty731]

Man I wanted to stay away, but I had to chime in one more time on Noah:

I think he's a terrific fit for what the Knicks want to do offensively. His passing will be a big time addition. He's one of the best passing bigs in the game. I said similar things in the article.

But defensively he's slipped the last two seasons. In 2014 he was arguably the best defensive player in the league. But he has fallen off to around league average over the last two years. Injuries have certainly played a part, but he's not the same guy he was. He could get back to the level, but that would be almost unprecedented for a player his age and injury history.

And those youtube clips are cool and all, but all of them are from multiple years ago. James still on the Heat, Young still on the 76ers, and Carroll still on the Hawks. He's not exactly the same guy from a few years ago.

Oh and I called Porzingis the future of the franchise too and I love that guy. I hope he ends up a dominant player. He's also extremely nice, well spoken and accommodating from talking with him at Summer League. The Knicks couldn't ask for a better potential superstar.

[Knicksfan1992]

Man I wanted to stay away, but I had to chime in one more time on Noah:

I think he's a terrific fit for what the Knicks want to do offensively. His passing will be a big time addition. He's one of the best passing bigs in the game. I said similar things in the article.

But defensively he's slipped the last two seasons. In 2014 he was arguably the best defensive player in the league. But he has fallen off to around league average over the last two years. Injuries have certainly played a part, but he's not the same guy he was. He could get back to the level, but that would be almost unprecedented for a player his age and injury history.

And those youtube clips are cool and all, but all of them are from multiple years ago. James still on the Heat, Young still on the 76ers, and Carroll still on the Hawks. He's not exactly the same guy from a few years ago.

Oh and I called Porzingis the future of the franchise too and I love that guy. I hope he ends up a dominant player. He's also extremely nice, well spoken and accommodating from talking with him at Summer League. The Knicks couldn't ask for a better potential superstar.

This is where I disagree. It was obvious last year that once he got hurt the Bulls defense fell to shambles. Basketball Reference has his DBPM at 4.3 last year which is in line with his prime years. Also the Bulls defensive rating when he was on the floor was 101.9. When he was off the floor? 107.5 also according to basketball reference. There is overwhelming evidence that when Joakim Noah is on the floor he is still a very good defender and probably better or at least more versatile than Robin Lopez on that end. I think even schematically he makes more sense defensively next to Kristaps than Robin Lopez. Even though the Knicks were great at protecting the rim they could do nothing to prevent teams from getting there and wreaking havoc. Rolo struggled to contain guards out on the perimeter and KP although improving at that aspect wasn't great at that either. The one thing Noah is known for is being able to switch onto guards and do a good job at staying in front of them. The league is turning more into a positionless league and you need guys that can cover multiple spots which Rolo showed he couldn't do last year. Noah when he's good and healthy can.

[BKlutch]

I think the long term grade is off. I can't see how a 20 million dollar expiring contract has zero upside, the cap space = flexibility in long term decision making. Plus the presence of a RoY runner up with KP's unique abilities along with all of their 1sts moving forward should be worth more than a D+ alone imo.

The only other small issue I have is calling AA their most consistent player. The team's record when he scored like a second option (I think 15 points was the parameter) was great, but he was really up and down in scoring and efficiency plus not providing much anywhere else on any consistent basis. That was pretty much a throwaway line, I just wanted to correct that bit.

Agreed.

Interesting thought on Aflalo vs Clee. The Knicks had the chance to offer more $ or years to Aflalo, but didn't want to impact the cap. Conversely, it should be pointed out they showed no inclination to lock him up long term from the jump. Now, I get that the wanted to maintain FA flexibility going into this offseason and next. But when CLee came up, a player in sort of the same tier as Aflalo, they went right in and tied him up for 3 years. I get the Knicks needed a SG pretty badly in a thin market and the price went up. I get they were looking for a little medium term continuity amongst the starting 4. But it's interesting they had no problem giving CLee a decent sized contract but more importantly, several years, when they could have gone "Aflalo" again, in terms of a stop gap guy.

Could it just be possible that they see CLee as being the sort of player they want to commit to?

I guess no reason to quote your post, other than I agree. But CLee doesn't get the hype of the other acquisitions, and that's understandable as he isn't as good or as young. But interesting the Knicks comfort level in committing multiple years.

Phil's no phool. He saw that AA didn't fit well with the offense -- he tried to be (old) Melo-lite, but without the skills. The offense died in his hands, but he wasn't a good enough shooter. For Phil to offer a three year deal to CLee, he had to feel he does fit the kind of offense we're going to run. AA was a stopgap, the best that was available at the time on short notice. Every year, things get a little better.

Whoever predicts that we only win 35 games with all the improvement does not understand what has been accomplished.

[HEZI]

Noah is 31 it's crazy how some people think he is a limping geezer now

2014 was only 2 years ago and he had a dislocated shoulder last year which took him out of action for more than half the season. In a way that was actually a blessing because it allowed his body to rest and heal. He will be rejuvenated and fresh for this year.

Dennis Rodman was 34 when he went to the Bulls after only playing 49 games the previous year in San Antonio and couldn't play more than 64 games during his first 2 years in Chicago, but guess what? He was still a beast on defense and still made a difference and still helped them win games.

[BKlutch]

Man I wanted to stay away, but I had to chime in one more time on Noah:

I think he's a terrific fit for what the Knicks want to do offensively. His passing will be a big time addition. He's one of the best passing bigs in the game. I said similar things in the article.

But defensively he's slipped the last two seasons. In 2014 he was arguably the best defensive player in the league. But he has fallen off to around league average over the last two years. Injuries have certainly played a part, but he's not the same guy he was. He could get back to the level, but that would be almost unprecedented for a player his age and injury history.

And those youtube clips are cool and all, but all of them are from multiple years ago. James still on the Heat, Young still on the 76ers, and Carroll still on the Hawks. He's not exactly the same guy from a few years ago.

Oh and I called Porzingis the future of the franchise too and I love that guy. I hope he ends up a dominant player. He's also extremely nice, well spoken and accommodating from talking with him at Summer League. The Knicks couldn't ask for a better potential superstar.

This is where I disagree. It was obvious last year that once he got hurt the Bulls defense fell to shambles. Basketball Reference has his DBPM at 4.3 last year which is in line with his prime years. Also the Bulls defensive rating when he was on the floor was 101.9. When he was off the floor? 107.5 also according to basketball reference. There is overwhelming evidence that when Joakim Noah is on the floor he is still a very good defender and probably better or at least more versatile than Robin Lopez on that end. I think even schematically he makes more sense defensively next to Kristaps than Robin Lopez. Even though the Knicks were great at protecting the rim they could do nothing to prevent teams from getting there and wreaking havoc. Rolo struggled to contain guards out on the perimeter and KP although improving at that aspect wasn't great at that either. The one thing Noah is known for is being able to switch onto guards and do a good job at staying in front of them. The league is turning more into a positionless league and you need guys that can cover multiple spots which Rolo showed he couldn't do last year. Noah when he's good and healthy can.

Robin was great for us and I really liked him, but he had a lot of holes in his game. He was helpless in defending certain bigs who liked to shoot from in close -- for example, his brother Brooke. As you pointed out, he wasn't able to jump out and defend help on the perimeter. His offensive game was limited, but his passing was only adequate. He was not nearly as mobile as Noah. I'm looking to see an improvement at this position this year.

[JXL]

Noah is 31 it's crazy how some people think he is a limping geezer now

2014 was only 2 years ago and he had a dislocated shoulder last year which took him out of action for more than half the season. In a way that was actually a blessing because it allowed his body to rest and heal. He will be rejuvenated and fresh for this year.

Dennis Rodman was 34 when he went to the Bulls after only playing 49 games the previous year in San Antonio and couldn't play more than 64 games during his first 2 years in Chicago, but guess what? He was still a beast on defense and still made a difference and still helped them win games.

Here's the narrative on all of this:

1) It's New York: Biggest Media Capital of the Nation
2) It's James Dolan's Knicks: The Worst Owner in the NBA (now that Donald Sterling is gone)
3) Media believes Carmelo Anthony is Cancer on the B-Ball court.


There's no point in arguing. They just got to win games. That's all.

[Floozenheimen]

I felt the assessment of the Knicks was decent enough until it was said that Afflalo was our most consistent player last year. I watched all 82 games last year and AA was a disaster. A supposed 3&D guy provided very little of either. Instead, his defense was laughable and his offense solely consisted of backing his man down to the post and taking a difficult contested turn around jumper. He was so bad at one point that he was benched for Sasha f'ing Vujacic! I guess you could say Afflalo was consistently awful, if that is how we're looking at his season.

Furthermore, the complete lack of mention of upgrading from Jose to Rose and how tremendous that is, is blasphemous when analyzing the Knicks. As bad as Afflalo was last year, Jose was a disgrace to the game of basketball. He was horrible on D, and was bailed out countless times from his surrounding teamates. He never drove the ball, and even hesistated on open 3s, allowing his defender to close on him, upon which he'd pass it off, usually to Melo with about 5 or less on the shot clock.

I think our upgrades in the backcourt were extremely understated in this article. We had the worst backcourt in the league by a large margin. Now with Rose, Jennings, Lee and Holiday our backcourt will be respectable at worst and lethal at best.

[BKlutch]

Noah is 31 it's crazy how some people think he is a limping geezer now

2014 was only 2 years ago and he had a dislocated shoulder last year which took him out of action for more than half the season. In a way that was actually a blessing because it allowed his body to rest and heal. He will be rejuvenated and fresh for this year.

Dennis Rodman was 34 when he went to the Bulls after only playing 49 games the previous year in San Antonio and couldn't play more than 64 games during his first 2 years in Chicago, but guess what? He was still a beast on defense and still made a difference and still helped them win games.

Here's the narrative on all of this:

1) It's New York: Biggest Media Capital of the Nation
2) It's James Dolan's Knicks: The Worst Owner in the NBA (now that Donald Sterling is gone)
3) Media believes Carmelo Anthony is Cancer on the B-Ball court.


There's no point in arguing. They just got to win games. That's all.

Of course. And ain't that going to be fun to see.

[RHODEY]

ESPN Record Predictor http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/17375776/projected-records-win-totals-standings-every-nba-team-2016-17-season

I don't have Insider. I hear they gave us 35 wins.

Yeah, but these projections are based on rpm. Rpm isn't kind to Derrick Rose at all and basically views him as a pretty bad player and clear net negative. The bench is also seen as being a little weak.

The Knicks would certainly be disappointed if they improved just three wins after spending freely this summer, but RPM rates Derrick Rose (minus-2.3) as a replacement-level contributor at this point and is skeptical of New York's weak bench.

Those are the 2 main things dragging us down to 35 wins if u want to judge solely based on rpm. It's a weak projection IMO. Where is the stat that shows the value of going from Fisher/Rambis to Hornacek or the stat that shows the value of the vet leadership and locker room presence of Noah? There's so many things that need to be taken into account that these stats can't put a value on.

Thanks for cutting to the chase and vectoring on the side of reality.

Now we are to believe Derrick Rose is a PRETTY BAD PLAYER? A clear net negative?

Moving to Hornacek is huge, both for his leadership, his ability to bring out the best in guards and wings, his track record and willingness to meet Phil halfway, and Phil trusting him to do that (and to let Phil be a Coach Emeritus, which Fisher resisted, while he was focused on the mammary glands of Matt Barnes over-sexed ex). In training camp and at Westchester during the season, expect Jeff to encourage Phil to be more involved, and to bring Zen-Daddy up to speed on the modern NBA game.

And the manner in which people are overlooking Noah's value and impact is shocking. Well, no more shocking than wondering if wounded warriors such as Derrick and Brandon and Noah are going to give us Antonio McDyess/Luc Longley flashbacks.

Now that we have PGs who can get us into early offense, penetrate and create space, a center such as Noah has the potential to be the bell cow for this team.

A) Porzingis under his wing.

B) Pressure off of Carmelo to do everything and create against multiple defenders.

C) Ability to pass allows everyone else to move without the ball and improve spacing.

D) Offensive boarding

E) Defensive tenacity and leadership.

People talk about point forwards, such as LeBron, master facilitators.

Noah is a very canny, intelligent player, a point mentality on offense, a middle linebacker/coach on defense.

He will hold everyone on the floor accountable on defense. Big Plus.

Bigger Plus.

As good as Lopez was for us last season, and as significant as his growth was offensively as a back to the basket player the last third of the season?

Noah sees the floor better, and understands the role of a passing center with court vision in a fluid offense.

So much of the triangle is about spacing, and cuts, and screens and making the extra pass to open up open shots. This is where Noah excels on the offensive end, not so much as a progenitor, but as a facilitator. Even more so than Rose and Jennings (and Noah, obviously, has significant experience working with Rose), Noah has the potential to really flesh out and realize the hybrid triangle offense Hornacek is looking to evolve. Noah's ability to find cutters and back doors, to set screens, to recognize passing lanes and to anticipate player movement so that when the extra passe is made and the ball arrives out beyond the three point line, PLAYERS ARE IN RHYTHM. So often these past two seasons, the Triangle showed flashes when it was working, but more often than not, it was mechanical and predictable and thus easier to anticipate and defend.

Injuries notwithstanding, I believe that Noah felt elbowed out of the rotation by Coach Hoiberg in Chicago, and had lost the prominence he had as an offensive cog in Thibs system.

Factor in Noah with PGs who can go north-south and get to the rack and break down a defense, and the potential for more open shots, and less double-teaming of Melo and Porzingis, could make for a 45 win season as our FLOOR . Sure , it's a Tough tough scrum in the East, but, again, we should be in the hunt, and look for Noah to not only facilitate efficiency on offense, but to rekindle KNICKS PRIDE & PASSION on defense.

...And to fast track Porzingis' future development as a legitimate NBA-5.

[DaGawd]

Man I wanted to stay away, but I had to chime in one more time on Noah:

I think he's a terrific fit for what the Knicks want to do offensively. His passing will be a big time addition. He's one of the best passing bigs in the game. I said similar things in the article.

But defensively he's slipped the last two seasons. In 2014 he was arguably the best defensive player in the league. But he has fallen off to around league average over the last two years. Injuries have certainly played a part, but he's not the same guy he was. He could get back to the level, but that would be almost unprecedented for a player his age and injury history.

And those youtube clips are cool and all, but all of them are from multiple years ago. James still on the Heat, Young still on the 76ers, and Carroll still on the Hawks. He's not exactly the same guy from a few years ago.

Oh and I called Porzingis the future of the franchise too and I love that guy. I hope he ends up a dominant player. He's also extremely nice, well spoken and accommodating from talking with him at Summer League. The Knicks couldn't ask for a better potential superstar.

This is where I disagree. It was obvious last year that once he got hurt the Bulls defense fell to shambles. Basketball Reference has his DBPM at 4.3 last year which is in line with his prime years. Also the Bulls defensive rating when he was on the floor was 101.9. When he was off the floor? 107.5 also according to basketball reference. There is overwhelming evidence that when Joakim Noah is on the floor he is still a very good defender and probably better or at least more versatile than Robin Lopez on that end. I think even schematically he makes more sense defensively next to Kristaps than Robin Lopez. Even though the Knicks were great at protecting the rim they could do nothing to prevent teams from getting there and wreaking havoc. Rolo struggled to contain guards out on the perimeter and KP although improving at that aspect wasn't great at that either. The one thing Noah is known for is being able to switch onto guards and do a good job at staying in front of them. The league is turning more into a positionless league and you need guys that can cover multiple spots which Rolo showed he couldn't do last year. Noah when he's good and healthy can.

Robin was great for us and I really liked him, but he had a lot of holes in his game. He was helpless in defending certain bigs who liked to shoot from in close -- for example, his brother Brooke. As you pointed out, he wasn't able to jump out and defend help on the perimeter. His offensive game was limited, but his passing was only adequate. He was not nearly as mobile as Noah. I'm looking to see an improvement at this position this year.

Don't forget about Vucevic on Orlando. He used to feast on Robin like he was some bomb ass left overs

[BKlutch]

This is where I disagree. It was obvious last year that once he got hurt the Bulls defense fell to shambles. Basketball Reference has his DBPM at 4.3 last year which is in line with his prime years. Also the Bulls defensive rating when he was on the floor was 101.9. When he was off the floor? 107.5 also according to basketball reference. There is overwhelming evidence that when Joakim Noah is on the floor he is still a very good defender and probably better or at least more versatile than Robin Lopez on that end. I think even schematically he makes more sense defensively next to Kristaps than Robin Lopez. Even though the Knicks were great at protecting the rim they could do nothing to prevent teams from getting there and wreaking havoc. Rolo struggled to contain guards out on the perimeter and KP although improving at that aspect wasn't great at that either. The one thing Noah is known for is being able to switch onto guards and do a good job at staying in front of them. The league is turning more into a positionless league and you need guys that can cover multiple spots which Rolo showed he couldn't do last year. Noah when he's good and healthy can.

Robin was great for us and I really liked him, but he had a lot of holes in his game. He was helpless in defending certain bigs who liked to shoot from in close -- for example, his brother Brooke. As you pointed out, he wasn't able to jump out and defend help on the perimeter. His offensive game was limited, but his passing was only adequate. He was not nearly as mobile as Noah. I'm looking to see an improvement at this position this year.

Don't forget about Vucevic on Orlando. He used to feast on Robin like he was some bomb ass left overs

Right - I couldn't remember his name, but what he did to Robin really hurt to watch. Noah would defend him a lot differently and make him look like the average center he really is.

[Phish Tank]

i actually hate Pelton's article on ESPN more than Smitty's since his just takes numbers from the past and doesn't even consider anything such as feel of game or anything of that nature.

Smitty's overemphasizes draft picks and the process of rebuilding and team building too. Only real difference is that he's watched more games this summer and the last than Pelton ever has in his lifetime.

The reality is (this is to Smitty) that there was no way the Knicks were getting an A this offseason had they just sat pat. No way, nil, none, whatsoever. No FA would be here.... none