Knicks-OKC PG Thread

[Jay10]

Carmelo believes every time he touches the ball he has to score.

He tries to create all his shots in the isolation when all he has to do is pass the ball, and let his teammate give him the ball when he gets into a better position to score.

[KnicksGod]

Carmelo believes every time he touches the ball he has to score.

He tries to create all his shots in the isolation when all he has to do is pass the ball, and let his teammate give him the ball when he gets into a better position to score.

He ultimately is a simple guy -- get the score and go the other way, and he thinks 'I'm good at getting scores, certainly better than [the guy I could pass to right now but won't].'

He's a good passer and tries to mix it up, but he doesn't really have that innate sense of when to do it. It's a feel for the game, nothing that can be measured probably. He doesn't know when/how to shift between the handoff and the score. Somebody said it well earlier -- he is either in score more, most often, or in pass mode, the other times. He can't really blend them.

I take the controversial opinion that some scores are counterproductive. So to take my example with Melo above, if Melo looks off his teammates and gets hot and goes on a run, that looks great, and it may work out if it energizes the team (this definitely has happened). But if he makes a single score on one possession, you may very well be better off with good ball movement on that same possession that results in, say, a blown layup.

Ball movement and a miss (0-1) can be more helpful to your team than no ball movement and an iso score (1-1). You're sometimes literally better off missing off movement, because everyone is involved, and if you keep going, it's the better LONG-term strategy for that game, for the season, for a long-term chance at going deep in the playoffs.

Not always. Sometimes you're better off just isolating. But it's a mix and match and it takes a good coach and smart players to know where the balance is. It's why LeBron's teams all succeed. He has them working this to perfection all the time. He just has a feel for it, and Melo doesn't. I don't think you can teach it either.

I think Melo would laugh off the idea that you are better off missing on a possession than scoring. He wouldn't buy into that. But I really believe it. Move the ball the right way and you will eventually break the D's back. Score in isolation, particularly early in the game, and you may grind the whole thing to a halt later in the game when you need ball movement. Fool's gold.

But there are times where Melo can just stop lol. Just stop shooting if you're way off. Start there.

[Johnny Hoops]

Melo's assists down -36% so far this year with more talent / improved KP around him.

down from 4.2 to 2.6 --- not wasting my time waiting for the bell go on again in this cat's head --- dumb/selfish/meh player.

[Johnny Hoops]

Carmelo believes every time he touches the ball he has to score.

He tries to create all his shots in the isolation when all he has to do is pass the ball, and let his teammate give him the ball when he gets into a better position to score.

He ultimately is a simple guy -- get the score and go the other way, and he thinks 'I'm good at getting scores, certainly better than [the guy I could pass to right now but won't].'

He's a good passer and tries to mix it up, but he doesn't really have that innate sense of when to do it. It's a feel for the game, nothing that can be measured probably. He doesn't know when/how to shift between the handoff and the score. Somebody said it well earlier -- he is either in score more, most often, or in pass mode, the other times. He can't really blend them.

I take the controversial opinion that some scores are counterproductive. So to take my example with Melo above, if Melo looks off his teammates and gets hot and goes on a run, that looks great, and it may work out if it energizes the team (this definitely has happened). But if he makes a single score on one possession, you may very well be better off with good ball movement on that same possession that results in, say, a blown layup.

Ball movement and a miss (0-1) can be more helpful to your team than no ball movement and an iso score (1-1). You're sometimes literally better off missing off movement, because everyone is involved, and if you keep going, it's the better LONG-term strategy for that game, for the season, for a long-term chance at going deep in the playoffs.

Not always. Sometimes you're better off just isolating. But it's a mix and match and it takes a good coach and smart players to know where the balance is. It's why LeBron's teams all succeed. He has them working this to perfection all the time. He just has a feel for it, and Melo doesn't. I don't think you can teach it either.

I think Melo would laugh off the idea that you are better off missing on a possession than scoring. He wouldn't buy into that. But I really believe it. Move the ball the right way and you will eventually break the D's back. Score in isolation, particularly early in the game, and you may grind the whole thing to a halt later in the game when you need ball movement. Fool's gold.

But there are times where Melo can just stop lol. Just stop shooting if you're way off. Start there.

I think I mostly agree with you --- me personally I don't think ISO is ever a good thing. Sure isolation situations happen but when you have the option of ball/player movement and otherwise choose to go isolation I don't think that is the right move over the long haul. Always go with team concept (ball/player movement to create better shots) -- like you said the other option is Fools Gold.

[KnicksGod]

Carmelo believes every time he touches the ball he has to score.

He tries to create all his shots in the isolation when all he has to do is pass the ball, and let his teammate give him the ball when he gets into a better position to score.

He ultimately is a simple guy -- get the score and go the other way, and he thinks 'I'm good at getting scores, certainly better than [the guy I could pass to right now but won't].'

He's a good passer and tries to mix it up, but he doesn't really have that innate sense of when to do it. It's a feel for the game, nothing that can be measured probably. He doesn't know when/how to shift between the handoff and the score. Somebody said it well earlier -- he is either in score more, most often, or in pass mode, the other times. He can't really blend them.

I take the controversial opinion that some scores are counterproductive. So to take my example with Melo above, if Melo looks off his teammates and gets hot and goes on a run, that looks great, and it may work out if it energizes the team (this definitely has happened). But if he makes a single score on one possession, you may very well be better off with good ball movement on that same possession that results in, say, a blown layup.

Ball movement and a miss (0-1) can be more helpful to your team than no ball movement and an iso score (1-1). You're sometimes literally better off missing off movement, because everyone is involved, and if you keep going, it's the better LONG-term strategy for that game, for the season, for a long-term chance at going deep in the playoffs.

Not always. Sometimes you're better off just isolating. But it's a mix and match and it takes a good coach and smart players to know where the balance is. It's why LeBron's teams all succeed. He has them working this to perfection all the time. He just has a feel for it, and Melo doesn't. I don't think you can teach it either.

I think Melo would laugh off the idea that you are better off missing on a possession than scoring. He wouldn't buy into that. But I really believe it. Move the ball the right way and you will eventually break the D's back. Score in isolation, particularly early in the game, and you may grind the whole thing to a halt later in the game when you need ball movement. Fool's gold.

But there are times where Melo can just stop lol. Just stop shooting if you're way off. Start there.

I think I mostly agree with you --- me personally I don't think ISO is ever a good thing. Sure isolation situations happen but when you have the option of ball/player movement and otherwise choose to go isolation I don't think that is the right move over the long haul. Always go with team concept (ball/player movement to create better shots) -- like you said the other option is Fools Gold.

Well maybe that's just how you describe it. You're pretty much going to have to hit some iso shots in key moments, especially in the playoffs, if you want to win. It should be last resort, but you'll need last resort a lot.

There's also a difference between taking a quick shot early in the clock, without hesitating, and what Melo, and in fairness a lot of scorers, do -- which is hold the ball 2-4 seconds.

They are not the same. Ball movement can lead to early and quick, long shots, as long as decisions are quick. Melo gets a comfort zone in holding the ball and backing down, and he's good at it, but that comfort zone is fairly costly to the team.

Move yourself or the ball. Staying still or mostly in place, dribbling or backing down or just holding it, is very tough on everybody you're playing with, and Melo does set up that way a lot.

More importantly, it makes things a lot easier on the D.

[Bill Pidto]

All I know is.. I want to see ball movement as a fan. That brand of basketball is fun to watch for a reason. The baskets made are rewarding to everyone, and it's no coincidence that all the best teams play that way.

We know that even the greatest teams play some 1 on 1 basketball with their best players at times. But when you watch teams like the Warriors or Cavs or Jordan's Bulls, there's still a clear balance in the offense that you can see on the TV screen, and the Knicks still don't have that.

What I'm talking about is not in the numbers. It's aesthetic. It's the way the ball moves when it moves, the way players move without the ball, and how often they mix it up and keep the defense guessing and making mistakes. That feeling that anyone can hurt you at anytime, even when one guy has the hot hand.

Sometimes the Knicks play this way and it's great to see. 5 wins in a row at the Garden saw plenty of glimpses. We saw flashes of it last year as well when Melo earned the nickname Dad Melo. And the Knicks' offense when Kidd and Sheed were in town was brilliant at times and for most of the season.

But it's not enough from Melo. He has too much pull and too much privilege with the franchise to not get it by now and make it a full-time part of his game. And of course KP gets a pass for his shortcomings. He's the golden child, the great hope, the unicorn. And still practically a rookie. Melo is the highly paid veteran all-star with 3 gold medals, and people are looking to him for that "lead by example" approach he always credited himself for. We don't need him to be the vocal guy, we just need him to play the right way all the time.

Ask yourself, what would LeBron do with this Knicks roster? No, Melo doesn't have the power and athleticism and fundamental skills that LeBron has, but there are things LeBron does as the guy with the ball in his hands in the half court that doesn't require any of those traits. He simply keeps everyone involved and makes the right play most of the time, and he uses his ability to draw the defense to him to make that happen. So as someone who does possess the offensive skills that Melo has, and who draws as much attention as Melo does, why not try to replicate that? Is LeBron not the best player in the world? Are the Cavs not the NBA champions??? What's the holdup?

[Johnny Hoops]

All I know is.. I want to see ball movement as a fan. That brand of basketball is fun to watch for a reason. The baskets made are rewarding to everyone, and it's no coincidence that all the best teams play that way.

We know that even the greatest teams play some 1 on 1 basketball with their best players at times. But when you watch teams like the Warriors or Cavs or Jordan's Bulls, there's still a clear balance in the offense that you can see on the TV screen, and the Knicks still don't have that.

What I'm talking about is not in the numbers. It's aesthetic. It's the way the ball moves when it moves, the way players move without the ball, and how often they mix it up and keep the defense guessing and making mistakes. That feeling that anyone can hurt you at anytime, even when one guy has the hot hand.

Sometimes the Knicks play this way and it's great to see. 5 wins in a row at the Garden saw plenty of glimpses. We saw flashes of it last year as well when Melo earned the nickname Dad Melo. And the Knicks' offense when Kidd and Sheed were in town was brilliant at times and for most of the season.

But it's not enough from Melo. He has too much pull and too much privilege with the franchise to not get it by now and make it a full-time part of his game. And of course KP gets a pass for his shortcomings. He's the golden child, the great hope, the unicorn. And still practically a rookie. Melo is the highly paid veteran all-star with 3 gold medals, and people are looking to him for that "lead by example" approach he always credited himself for. We don't need him to be the vocal guy, we just need him to play the right way all the time.

Ask yourself, what would LeBron do with this Knicks roster? No, Melo doesn't have the power and athleticism and fundamental skills that LeBron has, but there are things LeBron does as the guy with the ball in his hands in the half court that doesn't require any of those traits. He simply keeps everyone involved and makes the right play most of the time, and he uses his ability to draw the defense to him to make that happen. So as someone who does possess the offensive skills that Melo has, and who draws as much attention as Melo does, why not try to replicate that? Is LeBron not the best player in the world? Are the Cavs not the NBA champions??? What's the holdup?

Really good post but nobody has the answer on Melo -- best his supporters can give you is he is who he is.

Where is Denny Green "they are who we thought they were" -- when we need him.