Porzingis is playing badly; but no one is talking about it because we're focused on a Melo trade

[DOT]

PER 36:

2015 / 2016

FG%'s are way up... no doubt
FTA: same
OREB: down by 0.5
DREB: down by 1.0
Total REB: down by 1.5
AST: down by 0.2
BLK: down by .4
FOULS: up by .4
Turnovers: down by 0.2

See, most of his stats are the SAME or WORSE as last year. and btw, his usage rate is near identical. 24.6% vs 24.1%.

****, he is indeed worse than last year.

We must get rid of Melo asap!! He will ruin the kid completely..

Won't matter as long as DRose is The starting PG

FG% up by 2.7%
3pt% up by 5%
eFG% up by 5%
PER down by .1
TS%(most important one) up by 4%
He already has more OWS than last year
his Turnover % is down 1.4%
his USG is down .5%

So he's more efficient(offensively) while taking more shots and playing more minutes, he is not worse than last year


Do agree that Rose needs to gtfo, Melo needs to leave for the sake of everybody

[dakomish23]

Anybody else feel WHG is a way better prospect than David Lee was at this stage? I think this kid is far advanced

[Greenie]

The minute the Melo talk flared up last month I began waiting for this thread/discussion to happen because its inevitable with Knicks Fans and media. See, everyone assumes that KP is capable of carrying an offense and thinks all he needs is the space to take his lumps. It doesn't occur to anyone that the potential to be elite (or for those who think he already is elite) and being the focus of an offense doesn't equate to winning. Anthony Davis has been the man on his team and they aint winning anything. KAT is also on a lame team. Remember Blake Griffin? How many times has he been to the finals or out of the 2nd rd? Kyrie Irving, what'd he do before Lebron came to the Cavs? The Greek Freak, yeah his team is definitely winning..oh wait, they're not. John Wall, how's he been? Any finals appearances? Any ECF appearances?

The point is, the idea that you can only develop elite talent (or the best way to do so) is by making them the focus is not true. Guys fail at being THE MAN every day on their teams. Thats usually why players talk about getting pieces placed around them, or move to other teams. KP has only played 1.5 seasons of basketball so far. He doesn't need to be the "built around" by surrounding him with young talent anymore than he needs to be surrounded by only vets. He just needs to win, however that happens. I think him and the knicks will always be better off with Melo because its extremely difficult to find Melo's in the league. Melo is protecting him, shouldering all the burden and criticism. Melo is also STILL the best player on this team and its not even close. I guess Rose would be in that discussion but thats neither here nor there. In 4th quarters, defenses tighten up and when they do, who can get their own shot when running an offense doesn't work? Melo. Don't tell me about how that shouldnt be necessary because its basketball, IT'S ALWAYS NECESSARY. Spurs v Cavs, the other night, guess what the game came down to in the end? Kawhi vs Lebron for stretches in iso basketball. You think Golden State signed KD just to plant him in the corner? Nah, they went after him so that he can be their Kyrie in the 4th since thats what they lacked in the Finals last year. Cavs had bonafide scorers and they didn't. Appreciate having 2 superior talents instead of nitpicking and trying to force 1 out in favor of some fantasy world where 1 young talent can make a team.

first, i agree with everything you said. there's people who just want to get rid of melo because they don't like him or his style of play or whatever. but there is one legit reason to trade melo and that is his age. if you look at where the knicks are currently and their ability to improve the team through trades and free agency, we're not gonna be able to improve much. we just spent 3 years and we've gotten no better. there's no clue that this franchise has the ability to put together a roster that can move forward. there's no clue they can even put together a roster you would want for more than a year. with that in mind, it may be time to move on if you can get something for him.

That's is fair and I agree.

[KnicksGod]

Anybody else feel WHG is a way better prospect than David Lee was at this stage? I think this kid is far advanced

They do share some similarities. I thought of that comparison last night. He's already a better defender.

[god shammgod]

in the early days, david lee had a near rodman like ability to get rebounds. but he had nothing like willy's post moves. willy is a much bigger dude too. and can block shots a little. i don't see that much similarity.

[Greenie]

exaggerate much?

Yep. Player performance is on the player. You can't pull other players into that. Team losses are on the TEAM. No one should ever lay this teams record at a single players feet(even though they do so with Melo). In reality the only thing players can control is how they themselves are playing. Knick fans need to stop with blaming other players for KP's individual play.

We can lump all their asses in together for team losses and it starts on defense. They are a disgrace on that side of the ball. All of them.


KP not being aggressive and settling for long jumpers. Grabbing few rebounds and and getting sonned on defense unless he gets a block is all him. Just like Rose not passing is all him. Just like Melo taking dumb shots and waving off screens is on him. KP ain't got **** to do with that.

I think some of you are missing my point. I am not saying KP is playing well now or is absolved from criticism. I get upset at him for wandering and playing with a lack of fire, but if you watch the games it's clear that he is an afterthought, relatively speaking. Sure he does touch the ball, but how much can he do when he isn't put in a position to succeed. He is playing with two of the most dominant ball stoppers in the entire league, one of whom is the point guard. You say performance is on the player, sure, but do you think KP would be playing this badly if he was playing with Cp3 or any PG with vision? Hell, forget Cp3, if he was playing with Teague, Rubio, etc. he would be playing better.

Your last paragraph proves what I am saying...Rose not passing is on him, Melo taking dumb shots is on him...these two things contribute to KP standing at the 3, being lazy. KP's wandering is the result of Melo and Rose, not the other way around. Also, defensively, KP is playing next to Noah, often times used as a PF, switching on smaller guys. This is a terrible way to use him defensively. Can he improve in that area...absolutely. But as I said yesterday, this roster is terrible for a player like KP. I'm not even worried, as he is 21 and has years ahead of him. Rose will be gone in a few months.

Nah. I won't accept that. Rose ain't stopping Melo from doing anything. Melo ain't stopping Rose. Willy is coming off the bench and being more aggressive. KP standing on the the perimeter is on him especially since we run freedom basketball.

[Phish Tank]

in the early days, david lee had a near rodman like ability to get rebounds. but he had nothing like willy's post moves. willy is a much bigger dude too. and can block shots a little. i don't see that much similarity.

Lee also had a better jumpshot and leaping ability. Also was pretty much a 3/4 for the first few years until D'Antoni moved him to C

[dakomish23]

****, he is indeed worse than last year.

We must get rid of Melo asap!! He will ruin the kid completely..

Won't matter as long as DRose is The starting PG

FG% up by 2.7%
3pt% up by 5%
eFG% up by 5%
PER down by .1
TS%(most important one) up by 4%
He already has more OWS than last year
his Turnover % is down 1.4%
his USG is down .5%

So he's more efficient(offensively) while taking more shots and playing more minutes, he is not worse than last year


Do agree that Rose needs to gtfo, Melo needs to leave for the sake of everybody

I'm in no way saying he's worse. I just think the kid's potential will be wasted as long as DRose is his starting PG. he's just not the guy this kid needs.

[HEZI]

Look, we can agree to disagree on the whole Ball v KP thing, neither one of us is gonna change the others mind. What I was saying was that KP's only been in the league a year and a half, is only 21, but you already wanna move on from him, which makes you impatient, which is the exact line of thinking that led to Isiah
Also KP has been pretty crap in January, but every player goes through bad stretches. I'm not ready to give up on him just yet

No you are twisting it all around. I never said I want to move him just for the sake of moving him. I was talking about moving him for a better, younger, more talented prospect. I didn't say I want to trade him for some NBA veteran, so don't compare that to some Isiah move, this is completely different. I'm not impatient with him, I just like the other player more, it's that simple.

You like Ball better than KP, I get it, and I disagree. I can understand why you like him more, and I'll agree to disagree with you on it. You're missing my point. The point is that we have no idea how either one will turn out, but we have KP, and you want to exchange him for someone even more unproven on the chance that he might turn out better, which is being impatient. If we went to Boston and asked them for the BKN pick for KP they take it in a heartbeat, because we have seen that KP can at least stay on the court in the league, and is one of the better players at his position, and already top 50 or so. KP is a more proven talent while Ball is a bigger gamble, as we have no clue how he'll do once he gets drafted. Everyone wanted Mudiay over KP, and were mad when we fell to 4th because we couldn't get D'Angelo, who was a superstar in college. I'm not saying any of the above are busts, just that KP is widely regarded (by a lot of people who know a lot more about basketball than you and me combined) to be worth more than them.
I honestly hope for the best for Ball, and if I had to choose a player to draft, its him, but right now, KP is my dude, and we'll have to wait a decade to be able to say for sure who's better

That's where we disagree. The same holes that were pointed out about KP before he got into the league are still present there today, I've seen very little improvement in his game from last year to this year. I don't need to wait a decade to know which player is better right now.

[DOT]

Won't matter as long as DRose is The starting PG

FG% up by 2.7%
3pt% up by 5%
eFG% up by 5%
PER down by .1
TS%(most important one) up by 4%
He already has more OWS than last year
his Turnover % is down 1.4%
his USG is down .5%

So he's more efficient(offensively) while taking more shots and playing more minutes, he is not worse than last year


Do agree that Rose needs to gtfo, Melo needs to leave for the sake of everybody

I'm in no way saying he's worse. I just think the kid's potential will be wasted as long as DRose is his starting PG. he's just not the guy this kid needs.

Fair point. I was more talking to Hammer about him being worse

[F N 11]

Anybody else feel WHG is a way better prospect than David Lee was at this stage? I think this kid is far advanced

Shallow water was a beast and a better passer i think. Lee knew how to get his though. WHG can grow. Just half of the season and he has already shown improvements to his jumper.

[dakomish23]

Anybody else feel WHG is a way better prospect than David Lee was at this stage? I think this kid is far advanced

They do share some similarities. I thought of that comparison last night. He's already a better defender.

Idk about in space but rim protection wise, Lee makes WHG look like Mutumbo

[DOT]

No you are twisting it all around. I never said I want to move him just for the sake of moving him. I was talking about moving him for a better, younger, more talented prospect. I didn't say I want to trade him for some NBA veteran, so don't compare that to some Isiah move, this is completely different. I'm not impatient with him, I just like the other player more, it's that simple.

You like Ball better than KP, I get it, and I disagree. I can understand why you like him more, and I'll agree to disagree with you on it. You're missing my point. The point is that we have no idea how either one will turn out, but we have KP, and you want to exchange him for someone even more unproven on the chance that he might turn out better, which is being impatient. If we went to Boston and asked them for the BKN pick for KP they take it in a heartbeat, because we have seen that KP can at least stay on the court in the league, and is one of the better players at his position, and already top 50 or so. KP is a more proven talent while Ball is a bigger gamble, as we have no clue how he'll do once he gets drafted. Everyone wanted Mudiay over KP, and were mad when we fell to 4th because we couldn't get D'Angelo, who was a superstar in college. I'm not saying any of the above are busts, just that KP is widely regarded (by a lot of people who know a lot more about basketball than you and me combined) to be worth more than them.
I honestly hope for the best for Ball, and if I had to choose a player to draft, its him, but right now, KP is my dude, and we'll have to wait a decade to be able to say for sure who's better

That's where we disagree. The same holes that were pointed out about KP before he got into the league are still present there today, I've seen very little improvement in his game from last year to this year. I don't need to wait a decade to know which player is better right now.

He's been in the league a year and a half
This is what I'm talking about. Kid was supposed to be at this point in like 3 years, yet he's already far above expectations. I honestly don't know what you thought would happen over the offseason, but it takes more than a season and a half. And while his game is the same this year as last year, he's scoring more points more efficiently on a slightly lower usage rate. So he has improved

[HEZI]

You like Ball better than KP, I get it, and I disagree. I can understand why you like him more, and I'll agree to disagree with you on it. You're missing my point. The point is that we have no idea how either one will turn out, but we have KP, and you want to exchange him for someone even more unproven on the chance that he might turn out better, which is being impatient. If we went to Boston and asked them for the BKN pick for KP they take it in a heartbeat, because we have seen that KP can at least stay on the court in the league, and is one of the better players at his position, and already top 50 or so. KP is a more proven talent while Ball is a bigger gamble, as we have no clue how he'll do once he gets drafted. Everyone wanted Mudiay over KP, and were mad when we fell to 4th because we couldn't get D'Angelo, who was a superstar in college. I'm not saying any of the above are busts, just that KP is widely regarded (by a lot of people who know a lot more about basketball than you and me combined) to be worth more than them.
I honestly hope for the best for Ball, and if I had to choose a player to draft, its him, but right now, KP is my dude, and we'll have to wait a decade to be able to say for sure who's better

That's where we disagree. The same holes that were pointed out about KP before he got into the league are still present there today, I've seen very little improvement in his game from last year to this year. I don't need to wait a decade to know which player is better right now.

He's been in the league a year and a half
This is what I'm talking about. Kid was supposed to be at this point in like 3 years, yet he's already far above expectations. I honestly don't know what you thought would happen over the offseason, but it takes more than a season and a half. And while his game is the same this year as last year, he's scoring more points more efficiently on a slightly lower usage rate. So he has improved

He's getting more minutes and taking more shots. That's about the only difference.

[DOT]

That's where we disagree. The same holes that were pointed out about KP before he got into the league are still present there today, I've seen very little improvement in his game from last year to this year. I don't need to wait a decade to know which player is better right now.

He's been in the league a year and a half
This is what I'm talking about. Kid was supposed to be at this point in like 3 years, yet he's already far above expectations. I honestly don't know what you thought would happen over the offseason, but it takes more than a season and a half. And while his game is the same this year as last year, he's scoring more points more efficiently on a slightly lower usage rate. So he has improved

He's getting more minutes and taking more shots. That's about the only difference.

And making them more efficiently, all his shooting splits have improved, which normally doesn't happen when you take more shots

[Phish Tank]

Few things:

A lot of his defensive outburst early on was because he was defending the paint more often. Most of his blocks came from within a few feet of the paint. Also, most of his defensive energy was when RoLo was NOT on the floor.... watch the tape. He played defense when RoLo wasn't on the floor with us. When he was on the floor, he'd fade away. This season, less players are attempting to drive on KP. Also, we're playing big way too often, leaving KP outmatched on the perimeter against stretch 4s. It killed him last year and is killing him this year too. He needs to guard centers and put Noah on the bench -> or at least have the other big guard the 4. Last year, Lance Thomas helped cover some of Melo's defensive deficiencies, allowing KP to play at the 5 and defend big men. That's not there his year.

On offense, they're pretty much force feeding him. He's actually better compared to last year due to sheer volume and playing time. He can get his shot off. However, he spends too much time shooting perimeter shots and not enough time destroying the defense in the paint or drawing fouls. Part of that's on KP because he needs to get better positioning and must try to demand the ball in the post. The real problem though is offensive philosophy. Jeff's not running plays anymore and no beat writer has called him out on it. No plays = KP iso = FAIL.

Obviously, strength will have to play a huge role coming forth, but KP's gotta play more inside out. He needs to be average 7-8 FTs a game at the minimum in his prime.

[dakomish23]

in the early days, david lee had a near rodman like ability to get rebounds. but he had nothing like willy's post moves. willy is a much bigger dude too. and can block shots a little. i don't see that much similarity.

Yeah they're not similar except in the rebounding ability and doing great in PnR situations.

Just comparing as prospects. I think WHG is wayyyy better

[HEZI]

He's been in the league a year and a half
This is what I'm talking about. Kid was supposed to be at this point in like 3 years, yet he's already far above expectations. I honestly don't know what you thought would happen over the offseason, but it takes more than a season and a half. And while his game is the same this year as last year, he's scoring more points more efficiently on a slightly lower usage rate. So he has improved

He's getting more minutes and taking more shots. That's about the only difference.

And making them more efficiently, all his shooting splits have improved, which normally doesn't happen when you take more shots

Like I said, very little improvement

[yankeefan1024]

If KP really isn't the centerpiece that many are proclaiming, then it becomes even more imperative that we deal the vets and tank now. When the time comes when KP is alone here, and he's only getting us 35 to 40 wins like we are now, then we are looking at another decade of irrelevance.

dude what are you talking about? we cant even get 40 wins with melo how the hell are we gonna get that with just KP? you guys are really delusional lol

[Side beard]

If KP didn't suck ass and averaged at least 20/10/2bl team wouldn't be soon to be behind Sixers in the standings.
I dont know if its his shot, legs or just overall mentality that bothers him to take it to the next level, but it becomes really frustrating to watch how he plays and acts like second string player.