Porzingis is playing badly; but no one is talking about it because we're focused on a Melo trade

[NoStatsGuy]

really worried about KP's body. and absolutely agree with OP bashing its own players i one thing i really hate and rarely do. but i got used to it, especially on this board

[yankeefan1024]

Sure you can pick and choose which stats to use. Points are up, %'s up, 3p makes up, turnovers down. Yes, the improvement isn't incredibly drastic, but you're sort of proving my point. The stats you used are BARELY down, and yet he is still putting up excellent numbers as a 21 year old playing with two INSANELY ball dominant players, one of whom is his point guard playing for a contract. Wouldn't you rather him take his lumps and improve as the guy over being the third option with two guys who have no desire to pass the ball? I'm not a fan of Bill Simmons but his tweets last night were totally on point. KP is being marginalized and it sucks. Again, I would much rather see us win 25 games and have KP be the focal point than have Melo and win 35. It's not even close.

How is KP being marginalized? You're proving my point. He's putting up these stats with 2 other ball dominant guys who other teams game plan to stop MUCH MORE than they do KP. KP is completely reliant on the play of others to create shots for him at this point in his career. Which is fine, but that doesn't mean "oh if you remove the guys holding the ball from him, he'd be better"... No actually he'd be EXPOSED because as some have realized he cannot create his shot for $h1t, or take any kind of advantage of mismatches.

How is he being marginalized? Watch the games. How many times does Melo get the ball in the post and...and that's it, it stays there. How many times does Rose barrel into the defense with his head down and refuses to pass to KP if he is open. It happens ALL the time, and it's even more egregious in the 4th quarter. Make no mistake about it, Melo is a black hole and Rose has no PG skills and is playing for a contract. Also, as to your point about us being closer to the 6th seed as we are a top 5 pick, that's not true, we are closer to the 5th spot that Dallas owns. Also, we are trending in the direction of the lottery. You say, wouldn't it be better to make the playoffs...but that's the thing, we are not making the playoffs. What good does that do? So we can get bounced in 4 by the Cavs or Raptors? A waste. That's the band-aid type of rebuilding that doesn't work. You're saying KP is not a true centerpiece...how in the world can you possibly know this? He's 21...21...would you say Giannis, Kawhi, Curry, Harden are centerpieces? Because they had worse seasons as 21 year olds than KP is having NOW. Show a little patience. I'm not one who thinks, oh playoff experience will do wonders. You really think that Melo and Rose chucking in the playoffs would do KP ANY good? I doubt it. You made too many points to respond to here, but I think you're just showing a lack of patience and vision for the future. Did you agree KP wasn't ready for a bigger role before this slump? During December when he was playing great basketball?

I see what you're saying about the ISO stuff I really do. However, what has KP shown you that indicates he's ready to be more ball dominant? I'm honestly not trying to troll or play devil's advocate even... I'm seriously asking you?

What I see is a guy who's at his best when he is cutting to the basket off passes, or picking and popping for wide open 3's when teams converge on melo or rose. What I also see is teams playing their point guards or shooting guards (Shroeder, Smart) on Porzingis 10-15 feet away from the basket, and I see Porzingis getting pushed around, unable to even hit a simple bank shot over their heads (he's like quite literally 8 to 12 inches taller than these guys)... He has extremely limited dribbling ability, gets stripped very often, and his "moves" are done extremely slowly and methodically, and also, are extremely limited in terms of variety. I do watch the games, every game, actually, so in all seriousness, can you tell me 1 thing that isn't true in this paragraph? And a follow up question, what reasons do you see that KP has shown any indication of being able to excel with more ball dominance and usage rate?

[shtolky]

If KP didn't suck ass and averaged at least 20/10/2bl team wouldn't be soon to be behind Sixers in the standings.
I dont know if its his shot, legs or just overall mentality that bothers him to take it to the next level, but it becomes really frustrating to watch how he plays and acts like second string player.

Only five guys in the entire league are averaging 20 and 10, and now he has to be averaging that "at least?" Geez...

[HEZI]

Unicorn
PorzinGod
Best Knicks draft pick since Ewing

We say all these things but then complain when big things are expected from him

[yankeefan1024]

The minute the Melo talk flared up last month I began waiting for this thread/discussion to happen because its inevitable with Knicks Fans and media. See, everyone assumes that KP is capable of carrying an offense and thinks all he needs is the space to take his lumps. It doesn't occur to anyone that the potential to be elite (or for those who think he already is elite) and being the focus of an offense doesn't equate to winning. Anthony Davis has been the man on his team and they aint winning anything. KAT is also on a lame team. Remember Blake Griffin? How many times has he been to the finals or out of the 2nd rd? Kyrie Irving, what'd he do before Lebron came to the Cavs? The Greek Freak, yeah his team is definitely winning..oh wait, they're not. John Wall, how's he been? Any finals appearances? Any ECF appearances?

The point is, the idea that you can only develop elite talent (or the best way to do so) is by making them the focus is not true. Guys fail at being THE MAN every day on their teams. Thats usually why players talk about getting pieces placed around them, or move to other teams. KP has only played 1.5 seasons of basketball so far. He doesn't need to be the "built around" by surrounding him with young talent anymore than he needs to be surrounded by only vets. He just needs to win, however that happens. I think him and the knicks will always be better off with Melo because its extremely difficult to find Melo's in the league. Melo is protecting him, shouldering all the burden and criticism. Melo is also STILL the best player on this team and its not even close. I guess Rose would be in that discussion but thats neither here nor there. In 4th quarters, defenses tighten up and when they do, who can get their own shot when running an offense doesn't work? Melo. Don't tell me about how that shouldnt be necessary because its basketball, IT'S ALWAYS NECESSARY. Spurs v Cavs, the other night, guess what the game came down to in the end? Kawhi vs Lebron for stretches in iso basketball. You think Golden State signed KD just to plant him in the corner? Nah, they went after him so that he can be their Kyrie in the 4th since thats what they lacked in the Finals last year. Cavs had bonafide scorers and they didn't. Appreciate having 2 superior talents instead of nitpicking and trying to force 1 out in favor of some fantasy world where 1 young talent can make a team.

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. All the people that think so many other players are better than Melo, at the end of the day, it comes down to who can hit big buckets and get their shot off in half court, slow down basketball. And like you said, not many do it better than Melo. EVERY Knicks fan will realize just how much we will be missing that once he's gone

[DOT]

He's getting more minutes and taking more shots. That's about the only difference.

And making them more efficiently, all his shooting splits have improved, which normally doesn't happen when you take more shots

Like I said, very little improvement

Eh, I see a decent amount of improvement. Hell, someone brought up Giannis's stats, who was also incredibly raw and a prospect, and he didn't improve much his first to second year, and it wasn't until his fourth year (this year) that he really broke out

[Side beard]

If KP didn't suck ass and averaged at least 20/10/2bl team wouldn't be soon to be behind Sixers in the standings.
I dont know if its his shot, legs or just overall mentality that bothers him to take it to the next level, but it becomes really frustrating to watch how he plays and acts like second string player.

Only five guys in the entire league are averaging 20 and 10, and now he has to be averaging that "at least?" Geez...

He averaged 20 for first 20-25 maybe bit more games. He is 7'3 and lets many rebounds out of his hands. With playing 35 minutes a game there is no way he wouldn't get 10.

[HEZI]

And making them more efficiently, all his shooting splits have improved, which normally doesn't happen when you take more shots

Like I said, very little improvement

Eh, I see a decent amount of improvement. Hell, someone brought up Giannis's stats, who was also incredibly raw and a prospect, and he didn't improve much his first to second year, and it wasn't until his fourth year (this year) that he really broke out

No doubt

I expect Porzingis to improve by year 4 also

[whocares1]

Unicorn
PorzinGod
Best Knicks draft pick since Ewing

We say all these things but then complain when big things are expected from him

He IS the best draft pick since Ewing. Why should a big be condemned for needing a point guard to help him score? I don't get why that's such an outrage. He is too skinny to have an efficient post game.

[shtolky]

How is KP being marginalized? You're proving my point. He's putting up these stats with 2 other ball dominant guys who other teams game plan to stop MUCH MORE than they do KP. KP is completely reliant on the play of others to create shots for him at this point in his career. Which is fine, but that doesn't mean "oh if you remove the guys holding the ball from him, he'd be better"... No actually he'd be EXPOSED because as some have realized he cannot create his shot for $h1t, or take any kind of advantage of mismatches.

How is he being marginalized? Watch the games. How many times does Melo get the ball in the post and...and that's it, it stays there. How many times does Rose barrel into the defense with his head down and refuses to pass to KP if he is open. It happens ALL the time, and it's even more egregious in the 4th quarter. Make no mistake about it, Melo is a black hole and Rose has no PG skills and is playing for a contract. Also, as to your point about us being closer to the 6th seed as we are a top 5 pick, that's not true, we are closer to the 5th spot that Dallas owns. Also, we are trending in the direction of the lottery. You say, wouldn't it be better to make the playoffs...but that's the thing, we are not making the playoffs. What good does that do? So we can get bounced in 4 by the Cavs or Raptors? A waste. That's the band-aid type of rebuilding that doesn't work. You're saying KP is not a true centerpiece...how in the world can you possibly know this? He's 21...21...would you say Giannis, Kawhi, Curry, Harden are centerpieces? Because they had worse seasons as 21 year olds than KP is having NOW. Show a little patience. I'm not one who thinks, oh playoff experience will do wonders. You really think that Melo and Rose chucking in the playoffs would do KP ANY good? I doubt it. You made too many points to respond to here, but I think you're just showing a lack of patience and vision for the future. Did you agree KP wasn't ready for a bigger role before this slump? During December when he was playing great basketball?

I see what you're saying about the ISO stuff I really do. However, what has KP shown you that indicates he's ready to be more ball dominant? I'm honestly not trying to troll or play devil's advocate even... I'm seriously asking you?

What I see is a guy who's at his best when he is cutting to the basket off passes, or picking and popping for wide open 3's when teams converge on melo or rose. What I also see is teams playing their point guards or shooting guards (Shroeder, Smart) on Porzingis 10-15 feet away from the basket, and I see Porzingis getting pushed around, unable to even hit a simple bank shot over their heads (he's like quite literally 8 to 12 inches taller than these guys)... He has extremely limited dribbling ability, gets stripped very often, and his "moves" are done extremely slowly and methodically, and also, are extremely limited in terms of variety. I do watch the games, every game, actually, so in all seriousness, can you tell me 1 thing that isn't true in this paragraph? And a follow up question, what reasons do you see that KP has shown any indication of being able to excel with more ball dominance and usage rate?

I know you aren't trolling, I appreciate the discussion. I am not even saying he is ready to be more ball dominant, but I would much prefer we find out NOW (or at least start preparing him for that role) as opposed to just rolling with Melo, contending for that 8th seed. He is averaging 11 shots a game this month...that's just flat out unacceptable. Also, I am not even saying I want him to be touching the ball as if he were a Westbrook or a Harden, but he HAS to be more involved in the offense. What is he supposed to do when we dump it down to Melo and everyone just stands around. Seriously what is he supposed to do, run over to Melo screaming, snatching the ball away? Is he supposed to help Rose grow an extra set of eyes so he can actually pass the ball well? Hell, run a Rose/KP PnR and force the D to react, not the other way around. Also, KP has shown a clear ability to hit bank shots over smaller guys, but he is not being put in a position to succeed, that is my main issue. How is he supposed to improve as a basketball player when his team is built for him to wander outside the 3? The ball dominance, fine, imagine I never said that (I'm not sure I even said I wanted him my ball dominant, I want him more INVOLVED), what I am saying still stands. I just think sometimes people have a short memory, in December none of this was an issue because he was more involved. The KP pick and roll with whomever was working like a charm, the ball was moving (how many times do we hear Breen and Clyde complain about the ball sticking, MULTIPLE times a game), and he wasn't just an afterthought. Sometimes just being more involved makes you play better, more motivated, more likely to be active. It's why the Spurs succeed. Look at their talent? They have guys contributing because the ball doesn't stick, the PG passes, the ball moves. I don't want KP handling the ball a ton, I want him to be utilized, that's really it. I am not comparing Lebron to ANYONE on our team, but he always gets the best out of his role players because he keeps them involved. KP clearly knows that once Melo gets the ISO, or Rose does his head down dribbling stuff, he's out of the offense.

[shtolky]

If KP didn't suck ass and averaged at least 20/10/2bl team wouldn't be soon to be behind Sixers in the standings.
I dont know if its his shot, legs or just overall mentality that bothers him to take it to the next level, but it becomes really frustrating to watch how he plays and acts like second string player.

Only five guys in the entire league are averaging 20 and 10, and now he has to be averaging that "at least?" Geez...

He averaged 20 for first 20-25 maybe bit more games. He is 7'3 and lets many rebounds out of his hands. With playing 35 minutes a game there is no way he wouldn't get 10.

I am simply pointing out that it's very difficult to average 20 and 10, especially for a 21 year old, and you want him averaging that "at least."

[DOT]

Like I said, very little improvement

Eh, I see a decent amount of improvement. Hell, someone brought up Giannis's stats, who was also incredibly raw and a prospect, and he didn't improve much his first to second year, and it wasn't until his fourth year (this year) that he really broke out

No doubt

I expect Porzingis to improve by year 4 also

He'll improve a lot next year when we get him that young playmaking pg with our top 5 pick

[ChaosHamster]

If KP didn't suck ass and averaged at least 20/10/2bl team wouldn't be soon to be behind Sixers in the standings.
I dont know if its his shot, legs or just overall mentality that bothers him to take it to the next level, but it becomes really frustrating to watch how he plays and acts like second string player.

Only five guys in the entire league are averaging 20 and 10, and now he has to be averaging that "at least?" Geez...

He averaged 20 for first 20-25 maybe bit more games. He is 7'3 and lets many rebounds out of his hands. With playing 35 minutes a game there is no way he wouldn't get 10.

He is actually decent rebounder for PF..

Of course, he could be better being 7'3.

His issue is he doesn't get a lot of uncontested rebounds.

http://stats.nba.com/players/rebounding/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=F&sort=REB_CONTEST&dir=1

[dakomish23]

Anybody else feel WHG is a way better prospect than David Lee was at this stage? I think this kid is far advanced

Shallow water was a beast and a better passer i think. Lee knew how to get his though. WHG can grow. Just half of the season and he has already shown improvements to his jumper.

Auto correct?



WHG jumper coming around is just more proof that this kid should be getting 25-30 MPG without question.

[Greenie]

wow so, its Melo and Drose fault that KP is playing worse than last season. OK, the unreasonable hate people have for some players just colors everything. The KP Stans are starting to remind of of the damn Jeremy Lin era.

Yep. Already said it.

[Marty McFly]

that's the problem with some people on this board. it's as if context isn't important when they're arguing against a point. and that goes for certain "groups" who call themselves " fans" whether that's stannin for one player or another.

[vallen]

now were comparing him o Giannis ? a 15th project pick who was either going to pan out, or not pan out. wow he really is playing badly.

i think he will be a good player, but this board has a habit of over-rating their own. no way KP was going to have a sophmores chance in hell with a Rose/Melo led team. and until that changes, his growth will be limited...

[Side beard]

Only five guys in the entire league are averaging 20 and 10, and now he has to be averaging that "at least?" Geez...

He averaged 20 for first 20-25 maybe bit more games. He is 7'3 and lets many rebounds out of his hands. With playing 35 minutes a game there is no way he wouldn't get 10.

I am simply pointing out that it's very difficult to average 20 and 10, especially for a 21 year old, and you want him averaging that "at least."

Yes. He averages 19/7 right now. That is 1/3 more per game. How is that impossible task to achieve for this giant? While Rose isn't the best playmaking guard, KP had this nice stretch where he got his 25 points with limited shots. KOQ, Billy and pretty much any other back up player to Noah or KP tends to get more boards in their limited minutes than Kris.

[Greenie]

A lot of what you're seeing is coaches catering to players who have clout. They don't want to make them unhappy or hold them accountable for not conforming to team needs. So they let those guys do them and coach around it. So not to upset them.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I don't see that. Horn has benched vets(Lee) and taken away playing time from them in favor of younger players.

The issue is he doesn't stick with it. He runs his rotation in a circle.

[HEZI]

Unicorn
PorzinGod
Best Knicks draft pick since Ewing

We say all these things but then complain when big things are expected from him

He IS the best draft pick since Ewing. Why should a big be condemned for needing a point guard to help him score? I don't get why that's such an outrage. He is too skinny to have an efficient post game.

There is nothing wrong with it, it just proves he's not that good. Rik Smits 2.0

Good player but not a franchise player