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Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe

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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#161 » by FKF » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:46 pm

Greenie wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:To use a variation of Remy's verse.....

"To win a trade, you would have to actually win'.

Both teams lost when seeing the book read. Gallo and Chandler are complimentary pieces, they were assets though, if they were the bums that folks wanna say they are then how did we get Melo? or perhaps we paid what Melo is actually worth?

Anyway, the Knicks really haven't been anywhere close to nice, solid or even good during any period of Melo's tenure.

3 playoff appearances.....one series win against a really old Boston team that somehow stretched a sweep to 6 games.

Funny thing is, I can recall H20's game winner, LJ's 4pt play, I can't recall not one series marking play from Melo resulting in the Knicks winning a series. To be fair I do recall Melo dunking on Jeff Pendergraph, but the Knicks lost that series. That dunk was nasty btw for some of you don't recall, and kinda why I wasn't buying the sore shoulder nonsense. Bum shoulders don't do that.

Sure, it's a team game, and perhaps the Knicks should have built better, but that "team game" never applies when cats wanna claim Melo carried Denver to the playoffs every year. He didn't. Even in his first year, he shared a court with 4 other players averaging double figure scoring, most notably Andre Miller who joined Denver the same year Melo did. He had help. Denver had a high scoring offense nearly every year, the bulk of the individual scoring came from Melo, but those teams had capable guys to put up points...every single year. What Denver never had was a commitment to defense.

Melo was the best player during those years, no denying that, but being the best player limited Denver nearly every year to being a low seed, playoff flameout, that did not lose to the champs every year either. Same scenario played as a Knick.

Melo is pretty much the Dominique Wilkins of todays NBA. Terrific scoring option, lock for HOF, will normally light up the defender, but cant be the top guy if winning something significant matter, because he, like Nique never gave a consistent effort in the aspects of the game that the winner do. Nique was the SF version of MJ without any of MJ's winning traits, similar to Melo being the SF version of version without any of the traits that made Kobe a winner.

It aint about scoring, there's been tons of high volume scorers, but the better players, the one's who truly carry teams significantly all do the other aspects that result in memorable playoff wins. They fill up a stat sheet, and perform on both ends of the court.

Enough of the who won the trade. Both team lost. Knicks still doing so.

I remember our playoff series. I remember that dunk. I remember his play against Boston. But what overshadowes those memories are the bad ones. JR elbowing people, STAT fuqing up his hand, Lin being at 85% so on and so on


So now it's JR fault the Knicks lost two games to Boston, and couldn't make it past Indiana ?
If not for Shumpert stealing and laying in in transition, stopping the bleeding, those Knicks probably lose game 6.
Also LeBron says hi, I took JR to the Finals twice.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#162 » by Greenie » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:50 pm

battabing10 wrote:
Greenie wrote:
battabing10 wrote:
so ya cut off ya nose to spite ya face?!? okaayyyy :roll:




My face is just fine. Yours?


melting.



Not good. Put some shea butter on it.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#163 » by Greenie » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:54 pm

FKF wrote:
Greenie wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:To use a variation of Remy's verse.....

"To win a trade, you would have to actually win'.

Both teams lost when seeing the book read. Gallo and Chandler are complimentary pieces, they were assets though, if they were the bums that folks wanna say they are then how did we get Melo? or perhaps we paid what Melo is actually worth?

Anyway, the Knicks really haven't been anywhere close to nice, solid or even good during any period of Melo's tenure.

3 playoff appearances.....one series win against a really old Boston team that somehow stretched a sweep to 6 games.

Funny thing is, I can recall H20's game winner, LJ's 4pt play, I can't recall not one series marking play from Melo resulting in the Knicks winning a series. To be fair I do recall Melo dunking on Jeff Pendergraph, but the Knicks lost that series. That dunk was nasty btw for some of you don't recall, and kinda why I wasn't buying the sore shoulder nonsense. Bum shoulders don't do that.

Sure, it's a team game, and perhaps the Knicks should have built better, but that "team game" never applies when cats wanna claim Melo carried Denver to the playoffs every year. He didn't. Even in his first year, he shared a court with 4 other players averaging double figure scoring, most notably Andre Miller who joined Denver the same year Melo did. He had help. Denver had a high scoring offense nearly every year, the bulk of the individual scoring came from Melo, but those teams had capable guys to put up points...every single year. What Denver never had was a commitment to defense.

Melo was the best player during those years, no denying that, but being the best player limited Denver nearly every year to being a low seed, playoff flameout, that did not lose to the champs every year either. Same scenario played as a Knick.

Melo is pretty much the Dominique Wilkins of todays NBA. Terrific scoring option, lock for HOF, will normally light up the defender, but cant be the top guy if winning something significant matter, because he, like Nique never gave a consistent effort in the aspects of the game that the winner do. Nique was the SF version of MJ without any of MJ's winning traits, similar to Melo being the SF version of version without any of the traits that made Kobe a winner.

It aint about scoring, there's been tons of high volume scorers, but the better players, the one's who truly carry teams significantly all do the other aspects that result in memorable playoff wins. They fill up a stat sheet, and perform on both ends of the court.

Enough of the who won the trade. Both team lost. Knicks still doing so.

I remember our playoff series. I remember that dunk. I remember his play against Boston. But what overshadowes those memories are the bad ones. JR elbowing people, STAT fuqing up his hand, Lin being at 85% so on and so on


So now it's JR fault the Knicks lost two games to Boston, and couldn't make it past Indiana ?
If not for Shumpert stealing and laying in in transition, stopping the bleeding, those Knicks probably lose game 6.
Also LeBron says hi, I took JR to the Finals twice.



Your problem is you're comparing Melo to LeBron.

LeBron also had Irving and Love on the same team. Both players are better than anyone we placed next to Melo.


The year JR got suspended he was the sixth man of the year and our second scorer. That hurt us. That's reality.

Iman is an afterthought right now to me.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#164 » by Thugger HBC » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:02 pm

Melo was part of those bad memories, which is why he has little to zero good memorable memories of his own in the playoffs as a Knick. He absolutely contributed to the losing, and it was easy to see early on.

First year against Boston, 1st game to be exact. Amare beasting 12-18 to be exact, against anyone on the Celtics. Melo nowhere to be found (5-18 to be exact.) How a player of Melo's character can't show up for their 1st playoff game for their new team is astounding.

It isn't always about the supporting cast.
If winning matters, the role shouldn't.....the results should.

The ...02% of the fanbse be like...http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1542565&start=140#start_here
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#165 » by Greenie » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:50 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:Melo was part of those bad memories, which is why he has little to zero good memorable memories of his own in the playoffs as a Knick. He absolutely contributed to the losing, and it was easy to see early on.

First year against Boston, 1st game to be exact. Amare beasting 12-18 to be exact, against anyone on the Celtics. Melo nowhere to be found (5-18 to be exact.) How a player of Melo's character can't show up for their 1st playoff game for their new team is astounding.

It isn't always about the supporting cast.


You are absolutely right. Melo did play a big part in our losses. Never said he didn't. He's a part of the team. I wouldn't say Melo wanted to go 5-18. Would you? Just like STAT didn't mean to pull his back and be out for the rest of that series.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#166 » by seren » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:22 am

Fact is we would never be able to win a championship with Melo. Salary cap, trades that occured prior to and with Melo guaranteed that. However, we should have continued being a playoff team with second round opportunities here and there. It would have required staying the course, ie Melo at four, Chandler at five and lots of shooting around them. Woodson didn't like it. Melo hated it. So the "success" did not last long.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#167 » by FKF » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:43 am

Greenie wrote:
FKF wrote:
Greenie wrote:I remember our playoff series. I remember that dunk. I remember his play against Boston. But what overshadowes those memories are the bad ones. JR elbowing people, STAT fuqing up his hand, Lin being at 85% so on and so on


So now it's JR fault the Knicks lost two games to Boston, and couldn't make it past Indiana ?
If not for Shumpert stealing and laying in in transition, stopping the bleeding, those Knicks probably lose game 6.
Also LeBron says hi, I took JR to the Finals twice.



Your problem is you're comparing Melo to LeBron.

LeBron also had Irving and Love on the same team. Both players are better than anyone we placed next to Melo.


The year JR got suspended he was the sixth man of the year and our second scorer. That hurt us. That's reality.

Iman is an afterthought right now to me.


And yet LeBron have had such supporting cast thanks to himself. No luck.

Because he always made decisions in free agency and never pushed either Miami or Cleveland to trade half the team for him. Even better, he made sure either team got more talent each summer he joined, and kept their assets.

You keep blaming lack of supporting cast for Melo, but he pushed himself into that situation. There's no one else to blame but himself. He did not want the Knicks, he wanted the most money in the strong NY market, even if it meant to play for the Nets.

The Knicks options were therefore a: overpay and take a gamble; or b: pass on Melo and let him be the man at Barclays Center.

Knicks should have picked b but in this business, Dolan didn't want to see the Nets get good ticket sales in an AEG building.

Sports wise, Melo made sense only with a strong cast.

They had to build the oldest cast in the league under smaller deals to get a shot in 2013. Good enough to beat Boston, but that team was just too old to compete versus Indiana or Miami or the West.

Since then they have had a young squad but in either time, because of that trade, Knicks have always had limited options to surround Melo.

This is what kills me when people like you give Melo excuses. Dude deserve no excuse. He can whine all
he want in the media, he controlled our franchise at the top, and is responsible for every minute of those past six years. He couldn't get along with MDA the way Harden does. Now he can whine all he wants about Phil, if he doesn't push for the Denver trade, and just signs here as a FA, Donnie Walsh would probably still be president.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#168 » by Greenie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:38 pm

seren wrote:Fact is we would never be able to win a championship with Melo. Salary cap, trades that occured prior to and with Melo guaranteed that. However, we should have continued being a playoff team with second round opportunities here and there. It would have required staying the course, ie Melo at four, Chandler at five and lots of shooting around them. Woodson didn't like it. Melo hated it. So the "success" did not last long.

Agreed.
We should have at least stayed a playoff team.

...and I always said I didn't care what position Melo wanted to play. Sit him down watch a gay with him at both positions and tell him why he's a flat out beast at PF. Woody did fail there. Barf was a horrible addition.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#169 » by Knicksfan1992 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:49 pm

FKF wrote:
Greenie wrote:
FKF wrote:
So now it's JR fault the Knicks lost two games to Boston, and couldn't make it past Indiana ?
If not for Shumpert stealing and laying in in transition, stopping the bleeding, those Knicks probably lose game 6.
Also LeBron says hi, I took JR to the Finals twice.



Your problem is you're comparing Melo to LeBron.

LeBron also had Irving and Love on the same team. Both players are better than anyone we placed next to Melo.


The year JR got suspended he was the sixth man of the year and our second scorer. That hurt us. That's reality.

Iman is an afterthought right now to me.


And yet LeBron have had such supporting cast thanks to himself. No luck.

Because he always made decisions in free agency and never pushed either Miami or Cleveland to trade half the team for him. Even better, he made sure either team got more talent each summer he joined, and kept their assets.

You keep blaming lack of supporting cast for Melo, but he pushed himself into that situation. There's no one else to blame but himself. He did not want the Knicks, he wanted the most money in the strong NY market, even if it meant to play for the Nets.

The Knicks options were therefore a: overpay and take a gamble; or b: pass on Melo and let him be the man at Barclays Center.

Knicks should have picked b but in this business, Dolan didn't want to see the Nets get good ticket sales in an AEG building.

Sports wise, Melo made sense only with a strong cast.

They had to build the oldest cast in the league under smaller deals to get a shot in 2013. Good enough to beat Boston, but that team was just too old to compete versus Indiana or Miami or the West.

Since then they have had a young squad but in either time, because of that trade, Knicks have always had limited options to surround Melo.

This is what kills me when people like you give Melo excuses. Dude deserve no excuse. He can whine all
he want in the media, he controlled our franchise at the top, and is responsible for every minute of those past six years. He couldn't get along with MDA the way Harden does. Now he can whine all he wants about Phil, if he doesn't push for the Denver trade, and just signs here as a FA, Donnie Walsh would probably still be president.



How many times do we have to de-bunk the theory that Melo "pushed" the Knicks to give up half the team for him? Masai pushed the Knicks to give up half the team for him not Melo. Melo told Denver he was leaving and his preferred spot was NY. Masai took that info and ran with it to idiot Dolan and held Brooklyn over his head and Dolan took the bait like the idiot negotiator he is and threw in everything we had when Denver, in all reality, had zero leverage in the situation.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#170 » by Greenie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:34 pm

FKF wrote:
Greenie wrote:
FKF wrote:
So now it's JR fault the Knicks lost two games to Boston, and couldn't make it past Indiana ?
If not for Shumpert stealing and laying in in transition, stopping the bleeding, those Knicks probably lose game 6.
Also LeBron says hi, I took JR to the Finals twice.



Your problem is you're comparing Melo to LeBron.

LeBron also had Irving and Love on the same team. Both players are better than anyone we placed next to Melo.


The year JR got suspended he was the sixth man of the year and our second scorer. That hurt us. That's reality.

Iman is an afterthought right now to me.


And yet LeBron have had such supporting cast thanks to himself. No luck.

Because he always made decisions in free agency and never pushed either Miami or Cleveland to trade half the team for him. Even better, he made sure either team got more talent each summer he joined, and kept their assets.

You keep blaming lack of supporting cast for Melo, but he pushed himself into that situation. There's no one else to blame but himself. He did not want the Knicks, he wanted the most money in the strong NY market, even if it meant to play for the Nets.

The Knicks options were therefore a: overpay and take a gamble; or b: pass on Melo and let him be the man at Barclays Center.

Knicks should have picked b but in this business, Dolan didn't want to see the Nets get good ticket sales in an AEG building.

Sports wise, Melo made sense only with a strong cast.

They had to build the oldest cast in the league under smaller deals to get a shot in 2013. Good enough to beat Boston, but that team was just too old to compete versus Indiana or Miami or the West.

Since then they have had a young squad but in either time, because of that trade, Knicks have always had limited options to surround Melo.

This is what kills me when people like you give Melo excuses. Dude deserve no excuse. He can whine all
he want in the media, he controlled our franchise at the top, and is responsible for every minute of those past six years. He couldn't get along with MDA the way Harden does. Now he can whine all he wants about Phil, if he doesn't push for the Denver trade, and just signs here as a FA, Donnie Walsh would probably still be president.



I don't understand your first sentence.
If you're talking LeBron making sure he went to stacked teams and Melo didn't that would be false. People like to forget the big elephant in the room that is STAT. STAT was the best PF in the game the year we traded for Melo. We also got Billups back and had some cash to spend that summer heading into the lockout.

The Knicks front office played their hand wrong letting Donnie pick up Billups option, not extending him and then letting Grunnie use the amnesty on him after the lockout ended to trade for Chandler was huge moving forward.

STAT, Melo and Tyson was supposed to be our big 3. Do you deny this? That's a loaded team on paper. One problem. STAT got hurt and stayed hurt after year 1. There went our big 3. Then it was just Melo and Tyson. Carrying MLE guys. That's equivalent to Wade going down year 1 and never really recovering during the LeBron years in Miami and the Heat being stuck with him.

LeBron forced Cleveland to trade for Love and gave up Wiggins to do so. That wasn't smart looking back. It wasn't smart at all.

Melo didn't make the trade. The Knicks did. Instead of being worried about WTF the Nets could get they should have focused on their own damn team. That right there speaks volumes on the actual state of this franchise. Melo forced nothing. The Knicks pulled the trigger.

Any star player makes sense with a strong cast when the goal is to compete for rings. The Knicks went with Tyson and a patchwork back-court. As much as I love Tyson that was the wrong move especially when it pulled Billups away from us with no apparent replacement. We walked into that season with Tony Douglas as our starting PG. The Knicks have always treated the PG position like the ugly step child....even before Melo. Just think, we brought in D'Antoni as coach and the big time PG we gave him was ...CHRIS DUHON!

You're right about 2013. However, that team gave the Knicks a blueprint and the Knicks ignored it.

The Knicks didn't have limited options because of Melo. This is where common sense has to come into play. Our highest paid player wasn't healthy. It hindered us. Don't you think if STAT could have stayed healthy we would have been a better team? Now, how is any if that Melo's fault?

The rest of your post is plain nonsense because you're witch hunting. Melo forced nothing. The Knicks made the trade. Melo wanted his money and so does everyone else in the world. Get over that. The Knicks knew the cost and decided to pay it. Melo has never controlled a damn thing here. Dolan owns the team. Not Melo.

Donnie was already on the hot seat along with the coach he chose in Mike D'Antoni. Those dudes where here for 3 years before Melo was even an option and did absolutely nothing towards winning. They put all their eggs in the LeBron James basket and lost. They panicked and Maxed STAT which vaulted this team into win now mode. All of what you saw before Phil got here were the remnants of those decisions. It's why they pulled that trigger on that trade. These are the same crazies that traded our current lottery pick in Hill for TMAC all to clear space for Bron and another star without any indication he would actually sign here. These were the KNICKS and their choices.

Stop crucifying one player for years of franchise ineptitude, because at the end of the day that's what is happening. This ain't about Melo. It's about the Knicks. All my life they have been a poor franchise. They had a spurt with Ewing that ended with nothing. That's it. The franchise is a problem and that problem pre-dates Carmelo Anthony's entire life. Dude is 32...
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#171 » by Capn'O » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:06 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:To use a variation of Remy's verse.....

"To win a trade, you would have to actually win'.

Both teams lost when seeing the book read. Gallo and Chandler are complimentary pieces, they were assets though, if they were the bums that folks wanna say they are then how did we get Melo? or perhaps we paid what Melo is actually worth?

Anyway, the Knicks really haven't been anywhere close to nice, solid or even good during any period of Melo's tenure.

3 playoff appearances.....one series win against a really old Boston team that somehow stretched a sweep to 6 games.

Funny thing is, I can recall H20's game winner, LJ's 4pt play, I can't recall not one series marking play from Melo resulting in the Knicks winning a series. To be fair I do recall Melo dunking on Jeff Pendergraph, but the Knicks lost that series. That dunk was nasty btw for some of you don't recall, and kinda why I wasn't buying the sore shoulder nonsense. Bum shoulders don't do that.

Sure, it's a team game, and perhaps the Knicks should have built better, but that "team game" never applies when cats wanna claim Melo carried Denver to the playoffs every year. He didn't. Even in his first year, he shared a court with 4 other players averaging double figure scoring, most notably Andre Miller who joined Denver the same year Melo did. He had help. Denver had a high scoring offense nearly every year, the bulk of the individual scoring came from Melo, but those teams had capable guys to put up points...every single year. What Denver never had was a commitment to defense.

Melo was the best player during those years, no denying that, but being the best player limited Denver nearly every year to being a low seed, playoff flameout, that did not lose to the champs every year either. Same scenario played as a Knick.

Melo is pretty much the Dominique Wilkins of todays NBA. Terrific scoring option, lock for HOF, will normally light up the defender, but cant be the top guy if winning something significant matter, because he, like Nique never gave a consistent effort in the aspects of the game that the winner do. Nique was the SF version of MJ without any of MJ's winning traits, similar to Melo being the SF version of version without any of the traits that made Kobe a winner.

It aint about scoring, there's been tons of high volume scorers, but the better players, the one's who truly carry teams significantly all do the other aspects that result in memorable playoff wins. They fill up a stat sheet, and perform on both ends of the court.

Enough of the who won the trade. Both teams lost. Knicks still doing so.


It's what I figured at the time of the trade. Little known fact - I am actually a Melo supporter from his time with the 'Cuse. Always liked that he brought the NCAA title to Western NY. But the trade was the wrong guy for what we'd already started, which was flawed to begin with. You can't do it if your two best players aren't committed to defense. Amar'e/Stat was a playoff combo but not a contender.

To be fair - we never really saw that pairing, which is too bad. That first series against Boston started out with some of the best ball I've seen the Knicks play since the 90s. It looked like we'd at least be entertained for a few years. Then Billups turned into a pumpkin and Amar'e hurt his back. But the pairing that worked best was a group of defenders and a center around Melo and that was still only good for the second round. We just didn't have the pieces to get another two way star.

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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#172 » by Knicksfan20 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:09 pm

Greenie wrote:

Your problem is you're comparing Melo to LeBron.

LeBron also had Irving and Love on the same team. Both players are better than anyone we placed next to Melo.


The year JR got suspended he was the sixth man of the year and our second scorer. That hurt us. That's reality.

Iman is an afterthought right now to me.


If we traded Melo for Lebron straight up right now....How many games do you think the Cavs win with Melo/Kyrie/Love?
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#173 » by FKF » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:45 pm

Greenie wrote:
FKF wrote:
Greenie wrote:

Your problem is you're comparing Melo to LeBron.

LeBron also had Irving and Love on the same team. Both players are better than anyone we placed next to Melo.


The year JR got suspended he was the sixth man of the year and our second scorer. That hurt us. That's reality.

Iman is an afterthought right now to me.


And yet LeBron have had such supporting cast thanks to himself. No luck.

Because he always made decisions in free agency and never pushed either Miami or Cleveland to trade half the team for him. Even better, he made sure either team got more talent each summer he joined, and kept their assets.

You keep blaming lack of supporting cast for Melo, but he pushed himself into that situation. There's no one else to blame but himself. He did not want the Knicks, he wanted the most money in the strong NY market, even if it meant to play for the Nets.

The Knicks options were therefore a: overpay and take a gamble; or b: pass on Melo and let him be the man at Barclays Center.

Knicks should have picked b but in this business, Dolan didn't want to see the Nets get good ticket sales in an AEG building.

Sports wise, Melo made sense only with a strong cast.

They had to build the oldest cast in the league under smaller deals to get a shot in 2013. Good enough to beat Boston, but that team was just too old to compete versus Indiana or Miami or the West.

Since then they have had a young squad but in either time, because of that trade, Knicks have always had limited options to surround Melo.

This is what kills me when people like you give Melo excuses. Dude deserve no excuse. He can whine all
he want in the media, he controlled our franchise at the top, and is responsible for every minute of those past six years. He couldn't get along with MDA the way Harden does. Now he can whine all he wants about Phil, if he doesn't push for the Denver trade, and just signs here as a FA, Donnie Walsh would probably still be president.



I don't understand your first sentence.
If you're talking LeBron making sure he went to stacked teams and Melo didn't that would be false. People like to forget the big elephant in the room that is STAT. STAT was the best PF in the game the year we traded for Melo. We also got Billups back and had some cash to spend that summer heading into the lockout.

The Knicks front office played their hand wrong letting Donnie pick up Billups option, not extending him and then letting Grunnie use the amnesty on him after the lockout ended to trade for Chandler was huge moving forward.

STAT, Melo and Tyson was supposed to be our big 3. Do you deny this? That's a loaded team on paper. One problem. STAT got hurt and stayed hurt after year 1. There went our big 3. Then it was just Melo and Tyson. Carrying MLE guys. That's equivalent to Wade going down year 1 and never really recovering during the LeBron years in Miami and the Heat being stuck with him.

LeBron forced Cleveland to trade for Love and gave up Wiggins to do so. That wasn't smart looking back. It wasn't smart at all.

Melo didn't make the trade. The Knicks did. Instead of being worried about WTF the Nets could get they should have focused on their own damn team. That right there speaks volumes on the actual state of this franchise. Melo forced nothing. The Knicks pulled the trigger.

Any star player makes sense with a strong cast when the goal is to compete for rings. The Knicks went with Tyson and a patchwork back-court. As much as I love Tyson that was the wrong move especially when it pulled Billups away from us with no apparent replacement. We walked into that season with Tony Douglas as our starting PG. The Knicks have always treated the PG position like the ugly step child....even before Melo. Just think, we brought in D'Antoni as coach and the big time PG we gave him was ...CHRIS DUHON!

You're right about 2013. However, that team gave the Knicks a blueprint and the Knicks ignored it.

The Knicks didn't have limited options because of Melo. This is where common sense has to come into play. Our highest paid player wasn't healthy. It hindered us. Don't you think if STAT could have stayed healthy we would have been a better team? Now, how is any if that Melo's fault?

The rest of your post is plain nonsense because you're witch hunting. Melo forced nothing. The Knicks made the trade. Melo wanted his money and so does everyone else in the world. Get over that. The Knicks knew the cost and decided to pay it. Melo has never controlled a damn thing here. Dolan owns the team. Not Melo.

Donnie was already on the hot seat along with the coach he chose in Mike D'Antoni. Those dudes where here for 3 years before Melo was even an option and did absolutely nothing towards winning. They put all their eggs in the LeBron James basket and lost. They panicked and Maxed STAT which vaulted this team into win now mode. All of what you saw before Phil got here were the remnants of those decisions. It's why they pulled that trigger on that trade. These are the same crazies that traded our current lottery pick in Hill for TMAC all to clear space for Bron and another star without any indication he would actually sign here. These were the KNICKS and their choices.

Stop crucifying one player for years of franchise ineptitude, because at the end of the day that's what is happening. This ain't about Melo. It's about the Knicks. All my life they have been a poor franchise. They had a spurt with Ewing that ended with nothing. That's it. The franchise is a problem and that problem pre-dates Carmelo Anthony's entire life. Dude is 32...


Greenie,

Sure Dolan owns the team, but believe me, agents, managements and players can put pressure on ownership in order to get their deals done. My main problem in your post, is you always make it seem Melo's not responsible for anything. Which is just untrue, every all star in this league has responsibilities.

Some players, like LeBron, Duncan, Nowitzki have always looked team first, themselves second, and as a result, they won a ring or more, and that's just not Melo's case.

Was LeBron stupid to trade Wiggins ? He's made two NBA Finals appearance since, including a championship since, Wiggins was not a fit. At least, the Cavs can guard the perimeter here.

I fully agree the Knicks were too stupid to care about the Nets. Remember when Prokhorov had BKN Nets billboards in Manhattan? Dolan saw competition coming while he shoulda understood the Knicks are bigger than this. Dolan didn't understand what the Knicks meant to the city. Maybe he does now, but the Oakley story proves otherwise.

I also fully agree the Knicks should not have traded Billups for Tyson. Billups was the guy who elevated Melo's game and results in Denver, we should have tried one full year with him. Melo-Amare-Tyson was not a good big three, as it was unbalanced. Can't make a big three without a guard.

I try not make it a Melo thing, as the Knicks are bigger than him, but the fact is the team has retooled multiple times around him, using different players, coaches, managements, and Melo led this team to nowhere.
He is nowhere close to achieve what Ewing did. The Knicks have actually been successful with Ewing, although they don't have rings to show, they do have multiple banners up high in the Garden, and that means something. This league is not title or bust. Conference championship, division banners, or play-off series win, mean something.

I remember those years, hell Melo won't even match what Houston and Sprewell did on that great 1999 run. i thought these guys back then could accept management decisions for the benefit of the team, that Melo doesn't.

You can blame management for poor rades and moves, including for PGs, but they/Melo were saved by LInsanity and they shoulda taken advantage of it, instead Melo called Jeremy's contract "ridiculous", and management let him go to make him happy. For what ? you said best, nothing. Still smh.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#174 » by Greenie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:30 pm

FKF wrote:
Greenie wrote:
FKF wrote:
And yet LeBron have had such supporting cast thanks to himself. No luck.

Because he always made decisions in free agency and never pushed either Miami or Cleveland to trade half the team for him. Even better, he made sure either team got more talent each summer he joined, and kept their assets.

You keep blaming lack of supporting cast for Melo, but he pushed himself into that situation. There's no one else to blame but himself. He did not want the Knicks, he wanted the most money in the strong NY market, even if it meant to play for the Nets.

The Knicks options were therefore a: overpay and take a gamble; or b: pass on Melo and let him be the man at Barclays Center.

Knicks should have picked b but in this business, Dolan didn't want to see the Nets get good ticket sales in an AEG building.

Sports wise, Melo made sense only with a strong cast.

They had to build the oldest cast in the league under smaller deals to get a shot in 2013. Good enough to beat Boston, but that team was just too old to compete versus Indiana or Miami or the West.

Since then they have had a young squad but in either time, because of that trade, Knicks have always had limited options to surround Melo.

This is what kills me when people like you give Melo excuses. Dude deserve no excuse. He can whine all
he want in the media, he controlled our franchise at the top, and is responsible for every minute of those past six years. He couldn't get along with MDA the way Harden does. Now he can whine all he wants about Phil, if he doesn't push for the Denver trade, and just signs here as a FA, Donnie Walsh would probably still be president.



I don't understand your first sentence.
If you're talking LeBron making sure he went to stacked teams and Melo didn't that would be false. People like to forget the big elephant in the room that is STAT. STAT was the best PF in the game the year we traded for Melo. We also got Billups back and had some cash to spend that summer heading into the lockout.

The Knicks front office played their hand wrong letting Donnie pick up Billups option, not extending him and then letting Grunnie use the amnesty on him after the lockout ended to trade for Chandler was huge moving forward.

STAT, Melo and Tyson was supposed to be our big 3. Do you deny this? That's a loaded team on paper. One problem. STAT got hurt and stayed hurt after year 1. There went our big 3. Then it was just Melo and Tyson. Carrying MLE guys. That's equivalent to Wade going down year 1 and never really recovering during the LeBron years in Miami and the Heat being stuck with him.

LeBron forced Cleveland to trade for Love and gave up Wiggins to do so. That wasn't smart looking back. It wasn't smart at all.

Melo didn't make the trade. The Knicks did. Instead of being worried about WTF the Nets could get they should have focused on their own damn team. That right there speaks volumes on the actual state of this franchise. Melo forced nothing. The Knicks pulled the trigger.

Any star player makes sense with a strong cast when the goal is to compete for rings. The Knicks went with Tyson and a patchwork back-court. As much as I love Tyson that was the wrong move especially when it pulled Billups away from us with no apparent replacement. We walked into that season with Tony Douglas as our starting PG. The Knicks have always treated the PG position like the ugly step child....even before Melo. Just think, we brought in D'Antoni as coach and the big time PG we gave him was ...CHRIS DUHON!

You're right about 2013. However, that team gave the Knicks a blueprint and the Knicks ignored it.

The Knicks didn't have limited options because of Melo. This is where common sense has to come into play. Our highest paid player wasn't healthy. It hindered us. Don't you think if STAT could have stayed healthy we would have been a better team? Now, how is any if that Melo's fault?

The rest of your post is plain nonsense because you're witch hunting. Melo forced nothing. The Knicks made the trade. Melo wanted his money and so does everyone else in the world. Get over that. The Knicks knew the cost and decided to pay it. Melo has never controlled a damn thing here. Dolan owns the team. Not Melo.

Donnie was already on the hot seat along with the coach he chose in Mike D'Antoni. Those dudes where here for 3 years before Melo was even an option and did absolutely nothing towards winning. They put all their eggs in the LeBron James basket and lost. They panicked and Maxed STAT which vaulted this team into win now mode. All of what you saw before Phil got here were the remnants of those decisions. It's why they pulled that trigger on that trade. These are the same crazies that traded our current lottery pick in Hill for TMAC all to clear space for Bron and another star without any indication he would actually sign here. These were the KNICKS and their choices.

Stop crucifying one player for years of franchise ineptitude, because at the end of the day that's what is happening. This ain't about Melo. It's about the Knicks. All my life they have been a poor franchise. They had a spurt with Ewing that ended with nothing. That's it. The franchise is a problem and that problem pre-dates Carmelo Anthony's entire life. Dude is 32...


Greenie,

Sure Dolan owns the team, but believe me, agents, managements and players can put pressure on ownership in order to get their deals done. My main problem in your post, is you always make it seem Melo's not responsible for anything. Which is just untrue, every all star in this league has responsibilities.

Some players, like LeBron, Duncan, Nowitzki have always looked team first, themselves second, and as a result, they won a ring or more, and that's just not Melo's case.

Was LeBron stupid to trade Wiggins ? He's made two NBA Finals appearance since, including a championship since, Wiggins was not a fit. At least, the Cavs can guard the perimeter here.

I fully agree the Knicks were too stupid to care about the Nets. Remember when Prokhorov had BKN Nets billboards in Manhattan? Dolan saw competition coming while he shoulda understood the Knicks are bigger than this. Dolan didn't understand what the Knicks meant to the city. Maybe he does now, but the Oakley story proves otherwise.

I also fully agree the Knicks should not have traded Billups for Tyson. Billups was the guy who elevated Melo's game and results in Denver, we should have tried one full year with him. Melo-Amare-Tyson was not a good big three, as it was unbalanced. Can't make a big three without a guard.

I try not make it a Melo thing, as the Knicks are bigger than him, but the fact is the team has retooled multiple times around him, using different players, coaches, managements, and Melo led this team to nowhere.
He is nowhere close to achieve what Ewing did. The Knicks have actually been successful with Ewing, although they don't have rings to show, they do have multiple banners up high in the Garden, and that means something. This league is not title or bust. Conference championship, division banners, or play-off series win, mean something.

I remember those years, hell Melo won't even match what Houston and Sprewell did on that great 1999 run. i thought these guys back then could accept management decisions for the benefit of the team, that Melo doesn't.

You can blame management for poor rades and moves, including for PGs, but they/Melo were saved by LInsanity and they shoulda taken advantage of it, instead Melo called Jeremy's contract "ridiculous", and management let him go to make him happy. For what ? you said best, nothing. Still smh.



Ahhh

So this is all about Lin for you? That poison pill was ridiculous. The tax hit the Knicks would have taken would have been beyond stupid for a below average/average player at best. That was money directly coming out of Dolan's pocket. He decided he didn't want to spend that and looking back he was right as all hell on that one. And that's coming from a person in the "match him" camp.


Edit: Melo was as advertised to me. He didn't come here and stop being the dude we traded for. What did you think he was when we acquired him?
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#175 » by Greenie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:30 pm

Knicksfan20 wrote:
Greenie wrote:

Your problem is you're comparing Melo to LeBron.

LeBron also had Irving and Love on the same team. Both players are better than anyone we placed next to Melo.


The year JR got suspended he was the sixth man of the year and our second scorer. That hurt us. That's reality.

Iman is an afterthought right now to me.


If we traded Melo for Lebron straight up right now....How many games do you think the Cavs win with Melo/Kyrie/Love?

More than us.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#176 » by Thugger HBC » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:07 am

Capn'O wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:To use a variation of Remy's verse.....

"To win a trade, you would have to actually win'.

Both teams lost when seeing the book read. Gallo and Chandler are complimentary pieces, they were assets though, if they were the bums that folks wanna say they are then how did we get Melo? or perhaps we paid what Melo is actually worth?

Anyway, the Knicks really haven't been anywhere close to nice, solid or even good during any period of Melo's tenure.

3 playoff appearances.....one series win against a really old Boston team that somehow stretched a sweep to 6 games.

Funny thing is, I can recall H20's game winner, LJ's 4pt play, I can't recall not one series marking play from Melo resulting in the Knicks winning a series. To be fair I do recall Melo dunking on Jeff Pendergraph, but the Knicks lost that series. That dunk was nasty btw for some of you don't recall, and kinda why I wasn't buying the sore shoulder nonsense. Bum shoulders don't do that.

Sure, it's a team game, and perhaps the Knicks should have built better, but that "team game" never applies when cats wanna claim Melo carried Denver to the playoffs every year. He didn't. Even in his first year, he shared a court with 4 other players averaging double figure scoring, most notably Andre Miller who joined Denver the same year Melo did. He had help. Denver had a high scoring offense nearly every year, the bulk of the individual scoring came from Melo, but those teams had capable guys to put up points...every single year. What Denver never had was a commitment to defense.

Melo was the best player during those years, no denying that, but being the best player limited Denver nearly every year to being a low seed, playoff flameout, that did not lose to the champs every year either. Same scenario played as a Knick.

Melo is pretty much the Dominique Wilkins of todays NBA. Terrific scoring option, lock for HOF, will normally light up the defender, but cant be the top guy if winning something significant matter, because he, like Nique never gave a consistent effort in the aspects of the game that the winner do. Nique was the SF version of MJ without any of MJ's winning traits, similar to Melo being the SF version of version without any of the traits that made Kobe a winner.

It aint about scoring, there's been tons of high volume scorers, but the better players, the one's who truly carry teams significantly all do the other aspects that result in memorable playoff wins. They fill up a stat sheet, and perform on both ends of the court.

Enough of the who won the trade. Both teams lost. Knicks still doing so.


It's what I figured at the time of the trade. Little known fact - I am actually a Melo supporter from his time with the 'Cuse. Always liked that he brought the NCAA title to Western NY. But the trade was the wrong guy for what we'd already started, which was flawed to begin with. You can't do it if your two best players aren't committed to defense. Amar'e/Stat was a playoff combo but not a contender.

To be fair - we never really saw that pairing, which is too bad. That first series against Boston started out with some of the best ball I've seen the Knicks play since the 90s. It looked like we'd at least be entertained for a few years. Then Billups turned into a pumpkin and Amar'e hurt his back. But the pairing that worked best was a group of defenders and a center around Melo and that was still only good for the second round. We just didn't have the pieces to get another two way star.

Big L.

Solid post. Most know I've followed him since HS, the time when he actually played pg. I'm well versed in his capabilities, which is why I get a nice chuckle when folks get bent when he's compared to LeBron. Melo actually has similar skillsets.....just doesn't use them. But you're right, the pairing was awful, mainly because of the defense, a pairing that we really didn't really get to see, and it was compounded with signing Chandler, and in his thinking he was right. he could do their "dirty work", while they poured in the points. then drafting Shumpert as an on ball defender. The thinking started to make sense, then the wheels continued to fall of the car.

But overall, just too much was invested to get support for a player that isn't a guy to lead a team to things meaningful.
If winning matters, the role shouldn't.....the results should.

The ...02% of the fanbse be like...http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1542565&start=140#start_here
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#177 » by moocow007 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:31 am

seren wrote:Fact is we would never be able to win a championship with Melo. Salary cap, trades that occured prior to and with Melo guaranteed that. However, we should have continued being a playoff team with second round opportunities here and there. It would have required staying the course, ie Melo at four, Chandler at five and lots of shooting around them. Woodson didn't like it. Melo hated it. So the "success" did not last long.


And the front office actually doing a MUCH better job than they have making the team fit one another and the goal IF the goal was to be a playoff team with a 2nd round op (which is not a terrible thing). The Knicks problems has centered around their inability to build teams and/or figure out a definite direction they want to take. They had their opportunities to trade Anthony (i.e. before the NTC and before the decline) and chose to build around him. IF you are going to choose to build around him then build around him. They failed to do that.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#178 » by FKF » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:47 am

Greenie wrote:
FKF wrote:
Greenie wrote:

I don't understand your first sentence.
If you're talking LeBron making sure he went to stacked teams and Melo didn't that would be false. People like to forget the big elephant in the room that is STAT. STAT was the best PF in the game the year we traded for Melo. We also got Billups back and had some cash to spend that summer heading into the lockout.

The Knicks front office played their hand wrong letting Donnie pick up Billups option, not extending him and then letting Grunnie use the amnesty on him after the lockout ended to trade for Chandler was huge moving forward.

STAT, Melo and Tyson was supposed to be our big 3. Do you deny this? That's a loaded team on paper. One problem. STAT got hurt and stayed hurt after year 1. There went our big 3. Then it was just Melo and Tyson. Carrying MLE guys. That's equivalent to Wade going down year 1 and never really recovering during the LeBron years in Miami and the Heat being stuck with him.

LeBron forced Cleveland to trade for Love and gave up Wiggins to do so. That wasn't smart looking back. It wasn't smart at all.

Melo didn't make the trade. The Knicks did. Instead of being worried about WTF the Nets could get they should have focused on their own damn team. That right there speaks volumes on the actual state of this franchise. Melo forced nothing. The Knicks pulled the trigger.

Any star player makes sense with a strong cast when the goal is to compete for rings. The Knicks went with Tyson and a patchwork back-court. As much as I love Tyson that was the wrong move especially when it pulled Billups away from us with no apparent replacement. We walked into that season with Tony Douglas as our starting PG. The Knicks have always treated the PG position like the ugly step child....even before Melo. Just think, we brought in D'Antoni as coach and the big time PG we gave him was ...CHRIS DUHON!

You're right about 2013. However, that team gave the Knicks a blueprint and the Knicks ignored it.

The Knicks didn't have limited options because of Melo. This is where common sense has to come into play. Our highest paid player wasn't healthy. It hindered us. Don't you think if STAT could have stayed healthy we would have been a better team? Now, how is any if that Melo's fault?

The rest of your post is plain nonsense because you're witch hunting. Melo forced nothing. The Knicks made the trade. Melo wanted his money and so does everyone else in the world. Get over that. The Knicks knew the cost and decided to pay it. Melo has never controlled a damn thing here. Dolan owns the team. Not Melo.

Donnie was already on the hot seat along with the coach he chose in Mike D'Antoni. Those dudes where here for 3 years before Melo was even an option and did absolutely nothing towards winning. They put all their eggs in the LeBron James basket and lost. They panicked and Maxed STAT which vaulted this team into win now mode. All of what you saw before Phil got here were the remnants of those decisions. It's why they pulled that trigger on that trade. These are the same crazies that traded our current lottery pick in Hill for TMAC all to clear space for Bron and another star without any indication he would actually sign here. These were the KNICKS and their choices.

Stop crucifying one player for years of franchise ineptitude, because at the end of the day that's what is happening. This ain't about Melo. It's about the Knicks. All my life they have been a poor franchise. They had a spurt with Ewing that ended with nothing. That's it. The franchise is a problem and that problem pre-dates Carmelo Anthony's entire life. Dude is 32...


Greenie,

Sure Dolan owns the team, but believe me, agents, managements and players can put pressure on ownership in order to get their deals done. My main problem in your post, is you always make it seem Melo's not responsible for anything. Which is just untrue, every all star in this league has responsibilities.

Some players, like LeBron, Duncan, Nowitzki have always looked team first, themselves second, and as a result, they won a ring or more, and that's just not Melo's case.

Was LeBron stupid to trade Wiggins ? He's made two NBA Finals appearance since, including a championship since, Wiggins was not a fit. At least, the Cavs can guard the perimeter here.

I fully agree the Knicks were too stupid to care about the Nets. Remember when Prokhorov had BKN Nets billboards in Manhattan? Dolan saw competition coming while he shoulda understood the Knicks are bigger than this. Dolan didn't understand what the Knicks meant to the city. Maybe he does now, but the Oakley story proves otherwise.

I also fully agree the Knicks should not have traded Billups for Tyson. Billups was the guy who elevated Melo's game and results in Denver, we should have tried one full year with him. Melo-Amare-Tyson was not a good big three, as it was unbalanced. Can't make a big three without a guard.

I try not make it a Melo thing, as the Knicks are bigger than him, but the fact is the team has retooled multiple times around him, using different players, coaches, managements, and Melo led this team to nowhere.
He is nowhere close to achieve what Ewing did. The Knicks have actually been successful with Ewing, although they don't have rings to show, they do have multiple banners up high in the Garden, and that means something. This league is not title or bust. Conference championship, division banners, or play-off series win, mean something.

I remember those years, hell Melo won't even match what Houston and Sprewell did on that great 1999 run. i thought these guys back then could accept management decisions for the benefit of the team, that Melo doesn't.

You can blame management for poor rades and moves, including for PGs, but they/Melo were saved by LInsanity and they shoulda taken advantage of it, instead Melo called Jeremy's contract "ridiculous", and management let him go to make him happy. For what ? you said best, nothing. Still smh.



Ahhh

So this is all about Lin for you? That poison pill was ridiculous. The tax hit the Knicks would have taken would have been beyond stupid for a below average/average player at best. That was money directly coming out of Dolan's pocket. He decided he didn't want to spend that and looking back he was right as all hell on that one. And that's coming from a person in the "match him" camp.


Edit: Melo was as advertised to me. He didn't come here and stop being the dude we traded for. What did you think he was when we acquired him?


No Greenie, this isn't about Lin personally.
I was just referring to him since he was the most impactful PG we had in recent history, and you stated our lack of focus on the point guard was an issue, which i agreed with. You can't be sitting on one seat, blaming the Knicks lack of interest for good PGs, and then sit on the next seat, and ignore the way Melo and the Knicks ran Lin out of town.

Regardless, you still choose to ignore the fact that other all-stars I mentioned have been smarter to build confidence with mgmt/owner, and therefore build their teams, than Melo..
He/you can't be blaming forever the weaker supporting cast on managements or injuries.
These guys faced injuries too.

You can't also act as if it was OK Melo stayed the player he was in Denver. No it was not OK. In this business, all stars are due to grow as human beings, and grow as players. Sprewell stopped choking coaches in NY, LJ & Ewing both changed their respective game when age was coming, Kobe grew up under Phil to get five rings.

History goes on and on and on, champions were not champions until they became champions. And they did because they elevated their attitude and game to adversity. MJ was losing in postseason prior to Phil coaching. Kobe/Shaq/Gasol too. The Pistons showed great heart to win a ring and beat Payton/Kobe/Mailman & Shaq. Dirk won a ring when he started to attack the rim more often, rather than chucking jumpers.
I'm not a fan of LeBron but he's not the same player today he was in his early Cleveland days. The last Finals were adamant proof. LeBron did things very few expected. That's basket-ball, and we are both talking basket-ball here.

It was well advertised by Phil that he had a problem with Melo stopping the ball.
When he resigned him, Phil said very clearly in interviews Melo committed to do things, but he didn't do those. If someone was "hoodwinked", that was Phil.
Melo was a loser in Denver, and came to NY to be a winner. He did not and I can't be OK with this, that's a f'ing loser's attitude to be Ok with what Melo accomplished here. the guy is in office has had 13 rings as player and coach, show some damn respect to that.
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#179 » by EnigmatiC » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:48 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:Melo was part of those bad memories, which is why he has little to zero good memorable memories of his own in the playoffs as a Knick. He absolutely contributed to the losing, and it was easy to see early on.

First year against Boston, 1st game to be exact. Amare beasting 12-18 to be exact, against anyone on the Celtics. Melo nowhere to be found (5-18 to be exact.) How a player of Melo's character can't show up for their 1st playoff game for their new team is astounding.

It isn't always about the supporting cast.


I don't remember Garnett ever being absolutely abused as much as Amare did to him that game
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Re: Per NY Post: Hornacek's job is safe 

Post#180 » by K-DOT » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:04 pm

And we've managed to turn a thread about our head coach into one about the Melo trade


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