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How Long Do We Give Hornacek?

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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#41 » by Newyorknick94 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:38 pm

Jay10 wrote:No one is going to know what he capable of doing as a coach until #7 is no longer on the roster.

We can win with Melo but Rose must go.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#42 » by NoLayupRule » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:13 am

It depends on the team next season but I'd say he deserves next year to get it together.

He's not a rookie coach. He's proven he can win.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#43 » by Greenie » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:21 am

GONYK wrote:
malik959 wrote:I strongly feel that a lot of this can't be placed on Horny. He was placed in a position to fail. Forced to run an offense that he had no knowledge of and like most of his players he had to learn on the fly. Had no time to develope a defense because he was stuck trying to understand the triangle. Didnt have two of his starters to have a full training camp and also preseason and those players have missed significant games due to injuries.

Then in order to run the triangle successfully you have to have a pass first guard and for some reason Phill got Rose. Maybe he was planning on having a losing season so we could draft high?

Then comes Melo. This team is not built for now and should be built around KP for the future. But with Melo we're stuck in limbo because this team is poorly built, not able to win now and not properly built for the future. This draft is really going to bring us to a new'direction.


Was offense the problem this season?

Yes.
All we really ran were P&R and Iso.
When Lance snd Kyle are in Iso sets I have a problem.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#44 » by Greenie » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:42 am

moocow007 wrote:
GONYK wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
The Knicks offense wasn't terrible terrible but that's probably because they do have 3 guys that averages 18+ ppg based on pure talent. From an offensive efficiency standpoint they are ranked 17th. Folks may see that and say that that's not terrible but when you consider that they have 3 very skilled offensive players and is supposed to be offensive geared (meaning offense is what wins games for them) it is pretty bad. They are near the bottom in terms of assists and effective FG% which are good signs that the offensive as a collective is not a good one.


I don't disagree, but in terms of the reason our record is what it is, I don't think it is because we didn't have an offensive system.

Our offense might be inefficient and depend on individual scoring, but I can name you playoff teams who are worse than us.

Our defense is front and center as the biggest problem.

I think an analysis that leads to our record being what it is because because Jeff had to run the Triangle (which he did NOT do) is a very inaccurate one.


Their defense is definitely the bigger issue no question but I don't think we had much in the way of an offensive system. Like I said, our system was basically geared around 3 18+ppg scorers that can score on their own to carry the bulk of the offensive burden.

What Derrick Rose said about the Knicks offense (before Jackson started spending more time showing them the Triangle) being "random offense" IMO is a correct statement of the teams "offensive system".

If most folks get what they want (which is no more Rose and no more Anthony) then I think the offense will become just as big if not a bigger problem. So I don't want their defensive issues to mask what could very well be an equally big issue if/when Rose and Anthony go.

I absolute think folks are not giving enough credit to the offensive ability of the maligned duo. Folks that think that the few snippets of "good offensive flow" that they've seen when Anthony and/or Rose wasn't playing can actually translate into a "good offense" without them IMO is fooling themselves. At the end of the day, even top notch offensive systems need guys that can score and create on their own.

As far as Jeff having to run the Triangle, I'm honestly not sure what he's trying to run (and that's part of the problem). Whether it's because he's just not a very good head coach (with no real system) or because he's trying to compromise his system with another system. They aren't running what he ran in Phoenix. They aren't running what I would consider the Triangle.

I don't think there's been clear communication between him and Jackson on what Jeff should be doing (and that could be part of the problem). If there is and Jackson is insisting that Jeff run the Triangle then I can tell you that Jeff is not good at it cause they are just piss poor at understanding the concepts of it (and you can only blame Anthony and Rose so much since Porzingis appears just as lost if not more so).


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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#45 » by N8isScofield » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:53 am

moocow007 wrote:
GONYK wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
The Knicks offense wasn't terrible terrible but that's probably because they do have 3 guys that averages 18+ ppg based on pure talent. From an offensive efficiency standpoint they are ranked 17th. Folks may see that and say that that's not terrible but when you consider that they have 3 very skilled offensive players and is supposed to be offensive geared (meaning offense is what wins games for them) it is pretty bad. They are near the bottom in terms of assists and effective FG% which are good signs that the offensive as a collective is not a good one.


I don't disagree, but in terms of the reason our record is what it is, I don't think it is because we didn't have an offensive system.

Our offense might be inefficient and depend on individual scoring, but I can name you playoff teams who are worse than us.

Our defense is front and center as the biggest problem.

I think an analysis that leads to our record being what it is because because Jeff had to run the Triangle (which he did NOT do) is a very inaccurate one.


Their defense is definitely the bigger issue no question but I don't think we had much in the way of an offensive system. Like I said, our system was basically geared around 3 18+ppg scorers that can score on their own to carry the bulk of the offensive burden.

What Derrick Rose said about the Knicks offense (before Jackson started spending more time showing them the Triangle) being "random offense" IMO is a correct statement of the teams "offensive system".

If most folks get what they want (which is no more Rose and no more Anthony) then I think the offense will become just as big if not a bigger problem. So I don't want their defensive issues to mask what could very well be an equally big issue if/when Rose and Anthony go.

I absolute think folks are not giving enough credit to the offensive ability of the maligned duo. Folks that think that the few snippets of "good offensive flow" that they've seen when Anthony and/or Rose wasn't playing can actually translate into a "good offense" without them IMO is fooling themselves. At the end of the day, even top notch offensive systems need guys that can score and create on their own.

As far as Jeff having to run the Triangle, I'm honestly not sure what he's trying to run (and that's part of the problem). Whether it's because he's just not a very good head coach (with no real system) or because he's trying to compromise his system with another system. They aren't running what he ran in Phoenix. They aren't running what I would consider the Triangle.

I don't think there's been clear communication between him and Jackson on what Jeff should be doing (and that could be part of the problem). If there is and Jackson is insisting that Jeff run the Triangle then I can tell you that Jeff is not good at it cause they are just piss poor at understanding the concepts of it (and you can only blame Anthony and Rose so much since Porzingis appears just as lost if not more so).

And this is pretty much the cliff notes version of everything wrong with this organization. Nothing is clear from the top down. On the one hand you've got Phil trying to run Melo out of town which would lead you to believe he wants to do a proper rebuild around KP. On the other hand he gave Noah a ton of money and more importantly a ton of years(given the absolute shell of a player he is 4 years is a lot) like he was trying to win now. He goes out and gets Rose, a low IQ player who doesn't play defense and isn't a triangle fit but who theoretically fits what Jeff was doing in Phoenix. But then you still have Phil's media shill talking about the frigging triangle which clearly is still hanging over Jeff and this team and which very few of the players on a roster Phil has now had 3 years to tinker with seem to fit let alone grasp. None of it makes sense outside of the very broad explanation that we're the Knicks and this kind of clusterf*ck is par for the course.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#46 » by dakomish23 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:11 am

The answer from Knicks fans is always blaming the players and the coaches. Not the folks who create the roster or bring in the coaches.

Makes sense :lol:

I want to see who the scapegoat is after those guys are gone. I assume the next group of players or coaches.

Until this organization is run like a well run organization, you will not see a good product on the floor consistently. We had legit NBA management for a few years and it culminated in the best season we had in 15 years. Not a coincidence.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#47 » by br7knicks » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:53 am

unless a coach is unwilling to make adjustments and hold players accountable, i say 3 years is how long it should take for improvement/an environment to be set in place


he's better at making adjustments, but not what a real coach should. nor does he hold the **** heads accountable. so i'll give him another year
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#48 » by MP4LIFE » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:23 am

dakomish23 wrote:The answer from Knicks fans is always blaming the players and the coaches. Not the folks who create the roster or bring in the coaches.

Makes sense :lol:

I want to see who the scapegoat is after those guys are gone. I assume the next group of players or coaches.

Until this organization is run like a well run organization, you will not see a good product on the floor consistently. We had legit NBA management for a few years and it culminated in the best season we had in 15 years. Not a coincidence.


Glen Grunwald wasn't legit NBA management.

We signed some veterans who led a team where Melo couldn't because he isn't a natural leader. Unfortunately we had a very mediocre coach and we flamed out in the playoffs.

Donnie Walsh was legit NBA management, a man who made the playoffs for nearly 30 seasons in Indiana. He did his best under the toxic environment but he, too, was sent packing in no time.

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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#49 » by TruthBeTold » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:07 am

Hornacek should remain Knicks head-coach until Phil's contract expire. And then both of them can leave together. I think both Phil and Jeff's contracts expire in the same year. Another coach forced to use the triangle and do whatever lord Phil wants will not turn things around for the Knicks. Phil Jackson's era is going to be a bad one, so the Knicks should just stock up high draft picks and hopefully things get better when Phil is no longer working for the Knicks. 8-)
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#50 » by Jeff Van Gully » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:34 pm

swisscheeseD wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:I agree with the no band-aid moves. but we need to define that. you have to field a team. there's a cap floor. that means sometimes you need to bring in a vet like courtney lee. if we're talking about a max vet who is not a key driver, then i'd look to avoid that too. but then, fans need to respect that we're on that kind of path.


My definition of "no band-aid" moves is signing anybody in the off-season that is more of a "win-now" player, to a multi-year contract and that could block or stunt the development of our youth. We are nowhere near a "win-now" team there isn't a single player in FA, Steph Curry included, that will turn this team into a Contender.

I'd much rather see this franchise use its available cap space to take on salary through dumps that have additional future considerations / young players attached for the troubles of taking on the salary.

You say that "sometimes you need to bring on a vet like Courtney Lee". I say, so do other teams around the league who are looking for players like him to put them over the top. Why pay CLee $13mil the next 3 seasons when we aren't winning dick over that time, can pay a guy like Holiday less(who replicates his skill set and like Lee, a journeymen who is now starting to come on to his own), all while acquiring another pick/young asset? I have zero issues with keeping Lee, but we need to get into "stocking assets mode" while our young guys develop. As a core starts to form, we'll have even more assets at our disposal to fill needs around them.

I just don't see why anyone would want to pay anyone anything this Free Agency. The idea of wooing a Jrue Holiday or for some reason George Hill, paying them $30mil/yr for 4yrs, when we can use our Top 8 to select one who is cost-controlled in a stacked PG draft, just makes me sick to my stomach.

We need to do what good organizations do for a change.


i cited courtney lee because he is a vet on a good deal who doesn't have to be in anyone's way. his production-to-pay ratio is really good. will be kind of amazing next year. because of the cap floor, you need players like lee because he takes up some money, but not too much. wouldn't freak out if he got moved around the lineup or played a little less. is a good presence for your young players.

15 players on rookie scale and league minimum doesn't get you to the cap floor. you would need a couple of courtney lees.

i get what you mean about taking on "bad" contracts that let your team suck and maybe bring in assets while your team is young. that's a different kind of band-aid though, no? like... you don't plan to do that forever. your hope is that you've stockpiled enough young talent to put your team on a different course in a few years. i get it. but committing to being bad and going to a really dark place with those kinds of jobbers on your roster puts your team at a disadvantage for when you get serious about winning.

by then, the first wave of rookie deals may be malcontents and resolved to leave. you now have a bad team and poisoned well. tough risk to take, but a strategy that could turn out effective. i think you can mix and match components of these things for a "diverse portfolio" of fiscal responsibility, asset building, and future planning. too much of anything puts you in a bad place i suppose.

and there is also the component of opportunity. you can only do what's available. we sit around and talk about what should have happened like the NBA is 2K. in the real world, certain opportunities are available at certain times. so, even with a given strategy, there may not be other teams interested in engaging. so, an exec would need to be flexible, smart, creative, and forward-thinking to "rebuild" a basketball team. same as any other personnel-based business.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#51 » by Dr. Detfink » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:48 pm

I hate to break it to every one but it's not like guys were lining up to play with the Knicks.

Remember when Melo was all brash, saying he was going to help court free agents during All-Star weekend in Brooklyn as well as the off-season? Rubbish. Melo couldn't attract a fat man with doughnut.

Basically Phil Jackson only had Joakim Noah knocking on his door and gave him twice of what he's worth. Then Phil who got shut out Donnie Walsh style on free agency, made a trade for Derrick Rose. THAT was the BEST the Knicks could do. Even further proof, the draft is the only way to go.

Jeff's progress as a coach will be measured by how well he teaches/grooms the youth on the team. He'll NEVER have the respect of the vets.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#52 » by battabing10 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:20 pm

hornacheck had one good season with a couple of good pg and that team was top 10 off and 15 on d. so he know how to coach. i remember him as a player too. underrated d and passing and sweet sweet jumper. he outshined by malone and stock which ain't no crime but hornacheck a complete package pretty much so he know what a complete package look like too. i don't get the hate he getting at all. he ain't doc or pop but so what? he dealing with two dhs who ruin the d every game and one of them too dumb to play triangle.

trouble begin with ntc melo "window" statement and jax trying to acomodate the window and that a recepi for epic fail as we see. i hate rose but with melo ntc jax force to make that move. but that was melo last chance to drive the bus and i bet even he know it too. he been mailin it in for weeks now. so he either go or stays and go to bench. NO MORE DH!!!
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#53 » by thebuzzardman » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:48 pm

The system he had the most success at had a C who played behind the 3 point line and a lot of P&R with Markeiff Morris, who I'd say Carmelo can approximate, at the 4. Of course, lets not ignore the fact that his speedy guard, Dragic, has actual court sense.

But then Phil gifts this coach with Noah at C, forcing KP to the 4 and Melo to the 3, playing 2 guys out of position in the main, and certainly out of position in terms of running an offense that Hornacek had success with.

Even the Rose trade could have maybe worked if only Phil could have resisted Noah. I doubt it, as Noah has been invisible all year and the Knicks did manage wins when Noah was nominally playing, though that is probably result of schedule/luck more than anything.

Defense is the main issue, would have been interesting to see what would have become of a Melo\KP\someone at SF, Rose and CLee lineup.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#54 » by Yankeeknickfan » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:05 pm

Phil is making his job impossible
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#55 » by FlashFlood » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:13 pm

I feel like Hornacek's being scapegoated. He had a decent game plan to start the year, but simply got figured out as the year wore on. His players can't play defence to stay in games, and the main offensive stars are predictable. You have situations where the Knicks can keep up in scoring pace during the gam, but when it's time to close out the game they can't stop anyone, and you know their only play is hero ball with Rose, Melo, and KP.

It's well known that you kill hero ball by being physical. Even crap teams can figure it out. Worse, the Knicks are susceptible to it in return.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#56 » by malik959 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:38 pm

Greenie wrote:
GONYK wrote:
malik959 wrote:I strongly feel that a lot of this can't be placed on Horny. He was placed in a position to fail. Forced to run an offense that he had no knowledge of and like most of his players he had to learn on the fly. Had no time to develope a defense because he was stuck trying to understand the triangle. Didnt have two of his starters to have a full training camp and also preseason and those players have missed significant games due to injuries.

Then in order to run the triangle successfully you have to have a pass first guard and for some reason Phill got Rose. Maybe he was planning on having a losing season so we could draft high?

Then comes Melo. This team is not built for now and should be built around KP for the future. But with Melo we're stuck in limbo because this team is poorly built, not able to win now and not properly built for the future. This draft is really going to bring us to a new'direction.


Was offense the problem this season?

Yes.
All we really ran were P&R and Iso.
When Lance snd Kyle are in Iso sets I have a problem.


When they Iso the team just sits around waiting and the movement becomes very stagnant. Than they feel that hero ball has to happen, and they can never hold a lead because they're so inconsistant . But the major problem is defense because they're lazy, unmotivated, or saving themselves for offense.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#57 » by BeagleBoss » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:45 pm

2 more years so we can continue tanking until Phil and Melo are gone. Hornecek is an awful coach. He's soft and the players do not respect him. So he's perfect for the next 2 years.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#58 » by WesleyExChiFan » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:56 pm

GONYK wrote:
K P 6 wrote:I think its **ed up to force the triangle on him. We couldn't even let him coach. the young guys lay well for him. Get rid of Melo and Rose and see what he can do.


This myth needs to die.

Phil basically let him do whatever he wanted offensively up until the AS break. We ran the Triangle less than 6 times a game. Offense wasn't a problem before and it isn't a problem now that we've gone back to the Triangle.

The problem was always defense, and that remains a problem.

Truth. I wish Rose would have done as much on that end as he talked about it. He had the right focus, but lacked the execution.
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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#59 » by spree8 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:23 pm

As long as Jeff continues to say dumb shyt like "I think the triangle will make players want to come play for us" ...his job will be safe.

Until Phil gives up on forcing coaches to run this system and trying to back seat coach the team, I don't think he'll find anyone better or even interested in the job. So Jeff stays as long as Phil does.


I just wish we could bring back Becky :thinking:

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Re: How Long Do We Give Hornacek? 

Post#60 » by dakomish23 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:15 pm

MP4LIFE wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:The answer from Knicks fans is always blaming the players and the coaches. Not the folks who create the roster or bring in the coaches.

Makes sense :lol:

I want to see who the scapegoat is after those guys are gone. I assume the next group of players or coaches.

Until this organization is run like a well run organization, you will not see a good product on the floor consistently. We had legit NBA management for a few years and it culminated in the best season we had in 15 years. Not a coincidence.


Glen Grunwald wasn't legit NBA management.

We signed some veterans who led a team where Melo couldn't because he isn't a natural leader. Unfortunately we had a very mediocre coach and we flamed out in the playoffs.

Donnie Walsh was legit NBA management, a man who made the playoffs for nearly 30 seasons in Indiana. He did his best under the toxic environment but he, too, was sent packing in no time.

The cancer of the franchise is James Dolan. The man is the single worst thing to ever happen to the New York Knicks.


I consider both legit NBA management. One laid the foundation and the other filled in the gaps, though some of his moves left us screwed in certain areas. Who fires the GM after the best season in a decade?
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