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Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd)

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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#421 » by moocow007 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:03 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:
shtolky wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:
You need to re-read what you said... this is the exact issue with phil in NY. He's not adapting at all, whereas riley has adapted to the game several times over. How is this not clear?



My point about Riley was not that he did a 180 just for the hell of it, he did a 180 because the players he was handed (good players) played that style, so he only needed to add similar players. With Phil, what did he need to adapt to? He inherited a garbage, mediocre team. I was specifically responding to the fact that people are saying that Fox isn't a "Phil guard." I find this too general. Was KP a Phil forward? I don't think so. Yes, you can criticize Phil for sticking too close to the triangle, but he has definitely not simply stuck with triangle oriented players only. If he feels Fox is the BPA, he will take Fox. I don't think he is that much of a slave to the triangle where he will willingly pass up talent for lesser talent.


I'm not saying I know exactly what phil will do. No one does. However, he hasn't adapted to the way the game is played today, and a constant theme has been ignoring guard depth as he's re-done the roster several times over. Even with bringing in rose, it was a poor decision as rose doesn't create nearly enough for others when he gets in the paint. Riley did infact adapt to small ball in the lebron era, which was the 3rd time he changed his game plan since coaching / GMing. Maybe phil proves us wrong and drafts a PG to develop, but his track record in that department is poor.


Pretty much.
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#422 » by shtolky » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:05 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:
shtolky wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:
You need to re-read what you said... this is the exact issue with phil in NY. He's not adapting at all, whereas riley has adapted to the game several times over. How is this not clear?



My point about Riley was not that he did a 180 just for the hell of it, he did a 180 because the players he was handed (good players) played that style, so he only needed to add similar players. With Phil, what did he need to adapt to? He inherited a garbage, mediocre team. I was specifically responding to the fact that people are saying that Fox isn't a "Phil guard." I find this too general. Was KP a Phil forward? I don't think so. Yes, you can criticize Phil for sticking too close to the triangle, but he has definitely not simply stuck with triangle oriented players only. If he feels Fox is the BPA, he will take Fox. I don't think he is that much of a slave to the triangle where he will willingly pass up talent for lesser talent.


I'm not saying I know exactly what phil will do. No one does. However, he hasn't adapted to the way the game is played today, and a constant theme has been ignoring guard depth as he's re-done the roster several times over. Even with bringing in rose, it was a poor decision as rose doesn't create nearly enough for others when he gets in the paint. Riley did infact adapt to small ball in the lebron era, which was the 3rd time he changed his game plan since coaching / GMing. Maybe phil proves us wrong and drafts a PG to develop, but his track record in that department is poor.



If he hasn't adapted to the way the game is played today, wouldn't he have picked Mudiay over KP? KP is THE prototypical stretch 5 that teams are desiring. He brought in Rose specifically because it was low risk, because he didn't want to pay a Mike Conley 135 million dollars. To be, this is the definition of adaptation. Riley didn't adapt at all with Miami, he landed Lebron and Bosh and said, hooray for me, now we have a super team. Also, you can't say Phil's track record is poor with PGs when he has had very few options. What point guards did we have or should have had that would show you he wants to develop PGs over what he has done? Do you remember the PGs on the roster the year Phil arrived? It's like a crime scene. And he didn't have cap space or a first rounder after his first year, so he was sort of hamstrung. In fact, he traded for Grant, a low risk gamble that unfortunately didn't work out, so he has shown an ability to take younger PGs. The PGs in this draft destroy Grant in terms of talent.
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#423 » by moocow007 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:06 pm

Knickerbock wrote:After yesterdays elimination performance.... Are you guys still high on Tatum..?


I wasn't ever sky high on Tatum. I would put Tatum in about the 5-8 maybe 6-8 range value wise.
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#424 » by Nyk_Fatboy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:12 pm

Knickerbock wrote:After yesterdays elimination performance.... Are you guys still high on Tatum..?

Cause about a week ago... thats the only thing y'all were talkin about..


Yes the tournament doesn't sum up a players overall season. In no specific order my top 5 is Jackson, Ball, Fultz, Tatum, Dennis
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#425 » by shtolky » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:13 pm

I think one thing we can all agree on is the draft will be absolutely fascinating, even more so if we are in the 6-8 range, simply because we have no idea who we will be picking. 1-3 we have a pretty good idea. I can't wait for the lottery.
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#426 » by moocow007 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:17 pm

The Knicks need a top 3 pick...there's no way around it. Any of the other guys might be ok but there is no team that is in more desperate need of a top 3 pick than the Knicks.
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#427 » by Clyde Frazier » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:19 pm

shtolky wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:
shtolky wrote:

My point about Riley was not that he did a 180 just for the hell of it, he did a 180 because the players he was handed (good players) played that style, so he only needed to add similar players. With Phil, what did he need to adapt to? He inherited a garbage, mediocre team. I was specifically responding to the fact that people are saying that Fox isn't a "Phil guard." I find this too general. Was KP a Phil forward? I don't think so. Yes, you can criticize Phil for sticking too close to the triangle, but he has definitely not simply stuck with triangle oriented players only. If he feels Fox is the BPA, he will take Fox. I don't think he is that much of a slave to the triangle where he will willingly pass up talent for lesser talent.


I'm not saying I know exactly what phil will do. No one does. However, he hasn't adapted to the way the game is played today, and a constant theme has been ignoring guard depth as he's re-done the roster several times over. Even with bringing in rose, it was a poor decision as rose doesn't create nearly enough for others when he gets in the paint. Riley did infact adapt to small ball in the lebron era, which was the 3rd time he changed his game plan since coaching / GMing. Maybe phil proves us wrong and drafts a PG to develop, but his track record in that department is poor.



If he hasn't adapted to the way the game is played today, wouldn't he have picked Mudiay over KP? KP is THE prototypical stretch 5 that teams are desiring. He brought in Rose specifically because it was low risk, because he didn't want to pay a Mike Conley 135 million dollars. To be, this is the definition of adaptation. Riley didn't adapt at all with Miami, he landed Lebron and Bosh and said, hooray for me, now we have a super team. Also, you can't say Phil's track record is poor with PGs when he has had very few options. What point guards did we have or should have had that would show you he wants to develop PGs over what he has done? Do you remember the PGs on the roster the year Phil arrived? It's like a crime scene. And he didn't have cap space or a first rounder after his first year, so he was sort of hamstrung. In fact, he traded for Grant, a low risk gamble that unfortunately didn't work out, so he has shown an ability to take younger PGs. The PGs in this draft destroy Grant in terms of talent.


The exact opposite. Mudiay was a dynamic PG prospect who could run the P&R and get in the paint at will to penetrate and dish. We've barely had that on the roster since phil took over, and in general the guard depth (as in PG/SG) has been outright terrible. There's no scenario where vujacic should be getting rotation minutes, yet he was STARTING LAST SEASON when afflalo was hurt.

Grant was never given a chance, period. Rambis was literally playing calderon 35+ MPG toward the end of last season, where quiet calderon had to publicly go to the press to plead with him to stop.

He hasn’t given opportunities to many fringe NBA guards to see if they work out. I’m not a jimmer supporter, but that crap last year when he killed it in the d league for months, and then barely even played when they finally gave him a 10 day was a joke. He at least deserved a chance on an NBA court to prove himself. Randle should’ve ‘been on the roster all year, but again vujacic took up a valuable roster spot. And when rose missed some games here and there, we had no backup PG, because baker hadn’t really come into the fold yet.

Not to mention a talented guard like dinwiddie was readily available, and phil just sat there. And we can’t even hate on the nets at this point, so over the last 36 games, he’s put up some serviceable numbers: 7.6 PPG, 3.1 RPG, 3.6 APG, .6 SPG on 42/42/82 splits. And it didn’t have to be dinwiddie specifically, but just giving more chances to guys to see if we can find diamonds in the rough. It hasn’t happened nearly enough.

And yes, KP is a prototypical stretch 5, but he barely plays in the P&R which is one of his strengths. And i’m going to nail this into the ground: the reason the knicks continue to suck is because we don’t have a starting PG who gets melo and KP good shots. There’s no reason those 2 guys should be scoring below league average efficiency, which they now are. Knicks management overall has failed us in that regard since melo came aboard. 12-13 season was a blueprint for success, and it’s largely been ignored.
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#428 » by Mecca » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:25 pm

moocow007 wrote:The Knicks need a top 3 pick...there's no way around it. Any of the other guys might be ok but there is no team that is in more desperate need of a top 3 pick than the Knicks.


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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#429 » by whocares1 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:28 pm

shtolky wrote:
whocares1 wrote:
shtolky wrote:

Phil didn't choose KP because of his strengths in the triangle, he took him because he felt he would be the best prospect. I didn't say he would be passing up talent for nothing, but if Fox is there are 7, he is probably the BPA unless someone slips. My point being, Fox not being a "Phil type of guard" is probably a bit overstated and it wouldn't stop him from grabbing him if he's available when we pick.


So before it happens. If Frank, Monk and Fox are all available if we pick 6th, you're saying he's going to pick Fox?


I am usually not in the business of predicting what other people will do, only what I would do, but since you asked, yes, I believe he would take Fox over those two. I think he is the best player of the bunch and I think Phil values talent upgrade over anything. Now, you're putting Frank in that list and I just think he is too much of an unknown right now. Ask me again after his pre-draft workouts. But given Fox's game, make up, and style, I think he is the best player between the three. Also, and this might be minor, but Phil seems to like high character guys and Fox seems like he has his head on straight, but again, this is minor. Do you not agree with this? You think he would pick someone else?


I think he'd pick the latter two over Fox.

EDIT: I agree with you that out of the three Fox looks like the most talented but I haven't seen much Frank.
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#430 » by magnumt » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:41 pm

moocow007 wrote:
Knickerbock wrote:After yesterdays elimination performance.... Are you guys still high on Tatum..?


I wasn't ever sky high on Tatum. I would put Tatum in about the 5-8 maybe 6-8 range value wise.


Same here, on both counts. I never believed he was an option at #4 for the Magic. If they go Wing, they're likely going Monk. It they will go with the Florida connection in the bum that is known as Isaac (maaaaaaaaybe Laurri too) :D . Assuming Hennigan isn't fired. :lol:

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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#431 » by whocares1 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:48 pm

If Tatum falls it'll be a blessing.
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#432 » by dakomish23 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:51 pm

Capn'O wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:If ORL drafts a PG, would anyone be interested in trading for Payton? Not sure what the cost would be


Depends on who's available when we draft but I was just thinking this an hour ago.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/orlando_magic/

Orlando's salary structure is weird. Not a lot they'd want to dump along with Payton other than maybe Biyombo who I want no part of. CJ Watson? Maybe they'd make a good third team in a Melo deal?

I'd still be interested in a Rubio salary dump but I have my doubts that Minny was really willing to do it.


You consider Rubio a salary dump? I consider him a gigantic upgrade
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#433 » by koogiking » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:54 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:
shtolky wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:
I'm not saying I know exactly what phil will do. No one does. However, he hasn't adapted to the way the game is played today, and a constant theme has been ignoring guard depth as he's re-done the roster several times over. Even with bringing in rose, it was a poor decision as rose doesn't create nearly enough for others when he gets in the paint. Riley did infact adapt to small ball in the lebron era, which was the 3rd time he changed his game plan since coaching / GMing. Maybe phil proves us wrong and drafts a PG to develop, but his track record in that department is poor.



If he hasn't adapted to the way the game is played today, wouldn't he have picked Mudiay over KP? KP is THE prototypical stretch 5 that teams are desiring. He brought in Rose specifically because it was low risk, because he didn't want to pay a Mike Conley 135 million dollars. To be, this is the definition of adaptation. Riley didn't adapt at all with Miami, he landed Lebron and Bosh and said, hooray for me, now we have a super team. Also, you can't say Phil's track record is poor with PGs when he has had very few options. What point guards did we have or should have had that would show you he wants to develop PGs over what he has done? Do you remember the PGs on the roster the year Phil arrived? It's like a crime scene. And he didn't have cap space or a first rounder after his first year, so he was sort of hamstrung. In fact, he traded for Grant, a low risk gamble that unfortunately didn't work out, so he has shown an ability to take younger PGs. The PGs in this draft destroy Grant in terms of talent.


The exact opposite. Mudiay was a dynamic PG prospect who could run the P&R and get in the paint at will to penetrate and dish. We've barely had that on the roster since phil took over, and in general the guard depth (as in PG/SG) has been outright terrible. There's no scenario where vujacic should be getting rotation minutes, yet he was STARTING LAST SEASON when afflalo was hurt.

Grant was never given a chance, period. Rambis was literally playing calderon 35+ MPG toward the end of last season, where quiet calderon had to publicly go to the press to plead with him to stop.

He hasn’t given opportunities to many fringe NBA guards to see if they work out. I’m not a jimmer supporter, but that crap last year when he killed it in the d league for months, and then barely even played when they finally gave him a 10 day was a joke. He at least deserved a chance on an NBA court to prove himself. Randle should’ve ‘been on the roster all year, but again vujacic took up a valuable roster spot. And when rose missed some games here and there, we had no backup PG, because baker hadn’t really come into the fold yet.

Not to mention a talented guard like dinwiddie was readily available, and phil just sat there. And we can’t even hate on the nets at this point, so over the last 36 games, he’s put up some serviceable numbers: 7.6 PPG, 3.1 RPG, 3.6 APG, .6 SPG on 42/42/82 splits. And it didn’t have to be dinwiddie specifically, but just giving more chances to guys to see if we can find diamonds in the rough. It hasn’t happened nearly enough.

And yes, KP is a prototypical stretch 5, but he barely plays in the P&R which is one of his strengths. And i’m going to nail this into the ground: the reason the knicks continue to suck is because we don’t have a starting PG who gets melo and KP good shots. There’s no reason those 2 guys should be scoring below league average efficiency, which they now are. Knicks management overall has failed us in that regard since melo came aboard. 12-13 season was a blueprint for success, and it’s largely been ignored.


All Facts. It's so simple but management keeps outsmarting themselves smh
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#434 » by dakomish23 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:55 pm

magnumt wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
Knickerbock wrote:After yesterdays elimination performance.... Are you guys still high on Tatum..?


I wasn't ever sky high on Tatum. I would put Tatum in about the 5-8 maybe 6-8 range value wise.


Same here, on both counts. I never believed he was an option at #4 for the Magic. If they go Wing, they're likely going Monk. It they will go with the Florida connection in the bum that is known as Isaac (maaaaaaaaybe Laurri too) :D . Assuming Hennigan isn't fired. :lol:

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Not that this should stop them, but they got two guys in Fournier and Ross taking up time at those slots. They're going PG either Fox or Smith. They'll be in position to get one of those guys.
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#435 » by Capn'O » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:59 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:If ORL drafts a PG, would anyone be interested in trading for Payton? Not sure what the cost would be


Depends on who's available when we draft but I was just thinking this an hour ago.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/orlando_magic/

Orlando's salary structure is weird. Not a lot they'd want to dump along with Payton other than maybe Biyombo who I want no part of. CJ Watson? Maybe they'd make a good third team in a Melo deal?

I'd still be interested in a Rubio salary dump but I have my doubts that Minny was really willing to do it.


You consider Rubio a salary dump? I consider him a gigantic upgrade


That's how the alleged Rose trade was presented by many reporters for Minny's angle. I did not and do not believe it but would love to be wrong.
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#436 » by dakomish23 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:02 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:
shtolky wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:
I'm not saying I know exactly what phil will do. No one does. However, he hasn't adapted to the way the game is played today, and a constant theme has been ignoring guard depth as he's re-done the roster several times over. Even with bringing in rose, it was a poor decision as rose doesn't create nearly enough for others when he gets in the paint. Riley did infact adapt to small ball in the lebron era, which was the 3rd time he changed his game plan since coaching / GMing. Maybe phil proves us wrong and drafts a PG to develop, but his track record in that department is poor.



If he hasn't adapted to the way the game is played today, wouldn't he have picked Mudiay over KP? KP is THE prototypical stretch 5 that teams are desiring. He brought in Rose specifically because it was low risk, because he didn't want to pay a Mike Conley 135 million dollars. To be, this is the definition of adaptation. Riley didn't adapt at all with Miami, he landed Lebron and Bosh and said, hooray for me, now we have a super team. Also, you can't say Phil's track record is poor with PGs when he has had very few options. What point guards did we have or should have had that would show you he wants to develop PGs over what he has done? Do you remember the PGs on the roster the year Phil arrived? It's like a crime scene. And he didn't have cap space or a first rounder after his first year, so he was sort of hamstrung. In fact, he traded for Grant, a low risk gamble that unfortunately didn't work out, so he has shown an ability to take younger PGs. The PGs in this draft destroy Grant in terms of talent.


The exact opposite. Mudiay was a dynamic PG prospect who could run the P&R and get in the paint at will to penetrate and dish. We've barely had that on the roster since phil took over, and in general the guard depth (as in PG/SG) has been outright terrible. There's no scenario where vujacic should be getting rotation minutes, yet he was STARTING LAST SEASON when afflalo was hurt.

Grant was never given a chance, period. Rambis was literally playing calderon 35+ MPG toward the end of last season, where quiet calderon had to publicly go to the press to plead with him to stop.

He hasn’t given opportunities to many fringe NBA guards to see if they work out. I’m not a jimmer supporter, but that crap last year when he killed it in the d league for months, and then barely even played when they finally gave him a 10 day was a joke. He at least deserved a chance on an NBA court to prove himself. Randle should’ve ‘been on the roster all year, but again vujacic took up a valuable roster spot. And when rose missed some games here and there, we had no backup PG, because baker hadn’t really come into the fold yet.

Not to mention a talented guard like dinwiddie was readily available, and phil just sat there. And we can’t even hate on the nets at this point, so over the last 36 games, he’s put up some serviceable numbers: 7.6 PPG, 3.1 RPG, 3.6 APG, .6 SPG on 42/42/82 splits. And it didn’t have to be dinwiddie specifically, but just giving more chances to guys to see if we can find diamonds in the rough. It hasn’t happened nearly enough.

And yes, KP is a prototypical stretch 5, but he barely plays in the P&R which is one of his strengths. And i’m going to nail this into the ground: the reason the knicks continue to suck is because we don’t have a starting PG who gets melo and KP good shots. There’s no reason those 2 guys should be scoring below league average efficiency, which they now are. Knicks management overall has failed us in that regard since melo came aboard. 12-13 season was a blueprint for success, and it’s largely been ignored.


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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#437 » by Knickerbock » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:04 pm

Capn'O wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
Depends on who's available when we draft but I was just thinking this an hour ago.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/orlando_magic/

Orlando's salary structure is weird. Not a lot they'd want to dump along with Payton other than maybe Biyombo who I want no part of. CJ Watson? Maybe they'd make a good third team in a Melo deal?

I'd still be interested in a Rubio salary dump but I have my doubts that Minny was really willing to do it.


You consider Rubio a salary dump? I consider him a gigantic upgrade


That's how the alleged Rose trade was presented by many reporters for Minny's angle. I did not and do not believe it but would love to be wrong.


Well if we did get rubio... chances are the team chemistry would have been better.. and we would not be talking about potentially landing a top 3 draft pick...
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#438 » by Knickerbock » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:12 pm

Should the Knicks management "tank" right off the bat next year?

Meaning:
Trade our vets this summer for future draft picks
Allow the young guys more playing time in order to develop
Finish the season with best chance at top draft pick
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#439 » by Capn'O » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:14 pm

Knickerbock wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
You consider Rubio a salary dump? I consider him a gigantic upgrade


That's how the alleged Rose trade was presented by many reporters for Minny's angle. I did not and do not believe it but would love to be wrong.


Well if we did get rubio... chances are the team chemistry would have been better.. and we would not be talking about potentially landing a top 3 draft pick...


Sure. I'm talking about trading a TPE and maybe some smaller parts for him in the offseason. If Minny is looking for a salary dump to build around Dunn we can help with that.

EDIT: My point anyway is that I don't think that's what they are/were looking for.
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Re: Draft Thread 5th Ed. - (Currently T-6th, 1back of 5th, 5 back of 3rd) 

Post#440 » by N Y K » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:20 pm

RIP 2017 draft thread... you will be missed.
#teamcoolwithwhoeverclarencepicks

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