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Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#161 » by K-DOT » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:19 am

Sprewell4Three wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
Sprewell4Three wrote:
That's reasonable but the guy is shooting damn near 55% from the field. And shooting 40% from three. The guy has an unorthodox shot but he can shoot. He's about 6'7 and he will be able to shoot over most pgs in the league.

I think he'll be fine, I'm just more sold on Fultz and Jackson at this point, Ball's question marks are just a little bigger than the two of them

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It also depends what you want though. Fultz could be a Dame Lillard type of player and Ball could be JKidd type of player.

I think this team would benefit more from the scoring of Fultz than the playmaking of Ball going forward
Plus, I don't think either of them project to be great defenders like Kidd was, so that side of the ball is about equal
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#162 » by Marty McFly » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:26 am

sushibear wrote:
Marty McFly wrote:
FirePjax wrote:Melo's hinting at leaving........AGAIN

This dude is beyond annoying at this point. Just go melo for God's sake. And STFU while you're at it.

so, the anthony family still has a home in la. interesting. lolclippers.


problem is that the clips dont really want him. doc wont trade sheit for him and this isnt denver melo anymore.

that's because doc is a moron. even if it isn't denver melo he still could have helped them.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#163 » by moocow007 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:27 am

Marty McFly wrote:
sushibear wrote:
Marty McFly wrote:so, the anthony family still has a home in la. interesting. lolclippers.


problem is that the clips dont really want him. doc wont trade sheit for him and this isnt denver melo anymore.

that's because doc is a moron. even if it isn't denver melo he still could have helped them.


Not if Anthony is an absolute piece of crap as appears to be the popular mantra.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#164 » by Billy Goat » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:28 am

moocow007 wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
Carmelo Anthony is not a sunk cost. That's just an idiotic statement. Buyout? Why on earth would the Knicks buy him out? Because they're morons? Anthony not being Lebron James or the same guy from his peak doesn't mean he's absolute crap. He may not net great value but let's not get carried away to the other extreme.


Of course he's a sunk cost. Just because you think he has value doesnt make it true. Add on the fact he has a no trade and a kicker...you're basically staring into the abyss here the next two seasons. The Knicks are obviously not winning anything within the next two years if he stays. Getting other guys shots and opportunities is in the best interest of the team imo. He dominates the ball and doesnt do anything else really well other than take shots. This isnt something franchises are looking to deal for.


Getting what other guys shots and opportunities? The Knicks have Porzingis. That's it. What other guys are you thinking can actually do anything? How about if they just hire all of us and give us a shot? Anthony doesn't do anything well other than take shots? You do realize that you actually have to make baskets to win games right? What Anthony is doing now is what he's always been doing and what A LOT OF OTHER players have been doing that have been valuable for teams that want to win. The main difference is that, unlike many of the other "shot takers" he's had absolutely **** to play with. And since he's been on the Knicks the system has been ****. Tell me one other offensive player of his caliber that has had as little help in a system that not only doesn't fit him but just about anyone else on the team? There is no need to dump him for nothing. If they can't get anything for him then there's no reason to trade him.


Well you're going to have what looks to be another top 5 pick on the roster next year. Hernangomez who's sitting at a 57.5 TS% as a rookie. Porzingis obviously. Take away Anthony's shots(mostly mid range 2's) and disperse them among the younger guys and see what happens. Hell throw in Holiday there too- he deserves more shots and PT as well. What we do know now is that the offense with Melo getting the lions share of the looks and dominating the ball isnt working.

The system being blamed is a silly scapegoat. Melo dominates the ball on offense and his assist numbers have been putrid...and he doesnt have the TS% to justify having the ball that much especially if he isnt going to facilitate. Not sure how long this has to go one for folks to see hes a huge reason this franchise is stuck in the mud.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#165 » by moocow007 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:36 am

Billy Goat wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
Of course he's a sunk cost. Just because you think he has value doesnt make it true. Add on the fact he has a no trade and a kicker...you're basically staring into the abyss here the next two seasons. The Knicks are obviously not winning anything within the next two years if he stays. Getting other guys shots and opportunities is in the best interest of the team imo. He dominates the ball and doesnt do anything else really well other than take shots. This isnt something franchises are looking to deal for.


Getting what other guys shots and opportunities? The Knicks have Porzingis. That's it. What other guys are you thinking can actually do anything? How about if they just hire all of us and give us a shot? Anthony doesn't do anything well other than take shots? You do realize that you actually have to make baskets to win games right? What Anthony is doing now is what he's always been doing and what A LOT OF OTHER players have been doing that have been valuable for teams that want to win. The main difference is that, unlike many of the other "shot takers" he's had absolutely **** to play with. And since he's been on the Knicks the system has been ****. Tell me one other offensive player of his caliber that has had as little help in a system that not only doesn't fit him but just about anyone else on the team? There is no need to dump him for nothing. If they can't get anything for him then there's no reason to trade him.


Well you're going to have what looks to be another top 5 pick on the roster next year. Hernangomez who's sitting at a 57.5 TS% as a rookie. Porzingis obviously. Take away Anthony's shots(mostly mid range 2's) and disperse them among the younger guys and see what happens. Hell throw in Holiday there too- he deserves more shots and PT as well. What we do know now is that the offense with Melo getting the lions share of the looks and dominating the ball isnt working.

The system being blamed is a silly scapegoat. Melo dominates the ball on offense and his assist numbers have been putrid...and he doesnt have the TS% to justify having the ball that much especially if he isnt going to facilitate. Not sure how long this has to go one for folks to see hes a huge reason this franchise is stuck in the mud.


Huh? The system absolutely should be blamed every bit as Anthony. The best player Anthony has had to team with is half a season of Amare Stoudemire. When JR Smith is the next best player on the team for a good portion of Anthony's early years here ABSOLUTELY the system is the problem. Carmelo Anthony is not Lebron James. Folks seem to still be unable to realize that. Anthony has had crap teammates AND crap coaches AND crap front offices unable to put the type of players that around him that actually can offset what he does well and what he doesn't do well. Other than that one season when they got it right, what exactly has the front office down to help things? Are you expecting to be on the Lebron James level? What other star player could have made a team with the talent and coaching that the Knicks have thrown out there ESPECIALLY during the Phil Jackson era that would have been able to win anything? Tell me. And yet no one else is to blame but Anthony? Ludicrous.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#166 » by BeagleBoss » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:45 am

Just give Ball the ball and hope Phil and his toxic triangle doesn't ruin him. Use the next 2 years to develop chemistry between Ball and KP. Look, the next 2 years are going to be the same as this one. We just need to bite the bullet and take it and hope KP continues to get better and have something good in place for the next regime in 2020.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#167 » by Billy Goat » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:46 am

moocow007 wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
Getting what other guys shots and opportunities? The Knicks have Porzingis. That's it. What other guys are you thinking can actually do anything? How about if they just hire all of us and give us a shot? Anthony doesn't do anything well other than take shots? You do realize that you actually have to make baskets to win games right? What Anthony is doing now is what he's always been doing and what A LOT OF OTHER players have been doing that have been valuable for teams that want to win. The main difference is that, unlike many of the other "shot takers" he's had absolutely **** to play with. And since he's been on the Knicks the system has been ****. Tell me one other offensive player of his caliber that has had as little help in a system that not only doesn't fit him but just about anyone else on the team? There is no need to dump him for nothing. If they can't get anything for him then there's no reason to trade him.


Well you're going to have what looks to be another top 5 pick on the roster next year. Hernangomez who's sitting at a 57.5 TS% as a rookie. Porzingis obviously. Take away Anthony's shots(mostly mid range 2's) and disperse them among the younger guys and see what happens. Hell throw in Holiday there too- he deserves more shots and PT as well. What we do know now is that the offense with Melo getting the lions share of the looks and dominating the ball isnt working.

The system being blamed is a silly scapegoat. Melo dominates the ball on offense and his assist numbers have been putrid...and he doesnt have the TS% to justify having the ball that much especially if he isnt going to facilitate. Not sure how long this has to go one for folks to see hes a huge reason this franchise is stuck in the mud.


Huh? The system absolutely should be blamed every bit as Anthony. The best player Anthony has had to team with is half a season of Amare Stoudemire. When JR Smith is the next best player on the team for a good portion of Anthony's early years here ABSOLUTELY the system is the problem. Carmelo Anthony is not Lebron James. Folks seem to still be unable to realize that. Anthony has had crap teammates AND crap coaches AND crap front offices unable to put the type of players that around him that actually can offset what he does well and what he doesn't do well. Other than that one season when they got it right, what exactly has the front office down to help things? Are you expecting to be on the Lebron James level? What other star player could have made a team with the talent and coaching that the Knicks have thrown out there ESPECIALLY during the Phil Jackson era that would have been able to win anything? Tell me. And yet no one else is to blame but Anthony? Ludicrous.


This is a lot of deflection. Not to rehash the past but we all know how much the organization gave up for Melo and they're still paying the price of the trade with all the assets and picks lost.

He's obviously not Lebron but he's paid like he is that caliber of player. He dominates the ball. Guys that dominate the ball as wings as much as he does and are on max deals have to facilitate. Harden does, Westbrook does, Kawhi Durant always did etc. Melo never has. His shot selection has always been questionable at best. There's nothing other than him taking a bunch of shots that he does well. There's hardly any value in that either especially if they're not going in. He's an average rebounder, below average defender and a below average facilitator...all while taking up a huge portion of the cap and a NTC. The coaches have changed, the players have changed, the results have not...its time to move on.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#168 » by Sprewell4Three » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:05 am

K-DOT wrote:
Sprewell4Three wrote:
K-DOT wrote:I think he'll be fine, I'm just more sold on Fultz and Jackson at this point, Ball's question marks are just a little bigger than the two of them

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It also depends what you want though. Fultz could be a Dame Lillard type of player and Ball could be JKidd type of player.

I think this team would benefit more from the scoring of Fultz than the playmaking of Ball going forward
Plus, I don't think either of them project to be great defenders like Kidd was, so that side of the ball is about equal


We have a scoring guard in Rose. Hows that helped the team thus far? I don't want to blame everything on Rose but I would take the guy that I know can make KP into a better player (Ball).
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Re: RE: Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#169 » by BeagleBoss » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:15 am

Greenie wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
ibraheim718 wrote:I think in that situation Phil wouldn't trade Melo and Melo wouldn't request a trade. I think he'd be fine staying in NY to play with Ball rather than ring chasing.


I don't think our defense would be good enough to "ring chase"

Ball would make our offense run like clockwork but our defense would still be atrocious and Ball isn't changing that. I would rather have a 3/D guy then Melo in that situation.

Not even.

KP
Melo
?(Call Charlotte about MKG)
Lee
Ball


That's what I would do. It takes both KP and Melo off the perimeter, adds an elite perimeter defender to a solid one in Lee and has a floor general.


That team would actually do damage.

Not with Phil, his triangle, Rambis' "d", Melo and Hornecek still on this team. We're stuck in mud right now. Can't move forward until those mentioned are gone.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#170 » by Dr. Detfink » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:15 am

KnicksGod wrote:That $6M used to be like $4M under the old cap, less than the player average. Now maybe a lot of us don't think he's average. But what are we talking about, a million or two dollars?

Melo, I think he's gonzo.


The Knicks are presently $6M over the cap. When Rose's expiring is off the books that leaves the Knicks with roughly $13M or according to your math that's $2M dollars which means ZERO possibility of signing any one to get better.

But if these virtual "$1-2M" contracts in the form of $6M or more are so low then why can't the Knicks move anyone?

I'll tell you why, because teams KNOW it's unwise to spend unless you have a transcendent player to chase after.

This is why the Wolves who tried to dump Rubio on the Knicks, would NOT give up a draft pick for an expiring. Much like every team who plans to dump the Knicks longer contracts for a fading superstar.

That's the one thing the Knicks don't need. More bad contracts.

As for Melo, I really can't see this guy going. No one wants him at the cost of cap space, no-trade clause, or draft picks. They'll wait for him to opt out.

Phil would rather suck another season with Melo than give him his wishes and sack the Knicks with worse contracts.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#171 » by moocow007 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:19 am

Billy Goat wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
Well you're going to have what looks to be another top 5 pick on the roster next year. Hernangomez who's sitting at a 57.5 TS% as a rookie. Porzingis obviously. Take away Anthony's shots(mostly mid range 2's) and disperse them among the younger guys and see what happens. Hell throw in Holiday there too- he deserves more shots and PT as well. What we do know now is that the offense with Melo getting the lions share of the looks and dominating the ball isnt working.

The system being blamed is a silly scapegoat. Melo dominates the ball on offense and his assist numbers have been putrid...and he doesnt have the TS% to justify having the ball that much especially if he isnt going to facilitate. Not sure how long this has to go one for folks to see hes a huge reason this franchise is stuck in the mud.


Huh? The system absolutely should be blamed every bit as Anthony. The best player Anthony has had to team with is half a season of Amare Stoudemire. When JR Smith is the next best player on the team for a good portion of Anthony's early years here ABSOLUTELY the system is the problem. Carmelo Anthony is not Lebron James. Folks seem to still be unable to realize that. Anthony has had crap teammates AND crap coaches AND crap front offices unable to put the type of players that around him that actually can offset what he does well and what he doesn't do well. Other than that one season when they got it right, what exactly has the front office down to help things? Are you expecting to be on the Lebron James level? What other star player could have made a team with the talent and coaching that the Knicks have thrown out there ESPECIALLY during the Phil Jackson era that would have been able to win anything? Tell me. And yet no one else is to blame but Anthony? Ludicrous.


This is a lot of deflection. Not to rehash the past but we all know how much the organization gave up for Melo and they're still paying the price of the trade with all the assets and picks lost.


What does that have to do with Anthony? This narrative that Anthony somehow is the GM or had so much pull that he can actually force grown men into trading for him is silly. It is. It really is. No one forced the Knicks to make that trade. And to be quite honest, that trade wasn't exactly lopsided even with the Knicks going the extra mile beyond what they apparently could have and still gotten Anthony (i.e. Masai Ujrii actually stated that he figured there was no harm in asking the Knicks...not Carmelo Anthony...the Knicks for that extra pick swap AND Mozgov...he said that he didn't expect them...the Knicks front office, not Carmelo Anthony, to agree but...hey, they agreed).

He's obviously not Lebron but he's paid like he is that caliber of player.


But again, what does that have to do with Anthony? Do you expect Anthony to say, "you know what guys, Lebron is better than me, so since the CBA has a cap on max salary, you shouldn't give me anywhere near what Lebron is forced to take because of the max salary limits?" Carmelo Anthony is paid what the Knicks (and the economy of the NBA) decided he's worth. If there were no max salary limit I'm sure Lebron James would be getting paid A LOT more than he is and A LOT more than Anthony. But he's not, but that has nothing to do with Anthony.

He dominates the ball. Guys that dominate the ball as wings as much as he does and are on max deals have to facilitate. Harden does, Westbrook does, Kawhi Durant always did etc.


So you want to crucify him because he's not on the same level as 2 guys that are favorites to win the MVP award this year AND another 2 guys that most consider to be among the top 5-6 players in the NBA? YOu just pointed to 5 of probably the top 6 guys in the NBA (in Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, Leonard and Durant).

But ok, let's take a look at the team and the system that those guys play in. Durant had Westbrook (who is himself already better than Anthony) and now has the Warriors team. Westbrook had Durant (see previous comment about Anthony). Leonard is on the best run organization in basketball in a system that is tailored around him...same with Harden. Anthony? He has had JR Smith as his longest/best running mate up until Porzingis the last year and change.

Melo never has. His shot selection has always been questionable at best. There's nothing other than him taking a bunch of shots that he does well. There's hardly any value in that either especially if they're not going in. He's an average rebounder, below average defender and a below average facilitator...


What do you mean Anthony never has? Anthony was one of the most dominant offensive players in the game. And offense DOES MATTER. The general consensus was that the "great package" that Anthony somehow convinced the Knicks to give up to get him wasn't the best package that the Nuggets could have gotten had Anthony been willing to go to any team. That tells you what the perceived value for Anthony was at the time. Anthony, with JR Smith as his "best man" helped lead the Knicks to their best season in over a decade and was the only player other than the one that won the MVP award to actually garner a 1st place vote for MVP that year. You're telling me someone like that wouldn't be valuable? So the notion that he never has had any value is just plain incorrect.

all while taking up a huge portion of the cap and a NTC. The coaches have changed, the players have changed, the results have not...its time to move on.


Again, Anthony's contract when factored against the actual "super max" contracts that players not of his caliber have and will be getting, is not as deadly as you present it to be. That NTC obviously doesn't help but that goes to my claim that the front office is every bit to blame as Anthony for the KNicks failures. No one forced Jackson to give Anthony that ridiculous NTC and yet Jackson did. Do you actually believe that Anthony was going to leave if he didn't get an NTC or that the NTC, which Anthony never had asked for previously, all of a sudden became a must have? Jackson idiotically did it to get Anthony to agree to take a few million less so he can sell it to the media and/or Dolan that he managed to get Anthony to sign for less than Max. That's all on Jackson being making a stupid decision.

Bottom line...the Knicks have no reason to simply dump Anthony for crap. You still need to be able to score points to win games (which apparently is something that folks may not be fully realizing). Any notion that Porzingis by himself with some help for Hernangomez and someone like Ntilinkina will be sufficient to put up points is crazy. Not to mention Anthony being able to deflect a lot of the blame and fingerpointing away from Porzingis as he develops. I don't get this thing where Anthony is being painted as the proverbial Anti-Christ here by Knick fans. But then again, I shouldn't be surprised since they did the same thing to Bernard King, then to Patrick Ewing, then to Stephon Marbury when those guys couldn't literally all by themselves lead the Knicks to anything in spite of the fact that none of them have ever been given the type of players around them to be allow them to do so given that they weren't better than some of the other players of their time that were clearly a lot better than they and who had much better teams.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#172 » by Billy Goat » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:28 am

moocow007 wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
Huh? The system absolutely should be blamed every bit as Anthony. The best player Anthony has had to team with is half a season of Amare Stoudemire. When JR Smith is the next best player on the team for a good portion of Anthony's early years here ABSOLUTELY the system is the problem. Carmelo Anthony is not Lebron James. Folks seem to still be unable to realize that. Anthony has had crap teammates AND crap coaches AND crap front offices unable to put the type of players that around him that actually can offset what he does well and what he doesn't do well. Other than that one season when they got it right, what exactly has the front office down to help things? Are you expecting to be on the Lebron James level? What other star player could have made a team with the talent and coaching that the Knicks have thrown out there ESPECIALLY during the Phil Jackson era that would have been able to win anything? Tell me. And yet no one else is to blame but Anthony? Ludicrous.


This is a lot of deflection. Not to rehash the past but we all know how much the organization gave up for Melo and they're still paying the price of the trade with all the assets and picks lost.


What does that have to do with Anthony? This narrative that Anthony somehow is the GM or had so much pull that he can actually force grown men into trading for him is silly. It is. It really is. No one forced the Knicks to make that trade. And to be quite honest, that trade wasn't exactly lopsided even with the Knicks going the extra mile beyond what they apparently could have and still gotten Anthony (i.e. Masai Ujrii actually stated that he figured there was no harm in asking the Knicks...not Carmelo Anthony...the Knicks for that extra pick swap AND Mozgov...he said that he didn't expect them...the Knicks front office, not Carmelo Anthony, to agree but...hey, they agreed).

He's obviously not Lebron but he's paid like he is that caliber of player.


But again, what does that have to do with Anthony? Do you expect Anthony to say, "you know what guys, Lebron is better than me, so since the CBA has a cap on max salary, you shouldn't give me anywhere near what Lebron is forced to take because of the max salary limits?" Carmelo Anthony is paid what the Knicks (and the economy of the NBA) decided he's worth. If there were no max salary limit I'm sure Lebron James would be getting paid A LOT more than he is and A LOT more than Anthony. But he's not, but that has nothing to do with Anthony.

He dominates the ball. Guys that dominate the ball as wings as much as he does and are on max deals have to facilitate. Harden does, Westbrook does, Kawhi Durant always did etc.


So you want to crucify him because he's not on the same level as 2 guys that are favorites to win the MVP award this year AND another 2 guys that most consider to be among the top 5-6 players in the NBA? YOu just pointed to 5 of probably the top 6 guys in the NBA (in Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, Leonard and Durant).

But ok, let's take a look at the team and the system that those guys play in. Durant had Westbrook (who is himself already better than Anthony) and now has the Warriors team. Westbrook had Durant (see previous comment about Anthony). Leonard is on the best run organization in basketball in a system that is tailored around him...same with Harden. Anthony? He has had JR Smith as his longest/best running mate up until Porzingis the last year and change.

Melo never has. His shot selection has always been questionable at best. There's nothing other than him taking a bunch of shots that he does well. There's hardly any value in that either especially if they're not going in. He's an average rebounder, below average defender and a below average facilitator...


What do you mean Anthony never has? Anthony was one of the most dominant offensive players in the game. And offense DOES MATTER. The general consensus was that the "great package" that Anthony somehow convinced the Knicks to give up to get him wasn't the best package that the Nuggets could have gotten had Anthony been willing to go to any team. That tells you what the perceived value for Anthony was at the time. Anthony, with JR Smith as his "best man" helped lead the Knicks to their best season in over a decade and was the only player other than the one that won the MVP award to actually garner a 1st place vote for MVP that year. You're telling me someone like that wouldn't be valuable? So the notion that he never has had any value is just plain incorrect.

all while taking up a huge portion of the cap and a NTC. The coaches have changed, the players have changed, the results have not...its time to move on.


Again, Anthony's contract when factored against the actual "super max" contracts that players not of his caliber have and will be getting, is not as deadly as you present it to be. That NTC obviously doesn't help but that goes to my claim that the front office is every bit to blame as Anthony for the KNicks failures. No one forced Jackson to give Anthony that ridiculous NTC and yet Jackson did. Do you actually believe that Anthony was going to leave if he didn't get an NTC or that the NTC, which Anthony never had asked for previously, all of a sudden became a must have? Jackson idiotically did it to get Anthony to agree to take a few million less so he can sell it to the media and/or Dolan that he managed to get Anthony to sign for less than Max. That's all on Jackson being making a stupid decision.

Bottom line...the Knicks have no reason to simply dump Anthony for crap. You still need to be able to score points to win games (which apparently is something that folks may not be fully realizing). Any notion that Porzingis by himself with some help for Hernangomez and someone like Ntilinkina will be sufficient to put up points is crazy. Not to mention Anthony being able to deflect a lot of the blame and fingerpointing away from Porzingis as he develops. I don't get this thing where Anthony is being painted as the proverbial Anti-Christ here by Knick fans. But then again, I shouldn't be surprised since they did the same thing to Bernard King, then to Patrick Ewing, then to Stephon Marbury when those guys couldn't literally all by themselves lead the Knicks to anything in spite of the fact that none of them have ever been given the type of players around them to be allow them to do so given that they weren't better than some of the other players of their time that were clearly a lot better than they and who had much better teams.


Will get back to this later if we want to keep going but yes the Knicks are to blame for trading what they did to get him and doubling down with the terrible contract/ntc. The Knicks have no one to blame but themselves for the mess they've been in going on 17 years or so...I just never understood the fascination with Anthony. Scoring without context(efficiency) is basically a meaningless stat that has virtually zero correlation to winning games. The focus shift from scoring to efficiency is a welcome change to how folks see the game of basketball and what wins.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#173 » by K-DOT » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:46 am

Sprewell4Three wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
Sprewell4Three wrote:
It also depends what you want though. Fultz could be a Dame Lillard type of player and Ball could be JKidd type of player.

I think this team would benefit more from the scoring of Fultz than the playmaking of Ball going forward
Plus, I don't think either of them project to be great defenders like Kidd was, so that side of the ball is about equal


We have a scoring guard in Rose. Hows that helped the team thus far? I don't want to blame everything on Rose but I would take the guy that I know can make KP into a better player (Ball).

If Rose would pass more (and make better decisions with the ball when he does pass it) I think our entire offense would open up. Since Rose is one of the worst passing pg's in the league, I assume Fultz would be better
Also, if we commit to the triangle (or Jeff's version of it), then having a scorer wouldn't be the worst thing (since Fultz can actually hit 3s we'd probably be very good, too), since the triangle relies on all 5 players moving the ball instead of having one floor general like Ball would be
My view is that you need a primary scorer, someone you can trust to get you a bucket when you need it. While KP may develop into that, it is much easier to get a guard with that ability, and Fultz will do that, and I don't see Ball becoming that guy. Plus for all we know if we are in a position to get either of them, it'll probably be the last time we get a top pick for a long while
I just think that while Ball is able to elevate his teammates (at least in college), he does actually need talent around him to be the best version of himself, while Fultz doesn't need great players around him
I'm not trying to dismiss Ball, I'd be ecstatic if we got him, just I'd like Fultz more
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#174 » by K-DOT » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:53 am

Billy Goat wrote: Scoring without context(efficiency) is basically a meaningless stat that has virtually zero correlation to winning games. The focus shift from scoring to efficiency is a welcome change to how folks see the game of basketball and what wins.

Didn't Kobe win 5 rings as a low efficiency scorer?
Efficiency is great and everything, but you still need to put up volume numbers at the end of the day.
I'd rather have Jimmy Butler than Otto Porter, because even though Porter is a much more efficient player (63.6 vs 57.6 TS%), Butler will get you wins
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#175 » by spree8 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:57 am

K-DOT wrote:
Billy Goat wrote: Scoring without context(efficiency) is basically a meaningless stat that has virtually zero correlation to winning games. The focus shift from scoring to efficiency is a welcome change to how folks see the game of basketball and what wins.

Didn't Kobe win 5 rings as a low efficiency scorer?
Efficiency is great and everything, but you still need to put up volume numbers at the end of the day.
I'd rather have Jimmy Butler than Otto Porter, because even though Porter is a much more efficient player (63.6 vs 57.6 TS%), Butler will get you wins



Kobe's efficiency wasn't that low? Not as high as Jordan's first 3 championships or Lebron's on the Heat, but comparable to Jordan's last 3, Larry, Wade, and Lebron in Cleveland.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#176 » by K-DOT » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:06 am

spree8 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
Billy Goat wrote: Scoring without context(efficiency) is basically a meaningless stat that has virtually zero correlation to winning games. The focus shift from scoring to efficiency is a welcome change to how folks see the game of basketball and what wins.

Didn't Kobe win 5 rings as a low efficiency scorer?
Efficiency is great and everything, but you still need to put up volume numbers at the end of the day.
I'd rather have Jimmy Butler than Otto Porter, because even though Porter is a much more efficient player (63.6 vs 57.6 TS%), Butler will get you wins



Kobe's efficiency wasn't that low? Not as high as Jordan's first 3 championships or Lebron's on the Heat, but comparable to Jordan's last 3, Larry, Wade, and Lebron in Cleveland.

Kobe has a career TS% of 55, which is average
During his 2 peat where he was the main guy, he had 56 and 54 TS%
Also is the all time leader in field goals missed
Not low effeciency, but not high either
But my point was that at the end of the day all that matters is if you can put up more points than the other guy, and efficiency isn't the be all end all some people say it is
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Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#177 » by Phish Tank » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:12 am

If we are even in the position to draft Lonzo Ball, we are picking him. Doesn't matter if we run triangle or ISO or square or right angles.... Phil may love triangle, but he ain't stupid.

I'm trying to figure out the last time a team that ran triangle passed up on a legitimate point guard talent... anyone?


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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#178 » by spree8 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:35 am

K-DOT wrote:
spree8 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:Didn't Kobe win 5 rings as a low efficiency scorer?
Efficiency is great and everything, but you still need to put up volume numbers at the end of the day.
I'd rather have Jimmy Butler than Otto Porter, because even though Porter is a much more efficient player (63.6 vs 57.6 TS%), Butler will get you wins



Kobe's efficiency wasn't that low? Not as high as Jordan's first 3 championships or Lebron's on the Heat, but comparable to Jordan's last 3, Larry, Wade, and Lebron in Cleveland.

Kobe has a career TS% of 55, which is average
During his 2 peat where he was the main guy, he had 56 and 54 TS%
Also is the all time leader in field goals missed
Not low effeciency, but not high either
But my point was that at the end of the day all that matters is if you can put up more points than the other guy, and efficiency isn't the be all end all some people say it is



Michael's last 2 titles he had worse TS% @ 56 & 53. Larry had worse his first 2 titles @ 52 & 55. Wade's last two were 55 & 57. Jordan & Bird had a career 56 TS% and Wade 55.

Kobe ain't as bad as you're making him sound since he's right there with other top scorers comparable to him.

Also, the list of most missed shots of all time has a lot of big names on it...you gotta take a lot to miss...Hondo, Mailman, Kareem, and Jordan are right behind him in order.

I get this isn't your main point...just tryin to clarify for my boy Kobe :)
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#179 » by GONYK » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:36 am

Phish Tank wrote:If we are even in the position to draft Lonzo Ball, we are picking him. Doesn't matter if we run triangle or ISO or square or right angles.... Phil may love triangle, but he ain't stupid.

I'm trying to figure out the last time a team that ran triangle passed up on a legitimate point guard talent... anyone?


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The Triangle being an anti-PG system is a stupid myth.

A great PG would absolutely kill it in the Triangle
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#180 » by Dr. Detfink » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:14 am

There's no way the Celtics agree to trade for Melo (assuming Melo would waive his no-trade) unless the Knicks took Horford's awful contract and maybe Jae Crowder if they are feeling generous.

Guys are overthinking this. Teams don't want to make deals with a franchise that doesn't have any good relationships with the rest of the league.

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