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Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball

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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#101 » by Capn'O » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:31 pm

SmoothLefty21 wrote:
Bill Pidto wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:
I think it's a mistake for the Knicks not to trade him no matter what ... because I think it's a mistake to think that Ball would be able to change Melo's game a lot.


For some people in this thread, Ball is like the missing piece for Melo. The delusions never end.

Get Melo the F outta here. I don't care if the Knicks end up with a Michael Jordan/LeBron James hybrid.


I wish we traded Melo years ago. I wish we never re-signed him. Too many people on this board act like Melo doesn't have a NTC. If he doesn't want to be traded during the dumpster fire we've had the last three seasons then why in the world would he want to be traded when you add someone like Ball to the equation?


There's a chance he wants to go but wanted to do it during the offseason for planning/family reasons. There's also a chance he won't waive irregardless. Hard to tell from the outside but I suspect the Melodrama will fire up again and we'll find out either way.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#102 » by NoLayupRule » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:34 pm

Bill Pidto wrote:
blueNorange wrote:
Sprewell4Three wrote:If the Knicks get ball, we have to surround him with shooters. I would probably keep Lee and possibly Melo as well. Remember how well Melo played when he actually played with a true point guard (Kidd).

yeah but i'd rather be in a position to draft luka doncic.


Same. I don't wanna hear about how Lonzo is a great fit for Melo and vice versa, even if there's some truth to it. It's not the point. Rebuild. If you get Lonzo, Jackson, Fultz.. rebuild and don't look back.

Lonzo on this exact team is still no where near a title contender. Why not get shed the vets and play the youth? If they can make the playoffs without Melo, then you know you've drafted something special. If not, it's to be expected anyway, and you get another lotto pick.

It's far too early to tell If ball will be one kind or another kind of player in the NBA. One can guess but its a pointless exercise

Almost as pointless as drafting or not drafting based on a fit with melo
Or KP for that matter

Best player available
Every time

If ball is the best player you draft m and worry about team building after that
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#103 » by Billy Goat » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:34 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
Agreed. But they need to get some serious value back and not just basically dump him.


Melo's on a max deal with a NTC. You're not getting value back there. He's a total sunk cost with total control on where he goes. The Knicks are staring at a buyout situation if he's not willing to budge on destinations or leaving at all.


Other then the NTC, his contract isn't bad. Max contracts are going to be starting at up to $36mil per, with $200+mil total deals to put things in perspective. He will have 2 years left on a reasonable deal.

If we shop him during the offseason/free agency will probably be easier to make things work and can find more teams. Just have to convince Melo. Won't get full value, but we should be able to get something.


Well the NTC in itself makes it a terrible contract, plus the trade kicker and the fact the NTC follows him to the next destination. He's going to be 34 and will be coming off of a pretty bad season. There arent going to be many, if any takers...especially if he's not willing to come off the bench and lower his shot volume. Me thinks he's eyeing the 30k points more than anything at this point. If Phil goes, I'd imagine Melo stays(ugh). If Dolan lets Phil stay with full control I'm guessing he'll be bought out and the franchise can finally move in a different direction with hopefully a bluechip talent they get in this draft. The roster, with the role guys they currently have is actually probably the best since the 50 win season. The two guys commanding all the shots just suck.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#104 » by TheDavinciCHODE » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:37 pm

Greenie wrote:
TheDavinciCHODE wrote:The Knicks should trade Melo regardless of who they get in the draft in my opinion. It's time to go a different direction. Melo is still a good player but nto capable of being a primary option on a very good team. His role in the NBA now should be scoring support to a contending team.

He's also serving as a detriment to the touches that KP gets, though more of that could be on Rose......

Honestly, though, if Ball is what he is billed to be, the Knicks might actually want to Keep Melo....

Ball/Melo/KP/Willy is the foundation of a great offense...I just wonder if our defense will ever be able to catch up with Melo and Willy playing big minutes. Also, if Ball isn't as good as he is billed to be right away, then having Melo taking lots of touches from him could also hurt.

I'm praying for a tank job to end all tank jobs and to see the Knicks get Ball and trade Melo, Lee, and Lance. That way we go into the 18' season with Ball and KP having free reign over the court.

However....having a lineup of

Ball
Lee
Lance
Melo
KP

would be pretty fun to watch.

Though I think the limitations of our personnel have been very glaring so far this season

Melo isn't a great small forward anymore, so he is best served offensively and defensively as a power forward...

KP is fine offensively at either position but clearly isn't big enough to hold up as a C full time and not quick enough to chase PF's around the wing.

C lee is getting up there in age and is fine defensively, but struggles during switches...

Rose is....Rose....

ETC

we offer very little in the way of versatility and offensive pieces are at odds with each other. Maximizing KP's strengths means finding a C that can guard the post AND switch out on to forwards on the perimeter a la Dray or Thompson, but those are tough to find.

Maximizing Melo's strengths means putting him at the 4 and putting a rim protector behind him to make up for his perimeter deficiencies a la Tyson on the Mavs with Dirk. Again hard to find.

Both of those situations are at odds with each other, and the latter takes away from KP's development.

Of course, that could all be helped immensely by stopping the ball at the point of attack, since both KP and MElo have proven to be solid help defenders, and even Melo has done well from what I've seen defending even good offensive players in isolation. It's when the ball is moving and shooters are taking us off the dribble on the perimeter that we have a serious issue, and, since this is 2017 in the NBA, that's the norm.

In fact, there's only one team I can think of that is actually not playing ball that way. You know, playing heavy in isolation, slowing the ball down, posting up a lot, taking long two's in iso against set defenses and what not....

hmhmhmhm which team is that...you know, the one that isn't shooting a lot of 3's, getting a lot of assists, or getting to the line much at all.....hmhmhmhmhmhm

What is the name of this team....it starts with a silent K. I think it's Dutch in origin. That Kn sound like Knight, Knackers, Knack, Knudt, and Knife. Something like that.


Ugh, what is the name of that team that is playing like it's 2003 and sporting one of the worst defenses and barely average offenses despite heavy offensive talent.

UGH

HELP ME!!!!!

KN...KNI?....KNI...C?

Is it the Knicks?!?!?!


Oh oh oh I know this answer.
Who are the Brooklyn Nets?


Let's go to the judges

*looks over at judges, one of whom being Phil Jackson with his middle finger extended toward me*

BOOP BOOP

Nope, sorry. We can't accept that answer.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#105 » by Greenie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:44 pm

Billy Goat wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:No matter who we draft we should try to trade Melo


Agreed. But they need to get some serious value back and not just basically dump him.


Melo's on a max deal with a NTC. You're not getting value back there. He's a total sunk cost with total control on where he goes. The Knicks are staring at a buyout situation if he's not willing to budge on destinations or leaving at all.

Melo is not on a max deal.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#106 » by Greenie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:45 pm

TheDavinciCHODE wrote:
Greenie wrote:
TheDavinciCHODE wrote:The Knicks should trade Melo regardless of who they get in the draft in my opinion. It's time to go a different direction. Melo is still a good player but nto capable of being a primary option on a very good team. His role in the NBA now should be scoring support to a contending team.

He's also serving as a detriment to the touches that KP gets, though more of that could be on Rose......

Honestly, though, if Ball is what he is billed to be, the Knicks might actually want to Keep Melo....

Ball/Melo/KP/Willy is the foundation of a great offense...I just wonder if our defense will ever be able to catch up with Melo and Willy playing big minutes. Also, if Ball isn't as good as he is billed to be right away, then having Melo taking lots of touches from him could also hurt.

I'm praying for a tank job to end all tank jobs and to see the Knicks get Ball and trade Melo, Lee, and Lance. That way we go into the 18' season with Ball and KP having free reign over the court.

However....having a lineup of

Ball
Lee
Lance
Melo
KP

would be pretty fun to watch.

Though I think the limitations of our personnel have been very glaring so far this season

Melo isn't a great small forward anymore, so he is best served offensively and defensively as a power forward...

KP is fine offensively at either position but clearly isn't big enough to hold up as a C full time and not quick enough to chase PF's around the wing.

C lee is getting up there in age and is fine defensively, but struggles during switches...

Rose is....Rose....

ETC

we offer very little in the way of versatility and offensive pieces are at odds with each other. Maximizing KP's strengths means finding a C that can guard the post AND switch out on to forwards on the perimeter a la Dray or Thompson, but those are tough to find.

Maximizing Melo's strengths means putting him at the 4 and putting a rim protector behind him to make up for his perimeter deficiencies a la Tyson on the Mavs with Dirk. Again hard to find.

Both of those situations are at odds with each other, and the latter takes away from KP's development.

Of course, that could all be helped immensely by stopping the ball at the point of attack, since both KP and MElo have proven to be solid help defenders, and even Melo has done well from what I've seen defending even good offensive players in isolation. It's when the ball is moving and shooters are taking us off the dribble on the perimeter that we have a serious issue, and, since this is 2017 in the NBA, that's the norm.

In fact, there's only one team I can think of that is actually not playing ball that way. You know, playing heavy in isolation, slowing the ball down, posting up a lot, taking long two's in iso against set defenses and what not....

hmhmhmhm which team is that...you know, the one that isn't shooting a lot of 3's, getting a lot of assists, or getting to the line much at all.....hmhmhmhmhmhm

What is the name of this team....it starts with a silent K. I think it's Dutch in origin. That Kn sound like Knight, Knackers, Knack, Knudt, and Knife. Something like that.


Ugh, what is the name of that team that is playing like it's 2003 and sporting one of the worst defenses and barely average offenses despite heavy offensive talent.

UGH

HELP ME!!!!!

KN...KNI?....KNI...C?

Is it the Knicks?!?!?!


Oh oh oh I know this answer.
Who are the Brooklyn Nets?


Let's go to the judges

*looks over at judges, one of whom being Phil Jackson with his middle finger extended toward me*

BOOP BOOP

Nope, sorry. We can't accept that answer.



Ok ok ok.

Let me go again.

Who are the Chicago Bulls?
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#107 » by Greenie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:46 pm

spree8 wrote:
Greenie wrote:
spree8 wrote:We are supposed to say what we think will happen or should happen if we draft Lonzo.

In this scenario, come FA, DRose's agent wouldn't even have his phone calls returned by Phil.

I could see Phil still bringing him back.



I don't think Dolan would even allow that. Pay a bad pg near max money when you just drafted the best pg in the draft? I don't even think Isiah would be that dumb.



Dolan has nothing to do with this, remember?
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#108 » by Oscirus » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:47 pm

To be fair Lebron was getting alot of hate pre decision. "He's not man enough to want to take the big shot." overrated, etc. If Lebron who was taking **** teams to the finals back then could net unwarranted hate, then who the hell is Melo?
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#109 » by KnicksGod » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:54 pm

Capn'O wrote:
SmoothLefty21 wrote:
Bill Pidto wrote:
For some people in this thread, Ball is like the missing piece for Melo. The delusions never end.

Get Melo the F outta here. I don't care if the Knicks end up with a Michael Jordan/LeBron James hybrid.


I wish we traded Melo years ago. I wish we never re-signed him. Too many people on this board act like Melo doesn't have a NTC. If he doesn't want to be traded during the dumpster fire we've had the last three seasons then why in the world would he want to be traded when you add someone like Ball to the equation?


There's a chance he wants to go but wanted to do it during the offseason for planning/family reasons. There's also a chance he won't waive irregardless. Hard to tell from the outside but I suspect the Melodrama will fire up again and we'll find out either way.


The reason he still goes: Because the Knicks make leadership decisions, which by definition require difficult choices, and make it clear to Melo that he wouldn't be part of the Ball-KP-Herny future that the Knicks intend to start working on right away.

That means less playing time and restrictions on his game if he decides to stay. It should really mean the bench.

People still talking as if Melo runs the show. He doesn't. He shouldn't. He gets to earn a contract and he's a player who gets to go in games when the coach decides he should. The coach answers to the president.

Really nothing complicated about this.

If the Knicks decide their future does not include Melo and they want to get started on that future sooner rather than later, which seems like the wise choice, then Melo shouldn't be getting much or any playing time or much or any role on the team.

You can look at it as punishment or whatever. It is called leadership. You make decisions. Melo is not paid ot make decisions like these.

He can make the decision not to be traded -- that's his contractual right. It is not his contractual right to play basketball for the Knicks in any way or at any time he decides suits him.

Man oh man.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#110 » by Boss_ » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:56 pm

Anyone think of this from reading subject or just me?

BALL

Clyde_Style wrote:When the Knicks lose my colon goes spastic and I poop a stream of little basketballs.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#111 » by spree8 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:07 pm

Greenie wrote:
spree8 wrote:
Greenie wrote:I could see Phil still bringing him back.



I don't think Dolan would even allow that. Pay a bad pg near max money when you just drafted the best pg in the draft? I don't even think Isiah would be that dumb.



Dolan has nothing to do with this, remember?



Not when you're going to spend like 30 mil per year for no reason!
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#112 » by Jeff Van Gully » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:25 pm

Bill Pidto wrote:
ibraheim718 wrote:I think in that situation Phil wouldn't trade Melo and Melo wouldn't request a trade. I think he'd be fine staying in NY to play with Ball rather than ring chasing.


That would suck


it's very likely. can't trade melo until he wants to go.

how badly does it really suck tho? he's gone in 2 seasons if you really don't want him back. he can stay, but still has to fall in line with the coaching/management plan. you can work around him if he doesn't want to help. but all signs show that melo would be totally fine with helping young players get to their primes. he knows his own mortality.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#113 » by Billy Goat » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:05 pm

Greenie wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
Agreed. But they need to get some serious value back and not just basically dump him.


Melo's on a max deal with a NTC. You're not getting value back there. He's a total sunk cost with total control on where he goes. The Knicks are staring at a buyout situation if he's not willing to budge on destinations or leaving at all.

Melo is not on a max deal.


He's due 53 mill over the next two years. It's as close as to the max you're going to get.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#114 » by poeman » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:10 pm

We get Ball, expect to see Spike Lee and LaVarr Ball together every game.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#115 » by Greenie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:19 pm

Oscirus wrote:To be fair Lebron was getting alot of hate pre decision. "He's not man enough to want to take the big shot." overrated, etc. If Lebron who was taking **** teams to the finals back then could net unwarranted hate, then who the hell is Melo?

Did Cav fans hate LeBron? Nah, just fans of other teams. Melo is our ****. Nobody else's. Just like KP is our ****. You're supposed to ride for your best players. You don't ride for bums. Cav fans road for LeBron until the day he left. We really hate Melo like he's a bum on another team,
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#116 » by ctorres » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:34 pm

Any reason that Ball and Melo wouldn't be able to co-exist?

If all of Melo's teammates like him both OFF and ON the court, then is there a reason to believe that none of the upcoming rookies wouldn't as well?

Unless there is a conspiracy that every player fears Melo and is afraid to share their "true" feelings about him to anyone.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#117 » by Dr. Detfink » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:41 pm

The Cleveland Cavaliers had ZERO NBA championships or even professional titles after 1950. Of course the Cleveland Cavs fans love Lebron. He made Kevin Love, a guy who most Knick fans didn't want, JR Smith, Shump and cast offs work. Keep in mind, Cavs had the #1 lottery pick THREE times (James, Wiggins, Bennett). I mean, the Cavs had every chance.

With the Knicks it's different. The Knicks are atrocious. They are once again, saddled with bad contracts. You cannot win in today's NBA with 2 guys around $20M per and a third at $17M per season. When you're stuck with BAD contracts, this is why the fans are turning on the players because the Knicks can't improve themselvs unless they get younger, more talented, and CHEAPER.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#118 » by KnicksGod » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:06 pm

Dr. Detfink wrote:The Cleveland Cavaliers had ZERO NBA championships or even professional titles after 1950. Of course the Cleveland Cavs fans love Lebron. He made Kevin Love, a guy who most Knick fans didn't want, JR Smith, Shump and cast offs work. Keep in mind, Cavs had the #1 lottery pick THREE times (James, Wiggins, Bennett). I mean, the Cavs had every chance.

With the Knicks it's different. The Knicks are atrocious. They are once again, saddled with bad contracts. You cannot win in today's NBA with 2 guys around $20M per and a third at $17M per season. When you're stuck with BAD contracts, this is why the fans are turning on the players because the Knicks can't improve themselvs unless they get younger, more talented, and CHEAPER.


Your view of the bad contracts is extreme and I think incorrect. Noah is the only one that's bad and unmovable without significant assets, and the Knicks also have good contracts on the books as well. Two bad offsetting two good equals 4 average. That's the beauty of numbers.

You have to count rookie contracts as good contracts. So KP and Billy, O'Quinn, another lottery pick contract coming. Lance's is not that bad. Melo's is close to expiring or gone altogether.

Even Noah's will expire by the time KP is 24. It's not close to crippling but that's what you're saying.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#119 » by spree8 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:22 pm

ctorres wrote:Any reason that Ball and Melo wouldn't be able to co-exist?

If all of Melo's teammates like him both OFF and ON the court, then is there a reason to believe that none of the upcoming rookies wouldn't as well?

Unless there is a conspiracy that every player fears Melo and is afraid to share their "true" feelings about him to anyone.



I think Melo would actually do well with Ball just like he did with JKidd.

However, I personally would like to trade him in order to #1. Make KP the 1st option on offense & #2. Get younger players/picks to grow with Ball/KP for the next 10 years. Plus I'd like to see Melo on a team that has a chance to really contend.
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Re: Hypothetical: Knicks get Ball 

Post#120 » by NYKnickerbocker » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:28 pm

i dont even care, just get some A1 talent on the team, and that will take care of everything

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