Knicks-Jazz PG Thread

[Kinglee]

If you just arrived from another planet and someone handed you a pamphlet and checklist on a 21 year old you could acquire in your new job as GM of the Knicks, and the checklist said:

- 21 years of age
- 7'3"
- Shoots it above average from 3
- Elite rim protector already
- Willing team defender, needs work here
- Shows that he can take it off the dribble, needs work here
- Needs work on his passing and team offensive skills but clearly teachable/willing
- Plays with 2 of the more aging, dribble- and iso-happy scorers in the NBA, who will probably both be gone soon
- Needs to get stronger, needs to get into better shape, but reminder: Only 21

You MIGHT be happy to get that guy. There's literally maybe 1 or 2 or 3 other big men on this planet Earth who are ahead of him at the moment. Don't be ridiculous. Maybe you come from a planet where all these things are common. Here on Earth, they're rare. Like 1 of a small handful rare.

How do you say "willing team defender, needs work here" so how does that show he's a willing team defender. You're just grabbing stuff in the air. Nothing about KP defense screams anything besides the fact he can block shots at the rim.

"Shows he can take can it off the dribble". Him going to the basket once or twice every other 5 games doesn't mean anything to me. He's 7'3, I'm not expecting him to do it, but let's not pretend he don't fall and stumble on majority of his attempts at dribbling the ball. Demarcus Cousins, Towns, and AD are examples of taking someone off the dribble as bigs. KP, not so much.

And you're stating this "clearly teachable/willing" thing in regards to his passing, this is based on what? These guys been playing for 10+ years and he came from overseas where they emphasize team ball. If he's not a good passer now he most likely won't ever be. KP doesn't even attempt to be a playmaker for others, so I don't even see why this was pointed out.

Our scouting reports on this guy is COMPLETELY different. I don't see what you see.

[ChaosHamster]

He leads the league in contested shots. And I'am sure those all aren't his mans shots.

So you can say he is willing to help his teammates defend their guy.

[KnicksGod]

If you just arrived from another planet and someone handed you a pamphlet and checklist on a 21 year old you could acquire in your new job as GM of the Knicks, and the checklist said:

- 21 years of age
- 7'3"
- Shoots it above average from 3
- Elite rim protector already
- Willing team defender, needs work here
- Shows that he can take it off the dribble, needs work here
- Needs work on his passing and team offensive skills but clearly teachable/willing
- Plays with 2 of the more aging, dribble- and iso-happy scorers in the NBA, who will probably both be gone soon
- Needs to get stronger, needs to get into better shape, but reminder: Only 21

You MIGHT be happy to get that guy. There's literally maybe 1 or 2 or 3 other big men on this planet Earth who are ahead of him at the moment. Don't be ridiculous. Maybe you come from a planet where all these things are common. Here on Earth, they're rare. Like 1 of a small handful rare.

How do you say "willing team defender, needs work here" so how does that show he's a willing team defender. You're just grabbing stuff in the air. Nothing about KP defense screams anything besides the fact he can block shots at the rim.

"Shows he can take can it off the dribble". Him going to the basket once or twice every other 5 games doesn't mean anything to me. He's 7'3, I'm not expecting him to do it, but let's not pretend he don't fall and stumble on majority of his attempts at dribbling the ball. Demarcus Cousins, Towns, and AD are examples of taking someone off the dribble as bigs. KP, not so much.

And you're stating this "clearly teachable/willing" thing in regards to his passing, this is based on what? These guys been playing for 10+ years and he came from overseas where they emphasize team ball. If he's not a good passer now he most likely won't ever be. KP doesn't even attempt to be a playmaker for others, so I don't even see why this was pointed out.

Our scouting reports on this guy is COMPLETELY different. I don't see what you see.

Okay.

[Kinglee]

What are the chances Kinglee is indeed Courtney Lee..

How he stares into everyone after they (or most of the time, he himself ), make mistakes. I generally think he hates everybody on the team.

Our team sucks, it's good reason to hate everyone on the team, but I don't. Players that I actually like on this team though goes as follow

1. Carmelo
2. Willy
3. Holiday
4. KP
5. O'Quinn
6. Lee

Those the only players on this team I really care for. And all 6 of these players can be replaced tbh. I don't think we have any "gotta keep him at all cost" players. But those are players I feel play quality basketball and I've been a Carmelo fan since Syracuse so that's never going to change. Baker is a decent heady player, but it's a lot of players I'd pick over him. Randle hasn't played enough, Kuz is worst than Jared Jeffies, KP is a solid player but not really a fan of his game for the role we want him to play, though I'd take him on my team 100% of the time as a key contributor instead of the main contributor.

[Oscirus]

Don't kill me, I like KP being featured more and getting more shots and he needs this for development, but I look at ALL players stats in these late, "don't really matter too much" games where some stat padding goes on, with a bit of skepticism. I think KP probably played well, but again there is some late season padding for younger players and I sort of hold judgement if this is/was progress until next year.

I'll take him getting reps and opportunity in real games though.

I don't know, if you look at the shots these last few games, it seems like there's a shift. Since KP spoke out that first time, there's been more deferring to KP from both Rose and Anthony. This time, I don't think it's some random going off late or a rookie getting overrated. It legit feels like a change is happening.

[thebuzzardman]

Don't kill me, I like KP being featured more and getting more shots and he needs this for development, but I look at ALL players stats in these late, "don't really matter too much" games where some stat padding goes on, with a bit of skepticism. I think KP probably played well, but again there is some late season padding for younger players and I sort of hold judgement if this is/was progress until next year.

I'll take him getting reps and opportunity in real games though.

I don't know if you look t the shots these last few games, it seems like there's a shift. Since KP spoke out that first time, there's been more deferring to KP from both Rose and Anthony. This time, I don't think it's some random going off late or a rookie getting overrated. It legit feels like a change is happening.

That would be good. I haven't watched the last few games but in highlights.

[Greenie]

Just a question and not a knock at all.
Why/or How do we know what KP is willing to do?

[thebuzzardman]

Don't kill me, I like KP being featured more and getting more shots and he needs this for development, but I look at ALL players stats in these late, "don't really matter too much" games where some stat padding goes on, with a bit of skepticism. I think KP probably played well, but again there is some late season padding for younger players and I sort of hold judgement if this is/was progress until next year.

I'll take him getting reps and opportunity in real games though.

Yes and no - there are certain things I took away from a game this late in the season. One is that he was looking to challenge Gobert off the dribble and at the rim. There's nothing "late season" about that. Gobert was playing some incredible ball and was taking away the middle for everyone on the Knicks so I think you can be legit excited to see that. The minus side of that is that he took himself out of the game by picking up fouls trying to stop Gobert inside on D. Gobert is one of the few guys in the league that KP won't have a length advantage against so the strength differential really showed. The Knicks were pretty useless when KP was in foul trouble because at least when he was in Rudy would have to step out of the lane.

I noticed that on the highlights. That is a good thing to see in general and particularly a player of Gobert's defensive ability.

[HEZI]

KP needs to dedicate this summer to working on the art of rebounding and playing physical in the paint. As well adding strength he also needs to start getting used to the physicality and contact inside the paint. If he is going to be our Center of the future then he needs to be able to grab rebounds and play physical in the paint. I can't watch him get tossed around and shoved to the ground anymore, it's embarrassing.

[Greenie]

What are the chances Kinglee is indeed Courtney Lee..

How he stares into everyone after they (or most of the time, he himself ), make mistakes. I generally think he hates everybody on the team.

Our team sucks, it's good reason to hate everyone on the team, but I don't. Players that I actually like on this team though goes as follow

1. Carmelo
2. Willy
3. Holiday
4. KP
5. O'Quinn
6. Lee

Those the only players on this team I really care for. And all 6 of these players can be replaced tbh. I don't think we have any "gotta keep him at all cost" players. But those are players I feel play quality basketball and I've been a Carmelo fan since Syracuse so that's never going to change. Baker is a decent heady player, but it's a lot of players I'd pick over him. Randle hasn't played enough, Kuz is worst than Jared Jeffies, KP is a solid player but not really a fan of his game for the role we want him to play, though I'd take him on my team 100% of the time as a key contributor instead of the main contributor.

Holiday over KP?
Kyle over Lee?

I go as follows:
Melo
Willy
KP
Lee
Baker

In that order and everyone else could really GTFO

[Kinglee]

What are the chances Kinglee is indeed Courtney Lee..

How he stares into everyone after they (or most of the time, he himself ), make mistakes. I generally think he hates everybody on the team.

Our team sucks, it's good reason to hate everyone on the team, but I don't. Players that I actually like on this team though goes as follow

1. Carmelo
2. Willy
3. Holiday
4. KP
5. O'Quinn
6. Lee

Those the only players on this team I really care for. And all 6 of these players can be replaced tbh. I don't think we have any "gotta keep him at all cost" players. But those are players I feel play quality basketball and I've been a Carmelo fan since Syracuse so that's never going to change. Baker is a decent heady player, but it's a lot of players I'd pick over him. Randle hasn't played enough, Kuz is worst than Jared Jeffies, KP is a solid player but not really a fan of his game for the role we want him to play, though I'd take him on my team 100% of the time as a key contributor instead of the main contributor.

Holiday over KP?
Kyle over Lee?

I go as follows:
Melo
Willy
KP
Lee
Baker

In that order and everyone else could really GTFO

It was no order outside of Carmelo. I don't think Holiday is a better building block than KP

[Greenie]

KP needs to dedicate this summer to working on the art of rebounding and playing physical in the paint. As well adding strength he also needs to start getting used to the physicality and contact inside the paint. If he is going to be our Center of the future then he needs to be able to grab rebounds and play physical in the paint. I can't watch him get tossed around and shoved to the ground anymore, it's embarrassing.

I highly doubt he will ever be that physical dude in the paint. It was a major point of emphasis in his scouting report.
That's cool though too. He just has to become more consistent/dominate on what he's already good at.

[Greenie]

Our team sucks, it's good reason to hate everyone on the team, but I don't. Players that I actually like on this team though goes as follow

1. Carmelo
2. Willy
3. Holiday
4. KP
5. O'Quinn
6. Lee

Those the only players on this team I really care for. And all 6 of these players can be replaced tbh. I don't think we have any "gotta keep him at all cost" players. But those are players I feel play quality basketball and I've been a Carmelo fan since Syracuse so that's never going to change. Baker is a decent heady player, but it's a lot of players I'd pick over him. Randle hasn't played enough, Kuz is worst than Jared Jeffies, KP is a solid player but not really a fan of his game for the role we want him to play, though I'd take him on my team 100% of the time as a key contributor instead of the main contributor.

Holiday over KP?
Kyle over Lee?

I go as follows:
Melo
Willy
KP
Lee
Baker

In that order and everyone else could really GTFO

It was no order outside of Carmelo. I don't think Holiday is a better building block than KP

Oh. Ok. I was scared for a minute. People think we are the same person
If they are going to think that I had to clear that up.

[Hemispheres]

He leads the league in contested shots. And I'am sure those all aren't his mans shots.

So you can say he is willing to help his teammates defend their guy.

People will ignore this but it's actually a good stat.

[DOT]

KP needs to dedicate this summer to working on the art of rebounding and playing physical in the paint. As well adding strength he also needs to start getting used to the physicality and contact inside the paint. If he is going to be our Center of the future then he needs to be able to grab rebounds and play physical in the paint. I can't watch him get tossed around and shoved to the ground anymore, it's embarrassing.

I highly doubt he will ever be that physical dude in the paint. It was a major point of emphasis in his scouting report.
That's cool though too. He just has to become more consistent/dominate on what he's already good at.

Gobert's lack of strength does affect him here too, though, as he gets moved around rather easily inside the paint, not always being able to hold his ground. He lacks some intensity and toughness on this end of the floor, sometimes allowing himself to get pushed around inside and not offering enough resistance. His high center of gravity and average balance makes it difficult for him to bend his knees and stay in front of opposing slashers attacking him off the dribble.
Just an average rebounder on the defensive end, Gobert shows solid timing boxing out his man, but tends to get pushed around and lets smaller opponents wrestle rebounds away from him. His 5.7 defensive rebounds per-40 is a fairly pedestrian rate and something he'll have to improve on to see minutes in the NBA - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Rudy-Gobert-5878/ ©DraftExpress

From Gobert's scouting report on DraftExpress
I'm not overly concerned about KP's strength and physicality, but it is evident he'll need to work on that part over the next couple years

Also, would like to point out that at the time this was written, Gobert was 21, the same age KP is right now

[thebuzzardman]

But KnicksGod I already stated how I feel about KP. I don't think he'll be a superstar in this league. He can be a good player, he's a good player now, but I don't see star in him. Not today nor his future, I'm clearly not high on him, I stated this 1000 times. Yes, I want him to be a superstar. I want every player on this team to be a superstar, but I just don't see it in him. I get nowhere rooting for my favorite team to lose. I get a "oh you were right" on a message board, that's about it. I'm not seeking that. I wanna goto a championship Knicks parade, I can't do that if we're losing. I want to goto another playoff game of the Knicks, I can't do that if we're losing. What exactly is the point of me wanting KP to fail? Like I said, I want him to be great, I don't see it in him. Because some people are high on him and others aren't doesn't mean we are out rooting for the guy to fail. Its reality. It's few players in the league that everyone can sit there and say "this guy is going to be great", KP doesn't fit that for me. No big deal, why are y'all treating it as such I don't understand.

I'll assume you are old enough to remember Ewing playing.

How well did he drive and create his own shot in years 1,2, and 3?

I don't recall him having his one dribble/create shot down until year 3 or maybe 4, the drive into and across the lane thing he learned from Bill Cartwright.

KP is a big who can shoot. He's C\PF (maybe) not a PF\SF or SF\PF who is going to have these shot creating skills. Before you compare him to AD, Embiid or Towns, those guys are pretty freaky players historically and there is a reason they all were drafted #1 (ok, #3 for Embiid)

Ewing had no problem getting his shot off since his rookie year. You randomly reached for something that wasn't there. You're flat out off on that so I don't even understand why you did what you just did.

And I have no intentions to compare KP to any of those guys, he's not going to be as good as any of those players in my opinion (depending on Embeid is healthy or not). I see a lot of young players who I feel are better or will be better than KP going forward. I've never sugar coated this and stated this numerous times. I've watched KP play, I don't need anyone writing me to convince me the guy is going to be something when I'm watching him play with my own eyes. If he becomes great, he'll be great. If not, he won't. Simple. I'll observe every bit of it as a Knicks fan.

Sure Ewing got his shot off a 1st year player. A baseline jumper and that was about it. He didn't even start backing guys down in a significant way until his 2nd or 3rd year. In fact, the fact that Ewing WAS making jumpers and getting his shot was a BIG deal as he was thought of more like a Mutumbo coming out of college. (a little better offensively but not a lot). Really my point about Ewing is he wasn't the player he would become and it took him about 4 years to add pieces to his game. Yes he got "his shot off" but we could say KP gets his 3 point shot off and other things need work. Listen, I think Ewing was the better player out of the gate but he had a year on KP and I think that means something, regardless of KP playing in a professional league. I'd say back then, the NCAA was on a par or better than the Spanish pro league now, based on nearly everyone playing 4 years. We can agree to disagree, but I see KP block shots but I see enough guys every game decide not to drive it because he's there. And yes, he also gets beat and stuffed on etc like every other C, great, good, average and terrible. Clearly Towns and AD are better players, more advanced now and from the start (though even AD had to grow into his game). Again, they both got picked #1, so what is your disappointment? Embiid looks good IF he can stay healthy. Maybe you are disappointed that KP isn't the best young big in the league, that others have came along, but you're almost in the territory of making him sound like a stiff without room for development. I think he's got some skills and agility he can build on and that he will. The fact that he's a decent defender as a young guy (bigs tend to need some time here) and a good shooter with some other good basketball fundamentals I think speaks well to him developing. Note when I saw SOME fundamentals, I don't mean all of them. If you remember any of my posts from this season, many times I've said his post game needs work in a significant way, to the point of wondering if it'll ever get there, but I think based on some of his moves (turnarounds, bank shots, hooks) I can see it happening. I've also stated I don't see him very adept in the P&R based on a sort of lack of court sense there (opposite of WHG) and isn't the best passer either, based on the same (though he can execute ok when asked I think).

Basically you've staked out you don't think KP is anything special and no one is going to convince you otherwise. Enjoy.

[Oscirus]

Just a question and not a knock at all.
Why/or How do we know what KP is willing to do?

You can see it in his interviews and in the things he tries to do ( even if he can't quite do them yet). This kid really wants it.

[ChaosHamster]

Just a question and not a knock at all.
Why/or How do we know what KP is willing to do?

You can see it in his interviews and in the things he tries to do ( even if he can't quite do them yet). This kid really wants it.

"You can see it" argument is only legit when Greenie is using it.

[Hemispheres]

This is the stuff I don't get. Towns is averaging a block a game and KP is averaging 2 a game. Cool. Neither are great defenders, but what makes KP defensive ceiling higher? KP is a slightly better shooter, I agree. Towns is in a whole 'nother class when it comes to offensive game though and he's a rebounding monster. The guy is averaging 25/12/3, this is why it seems like people are hard on KP because people want to sit here and compare him to players he shouldn't be compared to. Carmelo is a good player and when you compare him to Lebron it's ridiculous. KP is a good player, but even mentioning him with Towns and AD it's just ridiculous.

Only Gobert and I think one other player, have a lower opponent FG% in the paint.

KP is an elite rim protector, I've stated that 1000 times. What's your point?

What's your point? If he's an elite rim protector that speaks volumes about him as a defender. You're contradicting yourself. Rim protection isn't just blocking shots. It's shutting down the paint. The stat yankeeknicksfan references shows that is exactly what he does. It's the most important defensive quality for a big man, followed by pick and roll defense.

[thebuzzardman]

Just a question and not a knock at all.
Why/or How do we know what KP is willing to do?

I really don't know, but all the specials, interviews etc seemed to indicated he had a pretty strong work ethic and was surrounded by the sort of support system that encouraged that vs other less helpful nonsense. Not like he's the only guy like that, but it seemed like a pretty good sign. How he uses that and where he applies it? Who knows. There have been enough stuff run about he and his brother being pretty strong critics on himself/him and they work on fixing stuff. There is still ability though and how far it can go. For example, I think WHG has less time playing basketball, but for whatever reason (nature vs nurture, have at it) he's just much more adept in understanding spacing, cutting and passing, while KP is a superior shooter. I can't see KP ever playing the P&R like WHG and I can never see WHG shooting as well as KP. I can see KP developing enough of a post game and WHG enough of an outside shot though.