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Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss!

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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#681 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:37 pm

Synciere wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:If the basketball gods have spoken, they have said "We like tank" because that's exactly what Minny was doing losing twice to the Lakers. And they got rewarded for their effort.


Minnesota is exactly why the tank doesn't work. They have Towns, a player who's tank-worthy, Wiggins, another #1 pick, Lavine and Muhammad, two lottery picks, Rubio, a former #5 pick, Dieng, who was a #19 pick...... And for all of that, people believe tanks works and should be rewarded.

SMH


Who said the success of tanking happens in less than a few years?

The NBA system is broken. Stars don't want to leave their teams (by design) and when they do, they only want to go to teams that are already very good. So the options are to overpay a player not totally worth the complete Max (like Melo, for instance) or build through the draft. And the only way to build through the draft is tanking.

Heinke was a visionary. Just watch as the Knicks will be looking up at the 76'ers for the next 8 years.
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#682 » by Synciere » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:23 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Synciere wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:If the basketball gods have spoken, they have said "We like tank" because that's exactly what Minny was doing losing twice to the Lakers. And they got rewarded for their effort.


Minnesota is exactly why the tank doesn't work. They have Towns, a player who's tank-worthy, Wiggins, another #1 pick, Lavine and Muhammad, two lottery picks, Rubio, a former #5 pick, Dieng, who was a #19 pick...... And for all of that, people believe tanks works and should be rewarded.

SMH


Who said the success of tanking happens in less than a few years?

The NBA system is broken. Stars don't want to leave their teams (by design) and when they do, they only want to go to teams that are already very good. So the options are to overpay a player not totally worth the complete Max (like Melo, for instance) or build through the draft. And the only way to build through the draft is tanking.

Heinke was a visionary. Just watch as the Knicks will be looking up at the 76'ers for the next 8 years.


Hinkie was an idiot.

The success of tanking is an oxymoron. I've said this before and I'll say it again: there is not a single team that has ever tanked to a championship. Some say the Spurs did for Duncan, but they didn't. They had a 60 win team and lost a Hall of Famer (Robinson) and All Star (Elliot) to injuries. The Spurs tanking would be like the Warriors tanking next year. Some say the Cavs did for Lebron, but he left before winning a championship. Some say Houston in the 80s for Olajuwon, but that hasn't been proven with any documentation. Even if you include that Houston team, that's 1 out of how many? Multiple teams per year over a 40 year period...

SMH...

The Sixers have now tanked going on a fourth year. Such a visionary! Tanking doesn't work... Never has... The teams that tank, usually tank over the course of several years, and they always suck. LOL
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#683 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:59 pm

Synciere wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Synciere wrote:
Minnesota is exactly why the tank doesn't work. They have Towns, a player who's tank-worthy, Wiggins, another #1 pick, Lavine and Muhammad, two lottery picks, Rubio, a former #5 pick, Dieng, who was a #19 pick...... And for all of that, people believe tanks works and should be rewarded.

SMH


Who said the success of tanking happens in less than a few years?

The NBA system is broken. Stars don't want to leave their teams (by design) and when they do, they only want to go to teams that are already very good. So the options are to overpay a player not totally worth the complete Max (like Melo, for instance) or build through the draft. And the only way to build through the draft is tanking.

Heinke was a visionary. Just watch as the Knicks will be looking up at the 76'ers for the next 8 years.


Hinkie was an idiot.

The success of tanking is an oxymoron. I've said this before and I'll say it again: there is not a single team that has ever tanked to a championship. Some say the Spurs did for Duncan, but they didn't. They had a 60 win team and lost a Hall of Famer (Robinson) and All Star (Elliot) to injuries. The Spurs tanking would be like the Warriors tanking next year. Some say the Cavs did for Lebron, but he left before winning a championship. Some say Houston in the 80s for Olajuwon, but that hasn't been proven with any documentation. Even if you include that Houston team, that's 1 out of how many? Multiple teams per year over a 40 year period...

SMH...

The Sixers have now tanked going on a fourth year. Such a visionary! Tanking doesn't work... Never has... The teams that tank, usually tank over the course of several years, and they always suck. LOL


The 76'ers this year will get the guards that will go with their forwards (Embiid, Saric, Simmons). They'll have a nice base. Meanwhile how long does it take an NBA team to retool anyway, without any guarantee at success? Seems about 5 years. Or, in the Knicks case, 16.
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#684 » by Synciere » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:14 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Synciere wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Who said the success of tanking happens in less than a few years?

The NBA system is broken. Stars don't want to leave their teams (by design) and when they do, they only want to go to teams that are already very good. So the options are to overpay a player not totally worth the complete Max (like Melo, for instance) or build through the draft. And the only way to build through the draft is tanking.

Heinke was a visionary. Just watch as the Knicks will be looking up at the 76'ers for the next 8 years.


Hinkie was an idiot.

The success of tanking is an oxymoron. I've said this before and I'll say it again: there is not a single team that has ever tanked to a championship. Some say the Spurs did for Duncan, but they didn't. They had a 60 win team and lost a Hall of Famer (Robinson) and All Star (Elliot) to injuries. The Spurs tanking would be like the Warriors tanking next year. Some say the Cavs did for Lebron, but he left before winning a championship. Some say Houston in the 80s for Olajuwon, but that hasn't been proven with any documentation. Even if you include that Houston team, that's 1 out of how many? Multiple teams per year over a 40 year period...

SMH...

The Sixers have now tanked going on a fourth year. Such a visionary! Tanking doesn't work... Never has... The teams that tank, usually tank over the course of several years, and they always suck. LOL


The 76'ers this year will get the guards that will go with their forwards (Embiid, Saric, Simmons). They'll have a nice base. Meanwhile how long does it take an NBA team to retool anyway, without any guarantee at success? Seems about 5 years. Or, in the Knicks case, 16.


Actually this would be Year 5 right? They drafted Noel from the Jrue Holiday trade, then drafted Embiid, then Okafor, then Simmons, and now this year.... But because they're going to get guards this year, the tank worked!
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#685 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:17 pm

Synciere wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Synciere wrote:
Hinkie was an idiot.

The success of tanking is an oxymoron. I've said this before and I'll say it again: there is not a single team that has ever tanked to a championship. Some say the Spurs did for Duncan, but they didn't. They had a 60 win team and lost a Hall of Famer (Robinson) and All Star (Elliot) to injuries. The Spurs tanking would be like the Warriors tanking next year. Some say the Cavs did for Lebron, but he left before winning a championship. Some say Houston in the 80s for Olajuwon, but that hasn't been proven with any documentation. Even if you include that Houston team, that's 1 out of how many? Multiple teams per year over a 40 year period...

SMH...

The Sixers have now tanked going on a fourth year. Such a visionary! Tanking doesn't work... Never has... The teams that tank, usually tank over the course of several years, and they always suck. LOL


The 76'ers this year will get the guards that will go with their forwards (Embiid, Saric, Simmons). They'll have a nice base. Meanwhile how long does it take an NBA team to retool anyway, without any guarantee at success? Seems about 5 years. Or, in the Knicks case, 16.


Actually this would be Year 5 right? They drafted Noel from the Jrue Holiday trade, then drafted Embiid, then Okafor, then Simmons, and now this year.... But because they're going to get guards this year, the tank worked!


I'm just pointing out that in the NBA, when most teams need to rebuild, it seems to take about 5 years no matter what. But yeah, the NBA has a great system. A system where the same handful of teams win the championships, it's hard for middle of the road teams to rebuild and generally having to suck for a while is the only path to rebuilding. I mean, it is sort of the typical bell curve of sports teams, but it seems like the NBA has become more tilted to a handful of really good teams and then a bunch of mediocrity and poor teams making up the rest of the league. Which might be ok if it was like Football where teams turn it around it what seems to be 3 years (except the Jets, who suck forever)
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#686 » by gelek » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:44 am

Problem with tanking is
Synciere wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Synciere wrote:
Minnesota is exactly why the tank doesn't work. They have Towns, a player who's tank-worthy, Wiggins, another #1 pick, Lavine and Muhammad, two lottery picks, Rubio, a former #5 pick, Dieng, who was a #19 pick...... And for all of that, people believe tanks works and should be rewarded.

SMH


Who said the success of tanking happens in less than a few years?

The NBA system is broken. Stars don't want to leave their teams (by design) and when they do, they only want to go to teams that are already very good. So the options are to overpay a player not totally worth the complete Max (like Melo, for instance) or build through the draft. And the only way to build through the draft is tanking.

Heinke was a visionary. Just watch as the Knicks will be looking up at the 76'ers for the next 8 years.


Hinkie was an idiot.

The success of tanking is an oxymoron. I've said this before and I'll say it again: there is not a single team that has ever tanked to a championship. Some say the Spurs did for Duncan, but they didn't. They had a 60 win team and lost a Hall of Famer (Robinson) and All Star (Elliot) to injuries. The Spurs tanking would be like the Warriors tanking next year. Some say the Cavs did for Lebron, but he left before winning a championship. Some say Houston in the 80s for Olajuwon, but that hasn't been proven with any documentation. Even if you include that Houston team, that's 1 out of how many? Multiple teams per year over a 40 year period...

SMH...

The Sixers have now tanked going on a fourth year. Such a visionary! Tanking doesn't work... Never has... The teams that tank, usually tank over the course of several years, and they always suck. LOL


Tanking could work. On the surface it makes sense, get young players develop them and use the fact that you have better options on more young players.

However teams that do tank, usually need to tank because they are bad. Which means they are/were run by bad management. Tanking for lottery picks only marginally improves your chances of getting one. Accumulating assets might make sense, but converting them to a star player is really hard.

And look at it that way, teams that need to tank usually have a track record of wasting and not using assets such as picks and capspace wisely (look at our Knicks post-Ewing). Why then does it seem like a good idea to add more of the wrongly used assets?

But the main thing is, people try to simplify the nba to a binary thing, you are either a contender or you should tank. But it is so much easier to jump to a contender from being a "middle of the road" team than from a tank.

Especially since a lot of teams seem to follow this tank or bust strategy, it would seem intuitive that following a counterplay might be productive (and is in fact what the Celtics were doing, but they bascially have cheatmode on with the KG to brooklyn remnants still having an impact).
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#687 » by thebuzzardman » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:05 am

gelek wrote:Problem with tanking is
Synciere wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Who said the success of tanking happens in less than a few years?

The NBA system is broken. Stars don't want to leave their teams (by design) and when they do, they only want to go to teams that are already very good. So the options are to overpay a player not totally worth the complete Max (like Melo, for instance) or build through the draft. And the only way to build through the draft is tanking.

Heinke was a visionary. Just watch as the Knicks will be looking up at the 76'ers for the next 8 years.


Hinkie was an idiot.

The success of tanking is an oxymoron. I've said this before and I'll say it again: there is not a single team that has ever tanked to a championship. Some say the Spurs did for Duncan, but they didn't. They had a 60 win team and lost a Hall of Famer (Robinson) and All Star (Elliot) to injuries. The Spurs tanking would be like the Warriors tanking next year. Some say the Cavs did for Lebron, but he left before winning a championship. Some say Houston in the 80s for Olajuwon, but that hasn't been proven with any documentation. Even if you include that Houston team, that's 1 out of how many? Multiple teams per year over a 40 year period...

SMH...

The Sixers have now tanked going on a fourth year. Such a visionary! Tanking doesn't work... Never has... The teams that tank, usually tank over the course of several years, and they always suck. LOL


Tanking could work. On the surface it makes sense, get young players develop them and use the fact that you have better options on more young players.

However teams that do tank, usually need to tank because they are bad. Which means they are/were run by bad management. Tanking for lottery picks only marginally improves your chances of getting one. Accumulating assets might make sense, but converting them to a star player is really hard.

And look at it that way, teams that need to tank usually have a track record of wasting and not using assets such as picks and capspace wisely (look at our Knicks post-Ewing). Why then does it seem like a good idea to add more of the wrongly used assets?

But the main thing is, people try to simplify the nba to a binary thing, you are either a contender or you should tank. But it is so much easier to jump to a contender from being a "middle of the road" team than from a tank.

Especially since a lot of teams seem to follow this tank or bust strategy, it would seem intuitive that following a counterplay might be productive (and is in fact what the Celtics were doing, but they bascially have cheatmode on with the KG to brooklyn remnants still having an impact).


The Celtics are one of the few teams in recent memory that does a good job of obtaining assets, though they drop briefly in record (for one year) before this run and two years before they got KG\Allen. So, even with this team, to a small degree, there was the aspect of being bad before good, but this is probably more in line with what the NBA THOUGHT, where teams would be bad for a couple of years, instead of the fact it seems to take about 5 years. It's the length of time to rebuild for 90% of the teams that indicates to me the NBA's system, for competitiveness, is broken. And now that players have a ton of money, even less incentive to leave teams, it only makes obtaining them through the draft (hello tanking) more imperative. That combined with the fact that today, now that stars have so much money, basically aren't changing teams unless the other team they are going to is really good. This further concentrates good teams at the top. I mean, if a good/great player leaves a team, it's probably a poor team to a very good one now (LeBron, Wade, Lebron again, Durant) but the scenario that may be worse is when a very good player leaves a "good" team for a very good one - like Aldridge for the Spurs. So, the Blazers, who were decent, get poorer, while the Spurs, who were already sustaining a long winning run, get richer. Now, maybe not the most fair example as the Spurs are THE model franchise, so who wouldn't want to go, but I think you get the point. This just makes teams that aren't good have more incentive to be really not good. And if that's true, why not embrace it?
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#688 » by Greenie » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:56 am

Synciere wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Synciere wrote:
Minnesota is exactly why the tank doesn't work. They have Towns, a player who's tank-worthy, Wiggins, another #1 pick, Lavine and Muhammad, two lottery picks, Rubio, a former #5 pick, Dieng, who was a #19 pick...... And for all of that, people believe tanks works and should be rewarded.

SMH


Who said the success of tanking happens in less than a few years?

The NBA system is broken. Stars don't want to leave their teams (by design) and when they do, they only want to go to teams that are already very good. So the options are to overpay a player not totally worth the complete Max (like Melo, for instance) or build through the draft. And the only way to build through the draft is tanking.

Heinke was a visionary. Just watch as the Knicks will be looking up at the 76'ers for the next 8 years.


Hinkie was an idiot.

The success of tanking is an oxymoron. I've said this before and I'll say it again: there is not a single team that has ever tanked to a championship. Some say the Spurs did for Duncan, but they didn't. They had a 60 win team and lost a Hall of Famer (Robinson) and All Star (Elliot) to injuries. The Spurs tanking would be like the Warriors tanking next year. Some say the Cavs did for Lebron, but he left before winning a championship. Some say Houston in the 80s for Olajuwon, but that hasn't been proven with any documentation. Even if you include that Houston team, that's 1 out of how many? Multiple teams per year over a 40 year period...

SMH...

The Sixers have now tanked going on a fourth year. Such a visionary! Tanking doesn't work... Never has... The teams that tank, usually tank over the course of several years, and they always suck. LOL



Exactly.
The way to succeed is to have a plan and clear direction and be true to it by building the best team possible within your direction.

You wanna build through the draft with young players? Do that. Hire the best scouts and trainers. Hire a coach that's good at teaching the game. Go all in. From top to bottom.

Jeff is a poor coach for a rebuild because he's a poor teacher.

Phil is the wrong POBO because he likes older players.

The training staff suck because they let **** linger and lack a top flight nutritionist if you ask me. (The conditioning of our team sucks year in and out dating back to D'Antoni, which was weird)
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#689 » by Greenie » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:02 am

thebuzzardman wrote:
Synciere wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:If the basketball gods have spoken, they have said "We like tank" because that's exactly what Minny was doing losing twice to the Lakers. And they got rewarded for their effort.


Minnesota is exactly why the tank doesn't work. They have Towns, a player who's tank-worthy, Wiggins, another #1 pick, Lavine and Muhammad, two lottery picks, Rubio, a former #5 pick, Dieng, who was a #19 pick...... And for all of that, people believe tanks works and should be rewarded.

SMH


Who said the success of tanking happens in less than a few years?

The NBA system is broken. Stars don't want to leave their teams (by design) and when they do, they only want to go to teams that are already very good. So the options are to overpay a player not totally worth the complete Max (like Melo, for instance) or build through the draft. And the only way to build through the draft is tanking.

Heinke was a visionary. Just watch as the Knicks will be looking up at the 76'ers for the next 8 years.

That won't be due to them being good/great. We will simply be bad.

To make tanking worth the nonsense, you need to draft a LeBron.
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#690 » by Phish Tank » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:25 am

Greenie wrote:
Synciere wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Who said the success of tanking happens in less than a few years?

The NBA system is broken. Stars don't want to leave their teams (by design) and when they do, they only want to go to teams that are already very good. So the options are to overpay a player not totally worth the complete Max (like Melo, for instance) or build through the draft. And the only way to build through the draft is tanking.

Heinke was a visionary. Just watch as the Knicks will be looking up at the 76'ers for the next 8 years.


Hinkie was an idiot.

The success of tanking is an oxymoron. I've said this before and I'll say it again: there is not a single team that has ever tanked to a championship. Some say the Spurs did for Duncan, but they didn't. They had a 60 win team and lost a Hall of Famer (Robinson) and All Star (Elliot) to injuries. The Spurs tanking would be like the Warriors tanking next year. Some say the Cavs did for Lebron, but he left before winning a championship. Some say Houston in the 80s for Olajuwon, but that hasn't been proven with any documentation. Even if you include that Houston team, that's 1 out of how many? Multiple teams per year over a 40 year period...

SMH...

The Sixers have now tanked going on a fourth year. Such a visionary! Tanking doesn't work... Never has... The teams that tank, usually tank over the course of several years, and they always suck. LOL



Exactly.
The way to succeed is to have a plan and clear direction and be true to it by building the best team possible within your direction.

You wanna build through the draft with young players? Do that. Hire the best scouts and trainers. Hire a coach that's good at teaching the game. Go all in. From top to bottom.

Jeff is a poor coach for a rebuild because he's a poor teacher.

Phil is the wrong POBO because he likes older players.

The training staff suck because they let **** linger and lack a top flight nutritionist if you ask me. (The conditioning of our team sucks year in and out dating back to D'Antoni, which was weird)


You're right on all but the training staff. The actual staff are legit people in the business. Even the nutritionist. Granted some players are just naturally prone to injury than others.


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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#691 » by thebuzzardman » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:35 am

Greenie wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Synciere wrote:
Minnesota is exactly why the tank doesn't work. They have Towns, a player who's tank-worthy, Wiggins, another #1 pick, Lavine and Muhammad, two lottery picks, Rubio, a former #5 pick, Dieng, who was a #19 pick...... And for all of that, people believe tanks works and should be rewarded.

SMH


Who said the success of tanking happens in less than a few years?

The NBA system is broken. Stars don't want to leave their teams (by design) and when they do, they only want to go to teams that are already very good. So the options are to overpay a player not totally worth the complete Max (like Melo, for instance) or build through the draft. And the only way to build through the draft is tanking.

Heinke was a visionary. Just watch as the Knicks will be looking up at the 76'ers for the next 8 years.

That won't be due to them being good/great. We will simply be bad.

To make tanking worth the nonsense, you need to draft a LeBron.


Hence Heinke kept tanking until he had a shot at one (or two) in Embiid and Simmons. I noticed the Sixers dealt Noel (not Heinke) and will probably deal Okafor (if they can). Now, that means, along with MKW, they had a couple of misses. But what Heinke did was keep taking shots at that top flight player, because for whatever reason, the NBA is heavily tilted towards teams with one dominant player, usually because if he's that good, he'll attract others. It's not the ONLY way to go, but it sure as hell seems encouraged to me, or at least Heinke's conclusion that this is a path to follow really isn't illogical at all.

My opinion is that in spite of influx of international talent and how good players have become, the league is still over expanded and talent diluted. Oh well, giant organizations like the NBA like money, so probably no fixing that. Past that, the NBA's "sort of a cap, but not really" and the CBA's, going back to original, have always encouraged players to stay with the home team (an acknowledgement if ever you saw one that the NBA is about marketing stars over competitive teams) and successive CBA's have made it more likely they stay. Now, of course players move, but in MOST cases, if they are going to leave, and it's for the same money, because the cap rules say they can't get more from another team and might even get less, then when they leave it's "ok or bad team" to very good team. Rich get richer, generally. Which is understandable but not exactly driving competition. Unless by competition 4 varsity teams play an 82 game exhibition schedule for pole position and there are 28 JV teams running around exciting the fans with dunks and highlight clips.

Give me the MLB model (good for the players and fans) or the NFL, NHL model (bad for players, yay fans)
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#692 » by AllanHoustonFan » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:40 am

DievsZingis wrote:
Greenie wrote:
DievsZingis wrote:
I wish when my parents landed at Kennedy 40 years ago they would have said "you know what, **** this place, let's go to Texas". But noooo...skyscrapers.

Loyalty is a bitch, man.

Child abuse is real. Pass it down to your kid. Another Knick fan is born :banghead:


What the **** am I doing.........

Image

Please, don't call CPS...I beg you.

Joking aside, it was cute though, he wouldn't look at the camera because he was actually watching the game. Once he learns how numbers work though, you know, bigger you win/smaller you lose, I don't think he's going to like this team :lol:


Poor, poor kid :nonono:
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#693 » by thebuzzardman » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:44 am

Greenie wrote:
Synciere wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Who said the success of tanking happens in less than a few years?

The NBA system is broken. Stars don't want to leave their teams (by design) and when they do, they only want to go to teams that are already very good. So the options are to overpay a player not totally worth the complete Max (like Melo, for instance) or build through the draft. And the only way to build through the draft is tanking.

Heinke was a visionary. Just watch as the Knicks will be looking up at the 76'ers for the next 8 years.


Hinkie was an idiot.

The success of tanking is an oxymoron. I've said this before and I'll say it again: there is not a single team that has ever tanked to a championship. Some say the Spurs did for Duncan, but they didn't. They had a 60 win team and lost a Hall of Famer (Robinson) and All Star (Elliot) to injuries. The Spurs tanking would be like the Warriors tanking next year. Some say the Cavs did for Lebron, but he left before winning a championship. Some say Houston in the 80s for Olajuwon, but that hasn't been proven with any documentation. Even if you include that Houston team, that's 1 out of how many? Multiple teams per year over a 40 year period...

SMH...

The Sixers have now tanked going on a fourth year. Such a visionary! Tanking doesn't work... Never has... The teams that tank, usually tank over the course of several years, and they always suck. LOL



Exactly.
The way to succeed is to have a plan and clear direction and be true to it by building the best team possible within your direction.

You wanna build through the draft with young players? Do that. Hire the best scouts and trainers. Hire a coach that's good at teaching the game. Go all in. From top to bottom.

Jeff is a poor coach for a rebuild because he's a poor teacher.

Phil is the wrong POBO because he likes older players.

The training staff suck because they let **** linger and lack a top flight nutritionist if you ask me. (The conditioning of our team sucks year in and out dating back to D'Antoni, which was weird)


Those are all true. You need them if you are tanking or not. Tanking is a tactic to improve draft position because the NBA is a watered down league where you need top talent to win and also to attract other players but really can only get a shot at that by being near the top of draft, and yet not every year. It's really one of the stupidest arrangements going, but since everyone is used to it it seems normal. At least in other sports it's offset by cap rules that facilitate turnover and movement (NFL, NHL) of better than "meh" players at a large #, and MLB has more movement of excellent and very good players, and all sort of players. I know, apples and oranges, as they have larger rosters and deeper drafts and for MLB, a vast minor league system. But still.

If there was no ceiling on what a superstar could be paid, you'd see players perhaps less likely to "superteam" (the wave of the next 10 year btw) because there would be real incentive, monetarily, for a player to go to a lesser team. On the other hand, maybe, teams would also hold on to $ and not throw max money at less than max players after the whiff on the one prize. You can say that's on management (Hi Knicks!) but EVERY team throws top $ at guys who are less than deserving, but feel they have to after the strike out on the one or two real prizes. Hence you have a system where Carmelo and LeBron get the same $, but LeBron is clearly the superior player, not even close.

I mean, maybe if the league was contracted by half, there would be such a concentration of good players, that even with this arrangement it there would be highly competitive basketball most of the season and maybe more trades because teams would always have several good players on hand to package for one great guy. Maybe. And then I wouldn't have to witness the likes of Chasson Randle or Plumlee at the end of the bench and these guys could graduate college and get on with being among the nations tallest sales reps or whatever.
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#694 » by Nazrmohamed » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:21 pm

Also I don't think people should use the 76rs as a model for tanking in the same way we're supposed to feel guilty about it. Tanking is always about acquiring assets, that's nothing new but typically when a team has done so it's to actually build a team.

The 76rs have operated beyond building a team. In some cases they've had pieces you could put together and build a team and then scrapped it for even more picks.

In English
2010 grab your C
2011 grab your PF
2012 get your SG.......and so on. That would be closer to how the Timberwolves have rebuilt than the Sixers.

Right now we're talking about how they need a backcourt. At some point during this rebuild they drafted both Michael Cater Williams and Nick Stauskas, only to flip them for more picks and grab players at positions they already had.....like three Cs for instance. Now, they're already trading those C for more picks. It's like, why didn't you just pick a different player with the original pick?

To compare what the Sixers do in Knick terms, they wouldve acquired KP two yrs ago and be on the phone with the Kings right now trying to flip him for thier 2 lotto picks, WHG would be traded for more picks.

So point is, when most teams rebuild they trade off old stars of an era that's fading, perhaps they still got skill but thier prime has past them, Anthony for example and the goal is to get expiring and picks. You trade off the supporting vets as well for the same albeit at a lesser level and you start drafting. The Sixers will trade a player drafted LAST YEAR!!!!! Trade ROOKIE CONTRACT players. That's the difference, and why one shouldn't compare us just being lousy with what the Sixer's are doing.

But who knows how it'll turn out. I hate it, but there's still time for the Sixers to have the last laugh. Cuz what was thier recourse? Think about these teams like the Celtics and Raptors......no chance to win a title. Zero chance. And to me rather than Silver spending his time punishing teams who tank because they got no choice to me this goes back to parity. Or lack thereof. THAT'S whats killing the nba, not tanking. They'll always be a couple teams that tank, always have. But today's league got two playoffs. The 14 teams that'll fail to reach the finals and the 14 teams trying to land the top two picks.

Lack of parity is why teams with no chance tank.
Lack of parity is why the best teams have THE LUXURY of resting players, cuz if seeds 3,4,5 were truly competetive you could never rest players.

Don't pick on the team trying to come up. Stop multiple superstars from jumping into the same 4 teams. Im probably exaggerating at the number 4, that's how crazy is gotten. It's probably just 2.
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#695 » by thebuzzardman » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:09 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:Also I don't think people should use the 76rs as a model for tanking in the same way we're supposed to feel guilty about it. Tanking is always about acquiring assets, that's nothing new but typically when a team has done so it's to actually build a team.

The 76rs have operated beyond building a team. In some cases they've had pieces you could put together and build a team and then scrapped it for even more picks.

In English
2010 grab your C
2011 grab your PF
2012 get your SG.......and so on. That would be closer to how the Timberwolves have rebuilt than the Sixers.

Right now we're talking about how they need a backcourt. At some point during this rebuild they drafted both Michael Cater Williams and Nick Stauskas, only to flip them for more picks and grab players at positions they already had.....like three Cs for instance. Now, they're already trading those C for more picks. It's like, why didn't you just pick a different player with the original pick?

To compare what the Sixers do in Knick terms, they wouldve acquired KP two yrs ago and be on the phone with the Kings right now trying to flip him for thier 2 lotto picks, WHG would be traded for more picks.

So point is, when most teams rebuild they trade off old stars of an era that's fading, perhaps they still got skill but thier prime has past them, Anthony for example and the goal is to get expiring and picks. You trade off the supporting vets as well for the same albeit at a lesser level and you start drafting. The Sixers will trade a player drafted LAST YEAR!!!!! Trade ROOKIE CONTRACT players. That's the difference, and why one shouldn't compare us just being lousy with what the Sixer's are doing.

But who knows how it'll turn out. I hate it, but there's still time for the Sixers to have the last laugh. Cuz what was thier recourse? Think about these teams like the Celtics and Raptors......no chance to win a title. Zero chance. And to me rather than Silver spending his time punishing teams who tank because they got no choice to me this goes back to parity. Or lack thereof. THAT'S whats killing the nba, not tanking. They'll always be a couple teams that tank, always have. But today's league got two playoffs. The 14 teams that'll fail to reach the finals and the 14 teams trying to land the top two picks.

Lack of parity is why teams with no chance tank.
Lack of parity is why the best teams have THE LUXURY of resting players, cuz if seeds 3,4,5 were truly competetive you could never rest players.

Don't pick on the team trying to come up. Stop multiple superstars from jumping into the same 4 teams. Im probably exaggerating at the number 4, that's how crazy is gotten. It's probably just 2.


I sort of agree, but who is it that they flipped? Michael Carter Williams? I'd deal a guy like that too. It's funny how many people on here hate "the treadmill" but MCW? Seems like a treadmill level talent to me. I think they blew it with that pick and yet they turned it into another #1, top 5 protected.So a chance to move a #11 pick up a few slots. While maintaining the mission of being bad.

I get it. I lot of people hate the 76'ers approach. They think it skews the game and the league and goes against their sense of fair play and athletic competition. I felt exactly the same way for several years. But the more I considered it and read up on it, the more, UNFORTUNATELY, it makes total sense.

And the NBA having this issue, of a handful of teams having a handful of dominant stars, isn't new. It's just gotten worse over the years and the superfriends teams just take it to a new level. Now, this will sound like I'm some old crusty bitter guy railing against change. Nope. I sort of disliked those players doing it at first due to...hey....sense of fair play and athletic competition (sounds very familiar...) But ultimately, the rules are set as such and it's the end result of players having enough financial clout and savvy to take more control over their destiny. Can't argue that. But IMHO, it's only going to stay the same or get worse from now on, unless the league steps in in some way (probably not). Now, again, the issue predates the superfriends and has always been an issue, competition wise, for the NBA. I'm probably paraphrasing someone here (Simmons?) but in the late 70's the league had what it considered a real PR problem based on drug use/inner city black players combo that could drive away it's largely white fans. When "stars" like Bird, Magic, Jordan saved the league in terms of popularity, I think the league has run with the "star machine" hard, ever since. Like a defense mechanism that worked for a time but is sort of maladjusted but the person never drops it even when it's not working out as well as it once did
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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#696 » by Synciere » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:47 pm

All that verbiage and y'all still can't see that tanking just doesn't work. When you tank, you get good at one thing: losing.


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Re: Fury #9 wins...err, Minny wins the coin toss! 

Post#697 » by Nazrmohamed » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:34 am

Synciere wrote:All that verbiage and y'all still can't see that tanking just doesn't work. When you tank, you get good at one thing: losing.


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All I know is we've spent years avoiding it and we could write the book on losing. So whatever ideal you wanna believe is up to, but practicality shows that we need a new approach.

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