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Did we misread Dantoni?

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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#81 » by Billy Goat » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:07 pm

Bill Pidto wrote:
Billy Goat wrote:
Bill Pidto wrote:Of course we misread him and treated him too harshly. That's what "we" do.

Melo and D'Antoni was a horrible match. But didn't have to be.

Melo is basically Marbury 2.0 at this point. A lot of differences of course, but some glaring similarities:

Supremely talented, supposed to be the team's best player and leader, can't lead, cant defend, can't be coached to adjust game, can't win. Team stuck in rut with them.

It is what it is.


The Knicks, for whatever reason under Dolan have always overvalued PPG when building a team. They've also ignored everything else when filling out a roster.


Until Phil came along.


I think he's making an effort there. However the Rose trade never made any sense.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#82 » by MaseInYourFace » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:13 pm

Sark wrote:I hated MDA as coach. Melo getting him "fired" was one of the best things Melo did.


Yeah I wasn't a fan either. Dantoni was also just a bad dude. YOu can be unlikeable and great at your job and everyone will love you but being a p.o.s coach while also being a p.o.s is hard to take as a fan. Last competent head coach knicks had was JVG. I stick by that. Woodson got exposed.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#83 » by Are We Ther Yet » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:49 pm

The Knicks gave Pringles the long hard one. Totally wasted years of his career with the promise of building him a team and then boom...switch directions.

The same thing with Melo. The ineptitude and the constant changing of the guard wasted his prime here. Along with multiple horrible moves.

This all began with Dolan and, it all ends with him. Hiring Phil is the only good thing he did and look how that's working out.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#84 » by dakomish23 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:19 am

moocow007 wrote:
poeman wrote:I am pretty sure if Steph Curry was the pick instead of a Jordan Hill...Dantoni probably still remains in the Knicks picture another 3 years after he got fired I think.

I was calling for Pringles to get fired, I was at the front of the line...I hated his LEGGO coaching, especially on defense.

However, lets focus on the Melo trade back in 2011...I know the Melo trade finalized on Feb 10th, 2011...
Based on our schedule, we went through a rough patch after the big win against Miami. Amare was playing MVP ball though.
http://www.landofbasketball.com/results_by_team/2010_2011_knicks.htm

Do you think long term wise we would have found success with the guys we had or it's true what they say about the Basketball Gods...They hate us, so we would still stick if the Melo trade did not happen?


[*]None of the guys we had back then (before the Carmelo trade) were James Harden level is the problem.

The problem isn't about D'Antoni or Anthony being the right choice, it's about fit. D'Antoni proved that if you give him the players that can play in his system that the team can be successful. Anthony proved that if you surround him the the players that can fit his style that team can be successful. The Knicks problem is trying to fit Anthony and D'Antoni together and putting neither in a situation to be successful.

Team build is extremely underrated. Surprising since that was by far the biggest problem Isiah Thomas had. It wasn't drafting. It wasn't technically getting the most talent in a trade. At the end of the day, Isiah Thomas' problem was the sheer and utter inability to build a team where the coach fit the players, the players fit the coach...everyone fit each other. So you'd expect Knick fans of anyone to see that.

Every successful team in the history of the NBA has been successful for a number of reasons but the biggest reason is because they fit extremely well as a team. Sure having the top talents in the league also is critical but if you cannot fit together and play as a team you aren't going to be able to win consistently and persistently.

As far as offense-centric or defense-centric, fast paced or slow paced, full court or half court...there is no ideal system. Most important thing is having everyone fit AND having elite talent. That wasn't the Knicks before or during Anthony, before, during or since D'Antoni. Slow paced defensive centric teams have won championships just as fast paced offensive centric teams and every type of team in between.

I'm sure if the Knicks had James Harden instead of Carmelo Anthony when D'antoni was here that things would have been great. Why? Because it would have been a much better fit. But MVP types like Harden don't grow on trees and you actually have to be a very skilled and astute front office to get one (see Why is it so critical to have a top notch front office?). Heck and even with MVP types, if the system doesn't fit (see Houston last year) you get called a chump and overrated (see Harden last year)


You could of stopped at that, even though everything else was spot on.

Two years ago with a James Harden MVP level season, McHale had them at the 2 seed and 56 wins. This year they had 55 wins and the 3 seed.

That guy is the best SG in the NBA and just led the league in assists. Take him off that team and maybe you get 20 wins. Don't care who the coach is.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#85 » by seren » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:45 am

I think DAntoni would most likely still be here if we didn't sign Chandler. We started the season with no PG and DAntoni didn't have the guts to bench Amar'e. Chandler/Amare/Melo starting together with zero ball handling will get any coach fired.

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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#86 » by whocares1 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:58 am

seren wrote:I think DAntoni would most likely still be here if we didn't sign Chandler. We started the season with no PG and DAntoni didn't have the guts to bench Amar'e. Chandler/Amare/Melo starting together with zero ball handling will get any coach fired.

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Amare came off the bench, and Amare never had an ego problem. He wasn't "scared" to bench Amare seeing as Amare excelled in his system..so did Chandler. Melo didn't.

Im not blaming Melo, but Mike D'antoni tried to use him as a point forward and it didn't work. Melo doesn't have the court vision and presence of mind to find people all over the court. He was much more comfortable in the mid/low block on isolation which stagnated Mike's offense.

It wasn't until Woodson allowed Melo to go down in the paint and force double teams, and he'd kick it out to Kidd who would swing it to Novak for a lot of easy looks. Melo's vision and awareness are all better down in the block and the team excelled playing inside out instead of outside in like Mike always wanted.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#87 » by br7knicks » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:33 pm

knicks may have been better with curry instead of anthony with mike as the HC. however, i don't think someone like dantoni can win a championship for the sole reason that he doesn't believe in defense.


so regardless of melo, curry, harden, etc., no championship will be won here in NY. none of those 3 players (and others) believe in any sort of defense. curry is fortunate to have defenders all around him. GSW would be fine without them, but with curry. but they wouldn't win a championship (and make the finals more than once) with just curry and other offensive-minded players.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#88 » by dakomish23 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:22 pm

So we should go after every coach who has a good year with a superstar? Someone get Mike Brown on the phone!
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#89 » by dakomish23 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:24 pm

whocares1 wrote:
seren wrote:I think DAntoni would most likely still be here if we didn't sign Chandler. We started the season with no PG and DAntoni didn't have the guts to bench Amar'e. Chandler/Amare/Melo starting together with zero ball handling will get any coach fired.

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Amare came off the bench, and Amare never had an ego problem. He wasn't "scared" to bench Amare seeing as Amare excelled in his system..so did Chandler. Melo didn't.

Im not blaming Melo, but Mike D'antoni tried to use him as a point forward and it didn't work. Melo doesn't have the court vision and presence of mind to find people all over the court. He was much more comfortable in the mid/low block on isolation which stagnated Mike's offense.

It wasn't until Woodson allowed Melo to go down in the paint and force double teams, and he'd kick it out to Kidd who would swing it to Novak for a lot of easy looks. Melo's vision and awareness are all better down in the block and the team excelled playing inside out instead of outside in like Mike always wanted.


On the Woj podcast, Mike D said Amare didn't want to go to the bench under his watch
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#90 » by newyorker4ever » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:29 pm

poeman wrote:I am pretty sure if Steph Curry was the pick instead of a Jordan Hill...Dantoni probably still remains in the Knicks picture another 3 years after he got fired I think.

I was calling for Pringles to get fired, I was at the front of the line...I hated his LEGGO coaching, especially on defense.

However, lets focus on the Melo trade back in 2011...I know the Melo trade finalized on Feb 10th, 2011...
Based on our schedule, we went through a rough patch after the big win against Miami. Amare was playing MVP ball though.
http://www.landofbasketball.com/results_by_team/2010_2011_knicks.htm

Do you think long term wise we would have found success with the guys we had or it's true what they say about the Basketball Gods...They hate us, so we would still stick if the Melo trade did not happen?




No we didn't, this is just one more thing to prove that the players you have mean much more than the coach you have. They gave Dantoni a team full of guys that can shoot the rock from 3 along with other good pieces and having a super star in Harden.

D.Fisher could win with that team.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#91 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:58 pm

Greenie wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Greenie wrote:Once again with this.

Mike was here before Melo.

I'm pretty sure D'Antoni never coached Melo for a full 82 game season. Stop this nonsense. Mike was on the verge of getting fired well before Melo was a Knick.


That's just wrong. The team was rebuilding and playing very well with just STAT, et al.

We were 30-26 at the time we traded for Melo. Our record that season after getting Melo was 12-14.

Your point?

That team was supposed to be a top team in the east after the summer of 2010 and still they were average at best.

That's why they went and got Melo, to help push them into that lane. **** ended up going left though with our highest paid player constantly injured and the front office thinking a center was more important than a PG.


My point is that the team got worse after Melo came. Jesus, you spending too much time on that United account

Top team? LOLOL. In what world? We were predicted to MAYBE make the playoffs. I guess maybe you were expecting Kellena Azuilibuke to come back.

I'd love to see a source/link for what you say about the Knicks being a "top team in the East." Yeah, the Heat had to chase the Knicks that year. LOL.

NBA analyst Dennis Scott Knicks preview

http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/new-york-knicks-2010-11-preview-coach-mike-d-antoni-gets-his-pieces-1.2399572

Intangibles

This is certainly the most likable Knicks team in recent memory. It's not a rough-and-tumble group. Their fast-paced game will finally give D'Antoni the players to fit into his system. Still, only consistent winning will satisfy the demands of New York fans. If the Knicks learn to play to the Madison Square Garden crowd, then home-court advantage can return for the team. "If the Knicks stay healthy, and Amar'e, Felton and Galinari have solid years, the Knicks should be competing for the eighth playoff spot," Scott said.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#92 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:05 pm

Greenie wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:When you hire Mike D'Antoni you know you're going to be running a PG oriented offense with a lot of 3-point shooting. Everything was going in the right direction until we got another shiny object in Melo and got rid of Felton who was at that time playing at an All Star level. As a matter of fact, a large number of people believed he should've made the All Star team for the East.

Melo got MDA fired because he didn't want to buy into that system either.


Felton fell off. That's why he didn't make the damn all-star game.

Let's not have revisionist history right now.


You're really going to make me look this up? :noway:

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http://bleacherreport.com/articles/587609-nba-all-star-game-raymond-felton-and-10-players-most-likely-to-be-snubbed


NBA All-Star Game: Raymond Felton and 10 Players Most Likely to be Snubbed
JOSEPH CHASAN
JANUARY 28, 2011

The NBA All-Star Game starting lineups were announced today and by golly if the fans didn't actually get things mostly right this year. In the East, it's Derrick Rose and Dwyane Wade as the guards, LeBron James and Amar'e Stoudemire as the forwards, with Dwight Howard as the center. Out West, the guards are Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant, the forwards are Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony, and the center is...Yao Ming?

OK, there's obviously legitimate beef with Yao—he of the five games played this season being voted in as the Western Conference starter at center—and perhaps with Derrick Rose getting the start at point guard over league assist leader Rajon Rondo. But otherwise, I'm not mad at that list.

Now, however, is where the fun really begins. Each team currently has five players, and they need to get to 12 by February 3rd, when the reserves, as selected by the coaches, will be announced. Sure, guys like Rondo and Dirk and Steve Nash are still gonna make it, but what about the players who aren't automatic?

Here are my arguments for the sometimes overlooked players that should still get to take that trip to Hollywood.

_____________

8. Raymond Felton

When the Knicks signed Felton as a free agent this past summer, to many Knicks fans he was an afterthought. They missed out on LeBron, so ok, who's left? You? Alright, I guess you'll do.

Well aren't they singing a different tune now? While Amar'e Stoudemire has gotten the lion's share of the attention, and rightfully so with his MVP-like play, Felton has quietly been enjoying a career year, and has looked like the best point guard the Knicks have had since...a young Mark Jackson?

He's averaging career highs in almost every category, including scoring (17.5 per game) and assists (8.9 per game, sixth in the league). He's also been a capable leader, and has run coach Mike D'Antoni's high octane offense to perfection while helping the Knicks finally escape mediocrity and creep towards respectability.

Maybe Knicks fans would still take CP3 if he were to become available, but otherwise, they're quite happy with RF2.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#93 » by Dr. Detfink » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:28 pm

Good lord. You guys brought back so many awful memories...

"Magic" Mike D'Antoni was hired over a New York guy like Thibs because James Dolan and Isiah Thomas, the front office geniuses heard about how much Lebron enjoyed playing for D'Antoni's system on the 2008 Olympic Team. Then Isiah was nailed in a Sexual Harassment case that awarded Anucha Browne Sanders more money than Jerome James. Enter Donnie Walsh who moved contracts while the Knicks tanked hard, hoping they could add Lebron and one more superstar.

How'd that work out?

Lebron, Wade, Bosh, and every top free agent stuck their nose up at the Knicks. Walsh feared the Knicks were about to get shut out and signed Amare, outbidding Phoenix by $10M per season.

Let's be clear. D'Antoni never won a championship with Phoenix. His teams only sniffed the Finals. That holds true with the Rockets. Insanely entertaining Houston Rockets team but they're not winning squat this season.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#94 » by Jeff Van Gully » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:43 pm

Greenie wrote:
JBreezeNY wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
That and Stoudemire wasn't a fit with Anthony as both guys operated in the same space and had the same unbalanced game.

Yup exactly.

We should've played the Lebron sweepstakes better. We don't get Lebron Bosh or Wade? Cool.

Save that money & don't waste it on uninsured knees.

And then we can't even amnesty him?

Bumbaclot...

This


stat opened the door to make NY a respectable destination. he also played like an mvp year one... pretty much until the melo trade.

not bashing melo... but stat deserves more credit for choosing NY and getting the team in position for better expectations.

had the knees held up, stat and melo were a bad fit. kidd made this thing go.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#95 » by Jeff Van Gully » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:46 pm

no, we didn't misread pringles. he is what he always has been. team looked aight when he had decent PGs like felton and lin instead of sorority house booze hound duhon.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#96 » by Greenie » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:11 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Greenie wrote:
JBreezeNY wrote:Yup exactly.

We should've played the Lebron sweepstakes better. We don't get Lebron Bosh or Wade? Cool.

Save that money & don't waste it on uninsured knees.

And then we can't even amnesty him?

Bumbaclot...

This


stat opened the door to make NY a respectable destination. he also played like an mvp year one... pretty much until the melo trade.

not bashing melo... but stat deserves more credit for choosing NY and getting the team in position for better expectations.

had the knees held up, stat and melo were a bad fit. kidd made this thing go.

True.

However, we weren't supposed to sign him.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#97 » by fresko024 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:23 pm

Knicks93 wrote:Don't think we misread, we thought he was a good coach. Melo just refused to change for his system, same thing with Phil and the triangle now. We chose Melo over Mike


This! Dantoni resigned because he was frustrated with Melo
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#98 » by Rotten Apple » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:42 pm

dakomish23 wrote:So we should go after every coach who has a good year with a superstar? Someone get Mike Brown on the phone!


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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#99 » by MrProb » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:02 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Greenie wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:When you hire Mike D'Antoni you know you're going to be running a PG oriented offense with a lot of 3-point shooting. Everything was going in the right direction until we got another shiny object in Melo and got rid of Felton who was at that time playing at an All Star level. As a matter of fact, a large number of people believed he should've made the All Star team for the East.

Melo got MDA fired because he didn't want to buy into that system either.


Felton fell off. That's why he didn't make the damn all-star game.

Let's not have revisionist history right now.


You're really going to make me look this up? :noway:

Be right back ....

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/587609-nba-all-star-game-raymond-felton-and-10-players-most-likely-to-be-snubbed


NBA All-Star Game: Raymond Felton and 10 Players Most Likely to be Snubbed
JOSEPH CHASAN
JANUARY 28, 2011

The NBA All-Star Game starting lineups were announced today and by golly if the fans didn't actually get things mostly right this year. In the East, it's Derrick Rose and Dwyane Wade as the guards, LeBron James and Amar'e Stoudemire as the forwards, with Dwight Howard as the center. Out West, the guards are Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant, the forwards are Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony, and the center is...Yao Ming?

OK, there's obviously legitimate beef with Yao—he of the five games played this season being voted in as the Western Conference starter at center—and perhaps with Derrick Rose getting the start at point guard over league assist leader Rajon Rondo. But otherwise, I'm not mad at that list.

Now, however, is where the fun really begins. Each team currently has five players, and they need to get to 12 by February 3rd, when the reserves, as selected by the coaches, will be announced. Sure, guys like Rondo and Dirk and Steve Nash are still gonna make it, but what about the players who aren't automatic?

Here are my arguments for the sometimes overlooked players that should still get to take that trip to Hollywood.

_____________

8. Raymond Felton

When the Knicks signed Felton as a free agent this past summer, to many Knicks fans he was an afterthought. They missed out on LeBron, so ok, who's left? You? Alright, I guess you'll do.

Well aren't they singing a different tune now? While Amar'e Stoudemire has gotten the lion's share of the attention, and rightfully so with his MVP-like play, Felton has quietly been enjoying a career year, and has looked like the best point guard the Knicks have had since...a young Mark Jackson?

He's averaging career highs in almost every category, including scoring (17.5 per game) and assists (8.9 per game, sixth in the league). He's also been a capable leader, and has run coach Mike D'Antoni's high octane offense to perfection while helping the Knicks finally escape mediocrity and creep towards respectability.

Maybe Knicks fans would still take CP3 if he were to become available, but otherwise, they're quite happy with RF2.


Any competent PG looks good under D'Antoni tho.

Remember Chris Duhon? remember his 25 assists game or something like that?
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#100 » by don't panac » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:26 pm

Greenie wrote:
Knicks93 wrote:Don't think we misread, we thought he was a good coach. Melo just refused to change for his system, same thing with Phil and the triangle now. We chose Melo over Mike

Once again with this.

Mike was here before Melo.

I'm pretty sure D'Antoni never coached Melo for a full 82 game season. Stop this nonsense. Mike was on the verge of getting fired well before Melo was a Knick.


this is simply untrue.
the team was overperforming and very entertaining.
there was no talk whatsoever about firing d'antoni
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