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Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD

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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#421 » by shtolky » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:17 pm

Disgruntled wrote:
stuporman wrote:
Disgruntled wrote:

No absolutely not. Hardaway is an above average scorer at this point.That's it. Every other facet of his game is either weak or terrible. Scoring 18points but doing absolutely nothing else is not going to cut it in my book at all. No rebounding, no passing, questionable shots, low bball IQ. Some posters say his defense is not abysmal anymore...when I say him play last season I thought his defense was still terrible but some disagree.


You are just a disgruntled ballboy so please excuse me for telling you to stfu. :lol:


Of course I am disgruntled. How can you not be disgruntled if you have followed the Knicks for 25 years? It is sickening to have an idiot like Steve Mills be FOBO after all the terrible years I went through as a knick fan. A guy that on his first day as FOBO shells out 23mill. for Baker and Hardaway. An idiot that ties up an all-star level salary to two players with a mediocre ceiling. It's just plain idiot and sets the franchise back for another 3 years. Then he goes out and adds a guy that made a terrible job in Orlando...a guy that just tied Orlando to two contracts that many consider among the top 10 worst in the league (Fournier and Biyombo).....tell me what is positive right now?



July 7, 2016

ORLANDO – The Orlando Magic have signed free agent center Bismack Biyombo (bis-MOCK bee-OM-bo), General Manager Rob Hennigan announced today. Per team policy, terms of the deal are not disclosed.



See that name above...that's was the GM in Orlando when Biyombo was signed. Also, even if you assume Perry was the guy to blame, you conveniently then forget to list his accomplishments in Detroit where they...you know, won a title. Can't cherry pick just to serve your argument. If he sucked in Orlando, he was amazing in Detroit (and had a very good offseason by all accounts in Sacramento).

Also, if you think that 2nd half THJ wouldn't be worth 17m a year, you didn't actually watch him play last year, it's as simple as that. Not saying he will be that, but that type of production is worth 17m in today's NBA.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#422 » by Crunchknicks1 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:19 pm

Tim fits what they want. 25 years old can shot and run. Handle the ball some. Hard worker and knows New York. This is what Jeff wa ya to do with his team. He fits the way they want to play. They tried for Dion too. This is the way they want to play. Having a guy like him will help we over paid yes. But I like hard workers with talent
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#423 » by Disgruntled » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:28 pm

shtolky wrote:
Disgruntled wrote:
stuporman wrote:
You are just a disgruntled ballboy so please excuse me for telling you to stfu. :lol:


Of course I am disgruntled. How can you not be disgruntled if you have followed the Knicks for 25 years? It is sickening to have an idiot like Steve Mills be FOBO after all the terrible years I went through as a knick fan. A guy that on his first day as FOBO shells out 23mill. for Baker and Hardaway. An idiot that ties up an all-star level salary to two players with a mediocre ceiling. It's just plain idiot and sets the franchise back for another 3 years. Then he goes out and adds a guy that made a terrible job in Orlando...a guy that just tied Orlando to two contracts that many consider among the top 10 worst in the league (Fournier and Biyombo).....tell me what is positive right now?



July 7, 2016

ORLANDO – The Orlando Magic have signed free agent center Bismack Biyombo (bis-MOCK bee-OM-bo), General Manager Rob Hennigan announced today. Per team policy, terms of the deal are not disclosed.



See that name above...that's was the GM in Orlando when Biyombo was signed. Also, even if you assume Perry was the guy to blame, you conveniently then forget to list his accomplishments in Detroit where they...you know, won a title. Can't cherry pick just to serve your argument. If he sucked in Orlando, he was amazing in Detroit (and had a very good offseason by all accounts in Sacramento).

Also, if you think that 2nd half THJ wouldn't be worth 17m a year, you didn't actually watch him play last year, it's as simple as that. Not saying he will be that, but that type of production is worth 17m in today's NBA.


So we can say the Jury is still out on Perry.

You are rationalizing this signing in order to feel better about it. If that was the case, shouldn't the Hawks have retained him? His home team, the Hawks, clearly thought he is nowhere worth that contract. That's why they didn't match. Prior to free agency the Hawks announced that they intend to match any offer and keep Hardaway. Heck , in general, teams tend to match offers for their RFA even if they slightly overpay. The fact that the Hawks choose to not match Hardaway and didn't even take the full 48hours to notify the Knicks should tell you what they thought about that offer. The team that traded for Hardaway, giving up a first round pick, then developed him into a solid bench player, then announced that they want to keep him around refused to match a contract that you are saying is reasonable.

Let me be very clear about this: Outside some knick fans, who are either trying to rationalize this terrible signing or really believe in Hardaway's ability to make a huge improvement, no one else believes that this contract was anywhere near reasonable. In fact if you read around the league, almost all articles and analysts were baffled by this signing. The Knicks have been called "nuts" , "idiots" for dealing out an insane contract to a bench player. If what you think or say about Hardaway held any truth to it, then Hardaway would be wearing a Hawks uniform next season.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#424 » by JohnStarksTheDunk » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:32 pm

Disgruntled wrote:The stupidity of Mills is baffling. He wants to go forward with long, athletic players that play defense. Then he goes out and ties up 71mill. to a player that , for his position, is not particularly long, not that athletic and plays little to no defense at all.


Yup. I have no problem with what Mills said, but the THJ signing is not consistent with those words, so for now it's all talk. Phil said he wanted to rebuild too, and then ended up trading for Rose and signing Noah.

dakomish23 wrote:We overpaid to get him. Should of stopped at 14 per as I do not think ATL matched with the young wings they had in place and Baze already on the books. Absolutely ridiculous that it is isn't a team option on the 4th year and that we gave him the trade kicker in case we want to dump him before.

Him living up to the salary is a different argument IMO.


Yeah, I agree with this as well. We can talk about whether he might end up living up to the contract (he easily might, or he just as easily might not), but that is separate from the fact that we paid more than we needed to get him.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#425 » by shtolky » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:35 pm

Disgruntled wrote:
shtolky wrote:
Disgruntled wrote:
Of course I am disgruntled. How can you not be disgruntled if you have followed the Knicks for 25 years? It is sickening to have an idiot like Steve Mills be FOBO after all the terrible years I went through as a knick fan. A guy that on his first day as FOBO shells out 23mill. for Baker and Hardaway. An idiot that ties up an all-star level salary to two players with a mediocre ceiling. It's just plain idiot and sets the franchise back for another 3 years. Then he goes out and adds a guy that made a terrible job in Orlando...a guy that just tied Orlando to two contracts that many consider among the top 10 worst in the league (Fournier and Biyombo).....tell me what is positive right now?



July 7, 2016

ORLANDO – The Orlando Magic have signed free agent center Bismack Biyombo (bis-MOCK bee-OM-bo), General Manager Rob Hennigan announced today. Per team policy, terms of the deal are not disclosed.



See that name above...that's was the GM in Orlando when Biyombo was signed. Also, even if you assume Perry was the guy to blame, you conveniently then forget to list his accomplishments in Detroit where they...you know, won a title. Can't cherry pick just to serve your argument. If he sucked in Orlando, he was amazing in Detroit (and had a very good offseason by all accounts in Sacramento).

Also, if you think that 2nd half THJ wouldn't be worth 17m a year, you didn't actually watch him play last year, it's as simple as that. Not saying he will be that, but that type of production is worth 17m in today's NBA.


So we can say the Jury is still out on Perry.

You are rationalizing this signing in order to feel better about it. If that was the case, shouldn't the Hawks have retained him? His home team, the Hawks, clearly thought he is nowhere worth that contract. That's why they didn't match. Prior to free agency the Hawks announced that they intend to match any offer and keep Hardaway. Heck , in general, teams tend to match offers for their RFA even if they slightly overpay. The fact that the Hawks choose to not match Hardaway and didn't even take the full 48hours to notify the Knicks should tell you what they thought about that offer. The team that traded for Hardaway, giving up a first round pick, then developed him into a solid bench player, then announced that they want to keep him around refused to match a contract that you are saying is reasonable.

Let me be very clear about this: Outside some knick fans, who are either trying to rationalize this terrible signing or really believe in Hardaway's ability to make a huge improvement, no one else believes that this contract was anywhere near reasonable. In fact if you read around the league, almost all articles and analysts were baffled by this signing. The Knicks have been called "nuts" , "idiots" for dealing out an insane contract to a bench player. If what you think or say about Hardaway held any truth to it, then Hardaway would be wearing a Hawks uniform next season.



Sure the jury is still out as far as him being GM, but you can't blame him for the Orlando situation without giving him praise for Detroit and Sacramento.

I'm not rationalizing the signing. You didn't read what I said. I said IF he produced how he did in the 2nd half of last year, with the scoring output and stellar percentages along with improved defense, then yes, that type of production is worth 17m in today's NBA. As far as the Hawks retaining him, that's way too simple an argument. Had we offered less money, they probably retain him. I doubt they wanted to spend 70m each on Bazemore and THJ, and they are rebuilding even more than we are.

Again, the contract cannot be considered a bust or not because he hasn't played a second for us yet. As I said in my last post, if you think his production in the 2nd half isn't worth 17m per, you haven't been watching the league over the past few years.

As far as listening to articles and analysis, well that's laughable. If we were to listen to articles, and free agent analysis, and draft analysis, we all would have thought KP would be horrible, that scores of guys in the league would be average or just above average instead of stars. Many Hawks fans were actually disappointed he is off the team. A word of advice, just because the media, who loves to bash the Knicks at all costs, says things like "nuts" and "idiots" it's not always a good idea to believe that. I don't have to post more quotes about the KP pick being bashed do I? Why don't you actually wait for THJ to play an actual second of basketball before you agree with the media "experts."
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#426 » by Disgruntled » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:35 pm

Keep in mind that from what you could read , the Hawks were expecting 4/45mill.

It is quite obvious what happened to the Knicks during the Hardaway and Baker signing. Both agents sat down with Steve Mills and then proceeded to destroy him all across the board. Somehow , Bartelstein was able to sell Mills that the Hawks would match anything less than 70mill. + player option + trade kicker when in fact from all reports that you could read Hardaway was estimated to command around 45mill. , maybe 50mill. It remains a big mystery whom the Knicks were bidding against in going so high. You would think that we are a 55win team looking or that final piece to the puzzle.

As for the Baker signing....again, where is the sense in that? Baker was worth the 1.3 minimum contract. Why would any sensable GM hand out close to 5mill. a year for Baker? On top of that Baker's agent was able to get a player option out of that? How? So for the extremely unlikely scenario that the untalented Baker erupts and plays extremely well...well then he can opt out and command a larger salary. Tell me, in what scenario do the Knicks win this deal?

I said it before and I'll say it again...Larry Brown was right in his assessment of Steve Mills. Mills has no clue about basketball and both Baker's agent and Bartelstein took big time advantage of him.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#427 » by Disgruntled » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:40 pm

shtolky wrote:
Disgruntled wrote:
shtolky wrote:

July 7, 2016

ORLANDO – The Orlando Magic have signed free agent center Bismack Biyombo (bis-MOCK bee-OM-bo), General Manager Rob Hennigan announced today. Per team policy, terms of the deal are not disclosed.



See that name above...that's was the GM in Orlando when Biyombo was signed. Also, even if you assume Perry was the guy to blame, you conveniently then forget to list his accomplishments in Detroit where they...you know, won a title. Can't cherry pick just to serve your argument. If he sucked in Orlando, he was amazing in Detroit (and had a very good offseason by all accounts in Sacramento).

Also, if you think that 2nd half THJ wouldn't be worth 17m a year, you didn't actually watch him play last year, it's as simple as that. Not saying he will be that, but that type of production is worth 17m in today's NBA.


So we can say the Jury is still out on Perry.

You are rationalizing this signing in order to feel better about it. If that was the case, shouldn't the Hawks have retained him? His home team, the Hawks, clearly thought he is nowhere worth that contract. That's why they didn't match. Prior to free agency the Hawks announced that they intend to match any offer and keep Hardaway. Heck , in general, teams tend to match offers for their RFA even if they slightly overpay. The fact that the Hawks choose to not match Hardaway and didn't even take the full 48hours to notify the Knicks should tell you what they thought about that offer. The team that traded for Hardaway, giving up a first round pick, then developed him into a solid bench player, then announced that they want to keep him around refused to match a contract that you are saying is reasonable.

Let me be very clear about this: Outside some knick fans, who are either trying to rationalize this terrible signing or really believe in Hardaway's ability to make a huge improvement, no one else believes that this contract was anywhere near reasonable. In fact if you read around the league, almost all articles and analysts were baffled by this signing. The Knicks have been called "nuts" , "idiots" for dealing out an insane contract to a bench player. If what you think or say about Hardaway held any truth to it, then Hardaway would be wearing a Hawks uniform next season.



Sure the jury is still out as far as him being GM, but you can't blame him for the Orlando situation without giving him praise for Detroit and Sacramento.

I'm not rationalizing the signing. You didn't read what I said. I said IF he produced how he did in the 2nd half of last year, with the scoring output and stellar percentages along with improved defense, then yes, that type of production is worth 17m in today's NBA. As far as the Hawks retaining him, that's way too simple an argument. Had we offered less money, they probably retain him. I doubt they wanted to spend 70m each on Bazemore and THJ, and they are rebuilding even more than we are.

Again, the contract cannot be considered a bust or not because he hasn't played a second for us yet. As I said in my last post, if you think his production in the 2nd half isn't worth 17m per, you haven't been watching the league over the past few years.

As far as listening to articles and analysis, well that's laughable. If we were to listen to articles, and free agent analysis, and draft analysis, we all would have thought KP would be horrible, that scores of guys in the league would be average or just above average instead of stars. Many Hawks fans were actually disappointed he is off the team. A word of advice, just because the media, who loves to bash the Knicks at all costs, says things like "nuts" and "idiots" it's not always a good idea to believe that. I don't have to post more quotes about the KP pick being bashed do I? Why don't you actually wait for THJ to play an actual second of basketball before you agree with the media "experts."


We just completely view Hardaway differently. Even in today's NBA a player like Hardaway averaging 17points a game is not worth 71mill. Not even close. If he had some other skill other than scoring then you may have had a point. But here is a player that can only score points. He does not rebound,does not pass, still takes a lot of questionable shots, to me seems like that typical low bball IQ player and is a questionable defender at best. Even if he averages 18points throughout the 82 games , IMO he is nowhere near worth that contract. Even in today's NBA--to be worth that type of contract you better be able to do more for your team then only put up 15-18 points a night.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#428 » by Disgruntled » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:42 pm

BTW what about Dion Waiters? He put up similar or even better stats last season and was resigned to a 4 year/52 million contract. How is Hardaway any better than him? How does Hardaway justify 20mill. more?

And before you bring that RFA argument and how we had to overpay to get him here: Well I think we all agree that we need to tank right now, right? So in essence...once Mills got to the point where it was obvious that he had to blatantly overpay Hardaway to get him here...he should have easily called it off. It is not even close.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#429 » by Knicksfan1992 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:46 pm

Disgruntled wrote:BTW what about Dion Waiters? He put up similar or even better stats last season and was resigned to a 4 year/52 million contract. How is Hardaway any better than him? How does Hardaway justify 20mill. more?

And before you bring that RFA argument and how we had to overpay to get him here: Well I think we all agree that we need to tank right now, right? So in essence...once Mills got to the point where it was obvious that he had to blatantly overpay Hardaway to get him here...he should have easily called it off. It is not even close.


Hardaway is far more efficient than Waiters is.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#430 » by Disgruntled » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:50 pm

Knicksfan1992 wrote:
Disgruntled wrote:BTW what about Dion Waiters? He put up similar or even better stats last season and was resigned to a 4 year/52 million contract. How is Hardaway any better than him? How does Hardaway justify 20mill. more?

And before you bring that RFA argument and how we had to overpay to get him here: Well I think we all agree that we need to tank right now, right? So in essence...once Mills got to the point where it was obvious that he had to blatantly overpay Hardaway to get him here...he should have easily called it off. It is not even close.


Hardaway is far more efficient than Waiters is.



Are you sure? They have lamost identical career shooting percentages. In fact last season Waiters shot close to 40% from three. He averaged 16points/4.3assists/3rebounds throughout the season. Was Hardaway's season really better than that? Hardaway had a PER of 15.2 while Waiters had a PER of 14.6.....that much of a difference? Worth 20mill.?
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#431 » by Crunchknicks1 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:19 pm

Omg with the Tim Hardaway stuff let it go already. He a knick let's hope it work out. They over paid we get it kill mills. Fire Perry yea yea yea. Can we move on now. I mean come on he 25 years old it not like Noah broken down. He can get better Thur over paid happens every time with Rec free agents you over pay. They would not have paid that amount if he was a free agent saved maybe 15 million over four years. Ok we get it they over paid. But at least he young know the city a hard worker. Will fit Jeff system. Can play I today's NBA got better on D and will continue to get better. Now let's see what they do going forward this is done already let it go
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#432 » by Jay10 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:50 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
Jay10 wrote:Carmelo's NTC has people shook around here when it comes to THJr. :lol:

Him having a player option and trade kicker doesn't mean anything. He can agree to lower the trade kicker amount, the same way Chris Paul did to join the Rockets by taking $500,000 instead of the $3.6M he was owed if traded.


Nah. What's got people "shook" is that no matter who the GM is, we keep giving out way more than we're supposed to when signing someone.

Even more "shook" that fans such as yourself think it's ok. If you don't expect better, why should they give it to you?


The guy is a 25 year old player, who is getting what every shooting guard around his age is making.

You should pay more attention to how he plays, and less about his money down to the last digit.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#433 » by blueNorange » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:54 pm

it's 2017 and people still don't know how efficiency works.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#434 » by fatalogic » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:59 pm

We overpay because we are bad it is as simple as that. Agents see the Knicks phone call and add X millions to the deal because it's the Knicks. They have no leverage in contract negotiations. Ny is bad, has horrid media , impatient fans, high taxes and horrid weather half the season. That is the reality. We will get players on good deals when we prove we are run like a competent team. The Ron Baker deal pisses me off more than Thj because there are way more Ron Baker type players in the league than Thj.


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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#435 » by Lcny » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:05 pm

If this is a full rebuild one very important thing needs to be ironed out ASAP. Melo cannot play the 3 this season. He badly wants to go to Houston where he would have to guess what, play the 4. So he has zero right to cry about playing the four in NY. You do whats in best interest of the team.
That said. This obviously means accelerating KP's move to the 5. Big position change. He can operate closer to basket resulting in less TO's driving to the basket. He should be two steps away from the hole and generate more fouls. He should still be able to net a couple transition 3's per game to keep his average up but his overall game more efficient by not sitting on the 3 line. A move to the 5 should all result in more 2nd chance points and defensive rebounds.

If this transition works he should be Mr. Double double next season avg. 25 and 10.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#436 » by Jay10 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:10 pm

Lcny wrote:If this is a full rebuild one very important thing needs to be ironed out ASAP. Melo cannot play the 3 this season. He badly wants to go to Houston where he would have to guess what, play the 4. So he has zero right to cry about playing the four in NY. You do whats in best interest of the team.
That said. This obviously means accelerating KP's move to the 5. Big position change. He can operate closer to basket resulting in less TO's driving to the basket. He should be two steps away from the hole and generate more fouls. He should still be able to net a couple transition 3's per game to keep his average up but his overall game more efficient by not sitting on the 3 line. A move to the 5 should all result in more 2nd chance points and defensive rebounds.

If this transition works he should be Mr. Double double next season avg. 25 and 10.


Janis will make it his business Kristaps never plays the center position.

Janis wants Kristaps' body type to be more Kevin Durant than Anthony Davis.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#437 » by fatalogic » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:27 pm

What is the rush to move kp to the center spot. He hasn't lasted a full year at the 4 with far less physical contact. Until he can play a full season at he 4 I see no reason to move him over. Plus he doesn't low post skills yet. Maybe down the road he will grow into the 5 but he is still 4-5 years away from his prime. He has face up skills right now so he should rely on that while he builds his low post skills.


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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#438 » by dakomish23 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:48 pm

Jay10 wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
Jay10 wrote:Carmelo's NTC has people shook around here when it comes to THJr. :lol:

Him having a player option and trade kicker doesn't mean anything. He can agree to lower the trade kicker amount, the same way Chris Paul did to join the Rockets by taking $500,000 instead of the $3.6M he was owed if traded.


Nah. What's got people "shook" is that no matter who the GM is, we keep giving out way more than we're supposed to when signing someone.

Even more "shook" that fans such as yourself think it's ok. If you don't expect better, why should they give it to you?


The guy is a 25 year old player, who is getting what every shooting guard around his age is making.

You should pay more attention to how he plays, and less about his money down to the last digit.


Now we should ignore cap flexibility when rebuilding? :lol:

Who cares what age he is compared to what he's making? How about we compare his output to what he's making??

You should pay more attention to how good teams operate. You would stop making excuses for bad decisions.
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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#439 » by Jay10 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:54 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
Jay10 wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
Nah. What's got people "shook" is that no matter who the GM is, we keep giving out way more than we're supposed to when signing someone.

Even more "shook" that fans such as yourself think it's ok. If you don't expect better, why should they give it to you?


The guy is a 25 year old player, who is getting what every shooting guard around his age is making.

You should pay more attention to how he plays, and less about his money down to the last digit.


Now we should ignore cap flexibility when rebuilding? :lol:

Who cares what age he is compared to what he's making? How about we compare his output to what he's making??

You should pay more attention to how good teams operate. You would stop making excuses for bad decisions.


How does THJr hurt a rebuild?

Acting as if THJr is making $20M per year and the cap is $50M.

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Re: Steve Mills Outlines The Knicks Plan: FULL REBUILD 

Post#440 » by BKlutch » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:00 pm

Lcny wrote:If this is a full rebuild one very important thing needs to be ironed out ASAP. Melo cannot play the 3 this season. He badly wants to go to Houston where he would have to guess what, play the 4. So he has zero right to cry about playing the four in NY. You do whats in best interest of the team.
That said. This obviously means accelerating KP's move to the 5. Big position change. He can operate closer to basket resulting in less TO's driving to the basket. He should be two steps away from the hole and generate more fouls. He should still be able to net a couple transition 3's per game to keep his average up but his overall game more efficient by not sitting on the 3 line. A move to the 5 should all result in more 2nd chance points and defensive rebounds.

If this transition works he should be Mr. Double double next season avg. 25 and 10.

Hi Ballboy. :wave:

Yes, it's true. Hornacek will play them just as you said so this can be considered a full rebuild. Anything short of that, and Perry will have his a$$.

Now STFU and GTFO.
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