Dantonis philosophy is flawed

[usman528]

I know our team is not even close to where in needs to be roster wise, but I have serious doubts about Knicks ever winning a title with Dantoni. Sure, he went far with the Suns, but even with stacked Suns teams he couldn't get over hump. And please don't bring up that horry foul, thas all speculation.

Look around, look at the Warriors. Sure they put up like 120 a night for years now, where has that gotten them.

Dantonis run and gun is like street ball, there seems to be no emphasis on defense or nice set plays. They do same freakin play every time. Pick and roll, Duhon drives and kicks which doesn't work real well against elite defensive teams.

I'm so impressed by Cavs and others who just go all out on D, cuz they know thats what it takes to win, not chucking up 30 threes a game.

Who the hell cares about fun basketball when you lose????

[Flaming Mo]

There's nothing wrong with having doubts about D'Antoni's system in terms of winning a title. Yet when you say it is like streetball, you couldn't be further off. His system is based on team basketball, great floor spacing, controlling the tempo and constant ball movement. Now how is that similar to streetball and it's one on one, no system culture?!? D'Antoni's offensive system is as good as it gets and he has proven that for many years not only in the NBA but also overseas. He also has won titles in Italy.

Right now we are losing, sure. But we are also playing little league frontlines out there. We are not even close to the point where we can and where we want to compete. Would I rather watch the rugged Knicks with their ferocious D from the 90s?!? Sure I would. I grew up with that style of basketball. But that isn't D'Antoni's fault and his system is a winning system, he has proved that. And even if we don't win a title with him, he atleast will bring a winning culture back to this team and to this franchise, something that hasn't been done in years...

[Fat Kat]

Patience. We all knew that this would be ugly before it got better. To see this thing through we'll have to watch lots of games like this but MikeD is a great coach. We're working towards the future. Can't have it both ways.

[Rockice_8]

It's not that D'Antoni doesn't preach defense, every coach does. It's just that his offensive style leads to easy shots for the other team. When you come down a launch a quick 3 that leads to long rebounds and fast breaks. You can't play that way and expect to be a good defensive team. Oh and D Lee at center doesn't help either. I'd have to agree with the assessment about not winning a championship with D'Antoni (this is based solely on my opinion) but his style just isn't championship caliber basketball. But hey even the Colts got lucky and pulled one out.

[Mahoney_jr]

Outsider's point of view [alert]

D'Antoni will at least build up the value of the choice number of players in his rotation. And as far as I am concerned that's right now the most important thing short- and mid-term for the "NY Contracts".

That Curry, James and Marbury didn't get any positive effects of D'Antoni as of yet might be annoying, but your team needed some no-nonsense philosophy added as well. I think Curry will get some value if he somehow gets to play next year. James might be a lost cause.

[kosmovitelli]

Dantonis philosophy is flawed

How is his philosophy flawed ? Because he never won a championship ?

Doc Rivers won a championship last year. Don't tell me you consider Rivers a better coach than d'Antoni ?

There are a few facts you need to know :
1) d'Antoni was promoted head coach of the Suns in december 2003 and led the team to 4 consecutive playoff seasons. He ONLY had 4 years and his best chance was destroyed when two of his players were suspended (similar to what happened to us in 1997)
2) d'Antoni coached a western team and they had the Spurs and Tim Duncan on their route every year (like we had the Bulls and MJ)
3) Pat Riley couldn't win a championship in NY, it doesn't mean he's a bad coach. Same for Jerry Sloan who's been a head coach for 20 years in Utah and had Stockton and Malone.


I always find it funny to see people quit on Mike d'Antoni while he only had 4 years to win a title (he's still a young coach) and give as an excuse the fact he didn't win a ring. We won 23 games last year and we haven't sniffled the playoffs for 4 years. Way too early to talk about a championship...

Rick Carlisle has rebuilt the Pistons and it's Larry Brown who won the championship with that team.
It doesn't mean Carlisle did a bad job, he contributed a lot. It was a work in progress and you assemble a championship team piece by piece. Asking yourself wether d'Antoni is the right man to win a ring is pointless now, it's not part of the problem. D'Antoni was hired because the team was in limbo, no system, co chemistry, no plan. He was hired to rebuild the roster and put the team back on track to the playoffs.

[TKF]

Dantonis philosophy is flawed

How is his philosophy flawed ? Because he never won a championship ?

Doc Rivers won a championship last year. Don't tell me you consider Rivers a better coach than d'Antoni ?

There are a few facts you need to know :
1) d'Antoni was promoted head coach of the Suns in december 2003 and led the team to 4 consecutive playoff seasons. He ONLY had 4 years and his best chance was destroyed when two of his players were suspended (similar to what happened to us in 1997)
2) d'Antoni coached a western team and they had the Spurs and Tim Duncan on their route every year (like we had the Bulls and MJ)
3) Pat Riley couldn't win a championship in NY, it doesn't mean he's a bad coach. Same for Jerry Sloan who's been a head coach for 20 years in Utah and had Stockton and Malone.


I always find it funny to see people quit on Mike d'Antoni while he only had 4 years to win a title (he's still a young coach) and give as an excuse the fact he didn't win a ring. We won 23 games last year and we haven't sniffled the playoffs for 4 years. Way too early to talk about a championship...

Rick Carlisle has rebuilt the Pistons and it's Larry Brown who won the championship with that team.
It doesn't mean Carlisle did a bad job, he contributed a lot. It was a work in progress and you assemble a championship team piece by piece. Asking yourself wether d'Antoni is the right man to win a ring is pointless now, it's not part of the problem. D'Antoni was hired because the team was in limbo, no system, co chemistry, no plan. He was hired to rebuild the roster and put the team back on track to the playoffs.

EXCELLENT POST kos.... I never understand when people say something is flawed, because it hasn't won a championship. As you said, he has had 4 years as head, just 4 years. guys like sloan, never won a ring and he has been coaching for 20 years as you said. Winning a ring requires a lot of things happenning, including some luck.. I said this before. Give him time. He has us on the right track. right now we are ahead of teams like philly and milwaukee and are right there with the raps and not far off from the hawks and miami. Teams many thought would be a good ways ahead of us...

[Luv those Knicks]

I agree,

Good post Kos, and Good Post Mo. Mo nailed the "it's not street ball" debate.


On Dantoni not wining, you need to take a couple of factors.

1: Spurs. That's a tough opponant. If Phoenix has been in the east, they'd have seen some finals appearances.

2: Amare's injury played a role.

3: There was the horry incident. (someone said not to mention it, but what's next - don't talk about the PJ brown incident when we talk about why Ewing never won a championship?), Maybe the Spurs win anyway, but that series was close, and the suns had a shot.

4: Suns were on a budget. How many first round picks did they give away? If they'd had a budget like the lakers or the blazers or mavs, forget about it. They could have built a much better team.

They gave away a pick that could have been Luol Deng. They maybe could have kept Joe Johnson, and they basically sold 2 late first round picks that could have been used in trade to add another star (granted 1 of those picks may have come in the Johnson trade, so maybe shouldn't list both examples), but Phoenix, more than any other team in the last 10 years, has given away assets to stay under a spending cap. That was out of Dantoni's control. I think, having that kind of budget makes it twice as hard to win a championship. The spurs won on a budget, but they had Duncan, and Duncan's was probably the best player in the NBA for something like 8 years.

[cavsfan_osiris]

D'Antoni is one of the best coaches in basketball. Don't let this Knicks situation fool you. They are basically tanking this year on purpose. I wouldn't be surprised if they start playing well after they sort out the roster a bit this year.

You saw how they were playing before they traded Randolph and Crawford. That wasn't a good team either and he had them looking good with potential. They probably liked what they saw, but didn't want to fall into the Isiah trap of trying to win now at all costs.

Wait until they get the players they want not these guys they have by default. D'Antoni will have the Knicks ballin and he will be worshiped in New York.

There are definitely questions about whether his system can win a championship because playoff ball is different than regular season ball and his style favors the regular season more. However I'd wait until they get personnel situated before rushing to judgment about D'Antoni. There are a bunch of horrible coaches in the NBA I'd be pleased in New York with one of the best.

That guy is so competitive he's probably really hurting right now even knowing they are tanking on purpose. When he gets his roster he will be out for revenge. I think he's that type of guy.

[usman528]

arite, you guys are on point pretty much and I am probably overreacting to a bad loss but I just don't like the idea of anyone and everyone chucking up threes. Whats the point of spreading the floor when everyone is just getting ready to chuck a three. I understand we are bad right now and thinking long term is the key, but at least try to drive. Take Wilsin Chandler for example. The man has the ability to take it to the rack, but he's content just shooting three after three. Its frustrating watching that. When I made the topic flawed, it was just a reaction to this. We don't have Nash to run around and do his magic, that doesn' t mean we just chuck threes. At least try to get the ball inside, to somebody, anybody.

And watch Jeffries in pre-game, he's practicing threes. lol. The man can't shoot a free throw.

Again, I concede points made by you guys are mainly true and I'm off a bit on my initial post, but reacting to what I see on the floor, not necessarily the score.

[boomann21]

EXCELLENT POST kos.... I never understand when people say something is flawed, because it hasn't won a championship. As you said, he has had 4 years as head, just 4 years. guys like sloan, never won a ring and he has been coaching for 20 years as you said. Winning a ring requires a lot of things happenning, including some luck.. I said this before. Give him time. He has us on the right track. right now we are ahead of teams like philly and milwaukee and are right there with the raps and not far off from the hawks and miami. Teams many thought would be a good ways ahead of us...

Before the trades your words would be true but since the trades took place, I can honestly say we are not ahead of any of thoe teams and we are defintely not in the same stratosphere as the Atlanta Hawks. D'antoni's scheme is a gimmick and I doubt if it produces any winning results in terms of championships but it does make the game a little more entertaining to watch.

[TKF]

EXCELLENT POST kos.... I never understand when people say something is flawed, because it hasn't won a championship. As you said, he has had 4 years as head, just 4 years. guys like sloan, never won a ring and he has been coaching for 20 years as you said. Winning a ring requires a lot of things happenning, including some luck.. I said this before. Give him time. He has us on the right track. right now we are ahead of teams like philly and milwaukee and are right there with the raps and not far off from the hawks and miami. Teams many thought would be a good ways ahead of us...

Before the trades your words would be true but since the trades took place, I can honestly say we are not ahead of any of thoe teams and we are defintely not in the same stratosphere as the Atlanta Hawks. D'antoni's scheme is a gimmick and I doubt if it produces any winning results in terms of championships but it does make the game a little more entertaining to watch.

gimmick? so what you are saying is that ball movement, player movement and pushing the ball are gimmicks? well if that is the case, so is pick and roll, and the triangle offense? right? Honestly, you could not be more wrong here...

[boomann21]

gimmick? so what you are saying is that ball movement, player movement and pushing the ball are gimmicks? well if that is the case, so is pick and roll, and the triangle offense? right? Honestly, you could not be more wrong here...

When it all comes down to it the NBA is a form of entertainment and D'Antoni's style is entertaining but it is not and never will be a formula for winning championships. During the regular season it looks like a top notch, solid gold, unbeatable way of playing basketball, but when playoff time comes, this style is forced into a slug it out, half-court, best team advances matchup it is lacking in meat. With out post players and people to defend the post it is almost impossible to win in the playoffs. When is the last time you seen a fast breaking team in the Finals. Honestly I couldn't be more right and I couldn't imagine myself getting more righter. You need big men who can both play on the block and play solid defense to win championships. And at this time we have neither.

[Luv those Knicks]

arite, you guys are on point pretty much and I am probably overreacting to a bad loss but I just don't like the idea of anyone and everyone chucking up threes. Whats the point of spreading the floor when everyone is just getting ready to chuck a three. I understand we are bad right now and thinking long term is the key, but at least try to drive. Take Wilsin Chandler for example. The man has the ability to take it to the rack, but he's content just shooting three after three. Its frustrating watching that. When I made the topic flawed, it was just a reaction to this. We don't have Nash to run around and do his magic, that doesn' t mean we just chuck threes. At least try to get the ball inside, to somebody, anybody.

And watch Jeffries in pre-game, he's practicing threes. lol. The man can't shoot a free throw.

Again, I concede points made by you guys are mainly true and I'm off a bit on my initial post, but reacting to what I see on the floor, not necessarily the score.

You are right, in the sense that one potential flaw with Dantoni's game is all the 3's. You need players who can hit 3s pretty consistantly for that to work and to win, you also need players who can penitrate and break down the D, while the other team is afraid to leave your shooers open.


I'm willing to give Dantoni the benefit of the doubt until we get some better players here. WIlson is young and he doesn't have a great handle, so, I give wilson the benefit of the doubt too.

[Luv those Knicks]

gimmick? so what you are saying is that ball movement, player movement and pushing the ball are gimmicks? well if that is the case, so is pick and roll, and the triangle offense? right? Honestly, you could not be more wrong here...

When it all comes down to it the NBA is a form of entertainment and D'Antoni's style is entertaining but it is not and never will be a formula for winning championships. During the regular season it looks like a top notch, solid gold, unbeatable way of playing basketball, but when playoff time comes, this style is forced into a slug it out, half-court, best team advances matchup it is lacking in meat. With out post players and people to defend the post it is almost impossible to win in the playoffs. When is the last time you seen a fast breaking team in the Finals. Honestly I couldn't be more right and I couldn't imagine myself getting more righter. You need big men who can both play on the block and play solid defense to win championships. And at this time we have neither.

I'm not saying your wrong, but just as a counter point - the Jordan Bulls were a fast breaking team, not a post up team. They did pretty good in the playoffs.

The Kemp Sonics and Barkley Suns and Drexler Blazers also made it to the finals as past break teams, ofcouse, those 3 teams lost, but they made it to the finals, and that was your question.




Especially with the way David Stern seems to want the game to be played, fast break teams do have a shot at wining the finals.

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure you're right. I think a fast break team could win a championship, or a few championships.

[TKF]

gimmick? so what you are saying is that ball movement, player movement and pushing the ball are gimmicks? well if that is the case, so is pick and roll, and the triangle offense? right? Honestly, you could not be more wrong here...

When it all comes down to it the NBA is a form of entertainment and D'Antoni's style is entertaining but it is not and never will be a formula for winning championships. During the regular season it looks like a top notch, solid gold, unbeatable way of playing basketball, but when playoff time comes, this style is forced into a slug it out, half-court, best team advances matchup it is lacking in meat. With out post players and people to defend the post it is almost impossible to win in the playoffs. When is the last time you seen a fast breaking team in the Finals. Honestly I couldn't be more right and I couldn't imagine myself getting more righter. You need big men who can both play on the block and play solid defense to win championships. And at this time we have neither.

that would be true if D'antoni had never won in the playoffs. He has, even getting to the WCF. That is winning, and far from gimmick ball. I think the mistake being made by many is that D'antoni is all about fast breaking ball. No it is about tempo, upbeat, get the best shot as fast as you can. If not, run the offense with ball movement...

You need big men who can both play on the block and play solid defense to win championships. And at this time we have neither.

well if that is the case, then it is more about players than it is the system right? every system needs those types of players. that is no secret. And of course we don't have that NOW. But why must everything in NY be about now..

when you are in college, you are working towards a degree in 4 or more years, right? so would it be fair for someone to label you a failure in year 1? It is a process, of course we don't have those players, but how does that reflect on D'antoni's philosophy?

[Bill Bradley]

EXCELLENT POST kos.... I never understand when people say something is flawed, because it hasn't won a championship. As you said, he has had 4 years as head, just 4 years. guys like sloan, never won a ring and he has been coaching for 20 years as you said. Winning a ring requires a lot of things happenning, including some luck.. I said this before. Give him time. He has us on the right track. right now we are ahead of teams like philly and milwaukee and are right there with the raps and not far off from the hawks and miami. Teams many thought would be a good ways ahead of us...

Before the trades your words would be true but since the trades took place, I can honestly say we are not ahead of any of thoe teams and we are defintely not in the same stratosphere as the Atlanta Hawks. D'antoni's scheme is a gimmick and I doubt if it produces any winning results in terms of championships but it does make the game a little more entertaining to watch.

Boomann you are a funny dude and I like you as a poster, but with all due respect you and most of the others who bash D'Antoni and Walsh are the same guys who defended Isiah to the end. So in terms of your assessment of the team and our future, you lack credibility.

[boomann21]

that would be true if D'antoni had never won in the playoffs. He has, even getting to the WCF. That is winning, and far from gimmick ball. I think the mistake being made by many is that D'antoni is all about fast breaking ball. No it is about tempo, upbeat, get the best shot as fast as you can. If not, run the offense with ball movement...

Winning in the playoffs equal championships. The Bulls won a round in the playoffs with the same squad who ended up with a bad enough record to get the #1 pick in the lottery. Would we consider their players winning players? Going to the Western Confernce Finals and losing should not be considered winning in the playoffs especially when your team had the best overall record that year. Do you think the Pistions felt like winners after they were eliminated by Boston, Cleveland and Miami in the ECF's? Did Joe Dumars even keep the coaches around after those defeats? No he did not. I can see your point of view differs from mind and I would like to see things your way for the hope of my team but I just don't see D'Antoni equaling a championship.

[TKF]

that would be true if D'antoni had never won in the playoffs. He has, even getting to the WCF. That is winning, and far from gimmick ball. I think the mistake being made by many is that D'antoni is all about fast breaking ball. No it is about tempo, upbeat, get the best shot as fast as you can. If not, run the offense with ball movement...

Winning in the playoffs equal championships. The Bulls won a round in the playoffs with the same squad who ended up with a bad enough record to get the #1 pick in the lottery. Would we consider their players winning players? Going to the Western Confernce Finals and losing should not be considered winning in the playoffs especially when your team had the best overall record that year. Do you think the Pistions felt like winners after they were eliminated by Boston, Cleveland and Miami in the ECF's? Did Joe Dumars even keep the coaches around after those defeats? No he did not. I can see your point of view differs from mind and I would like to see things your way for the hope of my team but I just don't see D'Antoni equaling a championship.

booman. would you say, sloan's system is flawed? it stresses defense and tough half court play to the fullest extent, yet he has never won a ring with that franchise? come on man. And the bulls example is flawed, because D'antoni never won under 50 games with that team and His philosophy, so what you are basically doing is making an argument for mike, because that same bulls team had a coach that preached defense first..... right now to talk championship with any coach and this current knick team is premature...

[boomann21]

Boomann you are a funny dude and I like you as a poster, but with all due respect you and most of the others who bash D'Antoni and Walsh are the same guys who defended Isiah to the end. So in terms of your assessment of the team and our future, you lack credibility.

I"ve made posts in refernce to the mistakes I think Isiah made and my opinion should be equal to anyone else's on a public message board. There are some here who called Nate Robinson a mascot player but are still allowed to post freely. What do you suggest that I stop posting and just watch you guys rub each other's balls every time Donnie Walsh signs another Anthony Roberson or trades for the exact same players Isiah accquired in Tim Thomas? Please advice me because I would like to know when it would be prudent for me to post here anymore. Should I take two years off and let everyone forget Isiah Thomas was here?