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Optimus_Steel wrote:

KingRobb02 wrote:I disagree. Shooting is a skill you either have or you don't. If a guy can make 12 shots in a row he does it because of skill. 12 half court heaves in a row is a different story. With rebounding, the "luck" comes in the fact that you have 11 other potential outcomes when a shot goes up (9 other rebounder, out of bounds, or points being scored). The skill is in positioning and guess which way the ball will come off the rim, but it's lucky that the Heat had no one challenging for those boards. Do you think Vucevic gets to 20 rebounds if Dwight Howard and Kenneth Faried are on the court?

I don't understand why you are trying to downplay the feat because it came against Miami's front-line. How come other players aren't constantly getting 20+ rebs against them? Its not like Vuc is averaging 5 rebs and suddenly explodes. He has had 16 and 17 rebs games and is 7th in the league in rebounding, btw averaging more rebs than Farried. Did we say it was lucky when Dwight got 26 rebs against a weak Philly front-line several years ago?

Not downplaying the achievement. Just saying that rebounding is more of an opportunity stat than shooting percentage. By mentioning Dwight and Faried I was just saying he's lucky he didn't share the court with better rebounders. I remember us giving Rashard Lewis a pass for his poor rebounding because he played next to Dwight. Just comes down to opportunity and actually seizing the chances when they happen.

KingRobb02 wrote:
I don't understand why you are trying to downplay the feat because it came against Miami's front-line. How come other players aren't constantly getting 20+ rebs against them? Its not like Vuc is averaging 5 rebs and suddenly explodes. He has had 16 and 17 rebs games and is 7th in the league in rebounding, btw averaging more rebs than Farried. Did we say it was lucky when Dwight got 26 rebs against a weak Philly front-line several years ago?

Not downplaying the achievement. Just saying that rebounding is more of an opportunity stat than shooting percentage. By mentioning Dwight and Faried I was just saying he's lucky he didn't share the court with better rebounders. I remember us giving Rashard Lewis a pass for his poor rebounding because he played next to Dwight. Just comes down to opportunity and actually seizing the chances when they happen.[/quote]

Chris Bosh isn't Dwight, but he is better than Faried and is a legit All-Star. So, Vucevic got 29 boards against Bosh while playing against the Defending NBA Championships. And, 11 Offensive boards is not an opportunistic achievement either. That just means he had to fight more than one player to get those types of boards. Your reaching bro. This was a tremendous accomplishment that only a few players in the history of the NBA can say they have accomplished. And, he did it against the NBA Champs.

BadMofoPimp wrote:

KingRobb02 wrote:
Not downplaying the achievement. Just saying that rebounding is more of an opportunity stat than shooting percentage. By mentioning Dwight and Faried I was just saying he's lucky he didn't share the court with better rebounders. I remember us giving Rashard Lewis a pass for his poor rebounding because he played next to Dwight. Just comes down to opportunity and actually seizing the chances when they happen.

Chris Bosh isn't Dwight, but he is better than Faried and is a legit All-Star. So, Vucevic got 29 boards against Bosh while playing against the Defending NBA Championships. And, 11 Offensive boards is not an opportunistic achievement either. That just means he had to fight more than one player to get those types of boards. Your reaching bro. This was a tremendous accomplishment that only a few players in the history of the NBA can say they have accomplished. And, he did it against the NBA Champs.

Bosh is lightyears ahead of Faried as a player, but as far as rebounding, Faried grabs nearly 20% and Bosh is under 14%. I'm not reaching. I'm just saying that rebounding is opportunistic because if the shot goes in, there is no rebound. It's a stat that depends on other players.

KingRobb02 wrote:

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Chris Bosh isn't Dwight, but he is better than Faried and is a legit All-Star. So, Vucevic got 29 boards against Bosh while playing against the Defending NBA Championships. And, 11 Offensive boards is not an opportunistic achievement either. That just means he had to fight more than one player to get those types of boards. Your reaching bro. This was a tremendous accomplishment that only a few players in the history of the NBA can say they have accomplished. And, he did it against the NBA Champs.

Bosh is lightyears ahead of Faried as a player, but as far as rebounding, Faried grabs nearly 20% and Bosh is under 14%. I'm not reaching. I'm just saying that rebounding is opportunistic because if the shot goes in, there is no rebound. It's a stat that depends on other players.

So, basically, what you are saying is that Vucevic didn't accomplish much. Heck, he only accompished a game only 7 other players in the history of the NBA ever accomplished, had a better rebounding game than Shaq or Dwight while completing this game against the reigning NBA Champions while playing head to head against an Multiple Time All-Star who is still on top of his game. Sure, you are not reaching bro. Accept the facts that what Vucevic did was not opportunistic, but he earned the vast majority of those boards and grabbing 29 of them is something special that only a few players have accomplished in modern basketball history. Not to mention scoring 20 points, a few blocks n steals while only being a 22 year old sophomore. Sure sounds opportunistic to me . . . NOT!!!

BadMofoPimp wrote:

KingRobb02 wrote:

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Chris Bosh isn't Dwight, but he is better than Faried and is a legit All-Star. So, Vucevic got 29 boards against Bosh while playing against the Defending NBA Championships. And, 11 Offensive boards is not an opportunistic achievement either. That just means he had to fight more than one player to get those types of boards. Your reaching bro. This was a tremendous accomplishment that only a few players in the history of the NBA can say they have accomplished. And, he did it against the NBA Champs.

Bosh is lightyears ahead of Faried as a player, but as far as rebounding, Faried grabs nearly 20% and Bosh is under 14%. I'm not reaching. I'm just saying that rebounding is opportunistic because if the shot goes in, there is no rebound. It's a stat that depends on other players.

So, basically, what you are saying is that Vucevic didn't accomplish much. Heck, he only accompished a game only 7 other players in the history of the NBA ever accomplished, had a better rebounding game than Shaq or Dwight while completing this game against the reigning NBA Champions while playing head to head against an Multiple Time All-Star who is still on top of his game. Sure, you are not reaching bro. Accept the facts that what Vucevic did was not opportunistic, but he earned the vast majority of those boards and grabbing 29 of them is something special that only a few players have accomplished in modern basketball history. Not to mention scoring 20 points, a few blocks n steals while only being a 22 year old sophomore. Sure sounds opportunistic to me . . . NOT!!!

He had a great game. It was a solid accomplishment. He did something that no Magic player had ever done before. Now tell me if he is better than Shaq or Dwight. If you don't think that rebounding has to do with opportunity, then you are lying to yourself. There is a reason, Dwight never had that many rebounds and it has nothing to do with positioning or who is the better rebounder.

KingRobb02 wrote:

BadMofoPimp wrote:
So, basically, what you are saying is that Vucevic didn't accomplish much. Heck, he only accompished a game only 7 other players in the history of the NBA ever accomplished, had a better rebounding game than Shaq or Dwight while completing this game against the reigning NBA Champions while playing head to head against an Multiple Time All-Star who is still on top of his game. Sure, you are not reaching bro. Accept the facts that what Vucevic did was not opportunistic, but he earned the vast majority of those boards and grabbing 29 of them is something special that only a few players have accomplished in modern basketball history. Not to mention scoring 20 points, a few blocks n steals while only being a 22 year old sophomore. Sure sounds opportunistic to me . . . NOT!!!

He had a great game. It was a solid accomplishment. He did something that no Magic player had ever done before. Now tell me if he is better than Shaq or Dwight. If you don't think that rebounding has to do with opportunity, then you are lying to yourself. There is a reason, Dwight never had that many rebounds and it has nothing to do with positioning or who is the better rebounder.

He is not better than Dwight or Shaq, but he accomplished something great. And, there is nothing opportunistic about grabbing 11 offensive boards as players routinely have to fight thru multiple defensive players to grab offensive boards. And, if rebounds is all about opportunity, then there should be many players from each and every team having 20 plus board nights if it is so easy to have an opportunity to do so.

By the Way, the Heat shot a Respectable 47% from the Floor in this game, so the opportunities were less than normal.

KingRobb, I just reread the entire thread, and did not see one post that said Vuc was better than Dwight or Shaq.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Unless you're considering the "Dwight Who?" posts as a direct comparison.

KingRobb02 wrote:He had a great game. It was a solid accomplishment. He did something that no Magic player had ever done before. Now tell me if he is better than Shaq or Dwight. If you don't think that rebounding has to do with opportunity, then you are lying to yourself. There is a reason, Dwight never had that many rebounds and it has nothing to do with positioning or who is the better rebounder.

So your reasoning for downplaying it is because he is not Shaq or Dwight.

I was scouring the depths of the internet, and found this eerily familiar NBA Newsgroup Post dated 12/30/1990.

KingRobb90 wrote:Can we please not go overboard here? He's good for what he is, and I'm happy he had a great game, but let's leave Maravich, Stockton, and the historical significance out of this. Skiles is an above average point guard that we didn't expect anything from and now that he is beating expectations we have to pretend that 11/7 guys don't grow on trees.

He had a great game. It was a solid accomplishment. He did something that no Magic player had ever done before. Now tell me if he is better than Maravich or Stockton. If you don't think that assists have to do with opportunity, then you are lying to yourself. There is a reason Stockton never had that many assists and it has nothing to do with skill or who is the better passer.

LOL.

Rick Rolled wrote:I was scouring the depths of the internet, and found this eerily familiar NBA Newsgroup Post dated 12/30/1990.

KingRobb90 wrote:Can we please not go overboard here? He's good for what he is, and I'm happy he had a great game, but let's leave Maravich, Stockton, and the historical significance out of this. Skiles is an above average point guard that we didn't expect anything from and now that he is beating expectations we have to pretend that 11/7 guys don't grow on trees.

He had a great game. It was a solid accomplishment. He did something that no Magic player had ever done before. Now tell me if he is better than Maravich or Stockton. If you don't think that assists have to do with opportunity, then you are lying to yourself. There is a reason Stockton never had that many assists and it has nothing to do with skill or who is the better passer.

OrlandO wrote:

Rick Rolled wrote:I was scouring the depths of the internet, and found this eerily familiar NBA Newsgroup Post dated 12/30/1990.

KingRobb90 wrote:Can we please not go overboard here? He's good for what he is, and I'm happy he had a great game, but let's leave Maravich, Stockton, and the historical significance out of this. Skiles is an above average point guard that we didn't expect anything from and now that he is beating expectations we have to pretend that 11/7 guys don't grow on trees.

He had a great game. It was a solid accomplishment. He did something that no Magic player had ever done before. Now tell me if he is better than Maravich or Stockton. If you don't think that assists have to do with opportunity, then you are lying to yourself. There is a reason Stockton never had that many assists and it has nothing to do with skill or who is the better passer.

So KingRobb is one of those multiple accounts spambots?

KingRobb02 wrote:

Tarot Magician wrote:

walah123 wrote:One lucky rebounding night for vucevic and you are hyping him up as better than howard?

Hahaha. So funny. Vucevic is nothing more than Darko Milicic part 2.

You guys traded howard for darko milicic plus peanuts. Hahaha.

You're right in a way, maybe Vucevic's talent ceiling is Darko.

That being said, if Darko had mental toughness and brought a consistently high effort level, he would have been a really good player in the league. Vucevic has been displaying a strong work ethic and willingness to learn. And this is after Doug Collins had sent him to oblivion.

Rebounding is all effort and positioning. Nobody can passively collect 29 rebounds. Luck is shooting 12/12 off long jumpers.

I disagree. Shooting is a skill you either have or you don't. If a guy can make 12 shots in a row he does it because of skill. 12 half court heaves in a row is a different story. With rebounding, the "luck" comes in the fact that you have 11 other potential outcomes when a shot goes up (9 other rebounder, out of bounds, or points being scored). The skill is in positioning and guess which way the ball will come off the rim, but it's lucky that the Heat had no one challenging for those boards. Do you think Vucevic gets to 20 rebounds if Dwight Howard and Kenneth Faried are on the court?

BadMofoPimp wrote:

KingRobb02 wrote:

BadMofoPimp wrote:
So, basically, what you are saying is that Vucevic didn't accomplish much. Heck, he only accompished a game only 7 other players in the history of the NBA ever accomplished, had a better rebounding game than Shaq or Dwight while completing this game against the reigning NBA Champions while playing head to head against an Multiple Time All-Star who is still on top of his game. Sure, you are not reaching bro. Accept the facts that what Vucevic did was not opportunistic, but he earned the vast majority of those boards and grabbing 29 of them is something special that only a few players have accomplished in modern basketball history. Not to mention scoring 20 points, a few blocks n steals while only being a 22 year old sophomore. Sure sounds opportunistic to me . . . NOT!!!

He had a great game. It was a solid accomplishment. He did something that no Magic player had ever done before. Now tell me if he is better than Shaq or Dwight. If you don't think that rebounding has to do with opportunity, then you are lying to yourself. There is a reason, Dwight never had that many rebounds and it has nothing to do with positioning or who is the better rebounder.

He is not better than Dwight or Shaq, but he accomplished something great. And, there is nothing opportunistic about grabbing 11 offensive boards as players routinely have to fight thru multiple defensive players to grab offensive boards. And, if rebounds is all about opportunity, then there should be many players from each and every team having 20 plus board nights if it is so easy to have an opportunity to do so.

By the Way, the Heat shot a Respectable 47% from the Floor in this game, so the opportunities were less than normal.

Can you grab a rebound without a missed shot? Why do you guys treat opportunity like it's a bad thing? What's wrong with saying someone took advantage of opportunities? This guy grabbed ~40% of all available rebounds (including the astounding 50% of defensive rebounds) when he was on the court. All I was saying is that rebounding is more luck based than shots going in because it is more reliant on another player doing something. Wasn't talking about Vucevic's game specifically, just in general.

Rebounding is not just Positioning, Guessing, and Luck. Two huge factors you left out are Boxing Out (Leveraging Strength) & Timing. Sure the way the ball bounces plays a big role so a good portion of rebounds can be attributed to luck, but the three skills initially listed paints a picture of Vuc standing in the right position, unopposed, and extending his hands for the 29 boards he ripped down.

grayson11 wrote:Rebounding is not just Positioning, Guessing, and Luck. Two huge factors you left out are Boxing Out (Leveraging Strength) & Timing. Sure the way the ball bounces plays a big role so a good portion of rebounds can be attributed to luck, but the three skills initially listed paints a picture of Vuc standing in the right position, unopposed, and extending his hands for the 29 boards he ripped down.

Yeah, you're right that it takes a lot to pull down a rebound. I'm just saying that it can't happen without a missed shot. Is anyone disputing that?

I am a little late here but that was a great performance by Nik Vucevic.

It was nice to see one of Shaq's records go down too.

KingRobb02 wrote:

grayson11 wrote:Rebounding is not just Positioning, Guessing, and Luck. Two huge factors you left out are Boxing Out (Leveraging Strength) & Timing. Sure the way the ball bounces plays a big role so a good portion of rebounds can be attributed to luck, but the three skills initially listed paints a picture of Vuc standing in the right position, unopposed, and extending his hands for the 29 boards he ripped down.

Yeah, you're right that it takes a lot to pull down a rebound. I'm just saying that it can't happen without a missed shot. Is anyone disputing that?

Agree, no one can dispute that.

Imagine a game with a FG% of 100% from both sides: 0 rebounds right down the box score...

KingRobb02 wrote:Yeah, you're right that it takes a lot to pull down a rebound. I'm just saying that it can't happen without a missed shot. Is anyone disputing that?

FYI. Both the Magic and the Heat made 47% of their shots which is above their season averages and above the league average. Thus, that makes it even less rebounds for them to have.

And, to further my point, Vucevic had 29 Rebounds while the Entire Miami Heat had 33 Rebounds.

It is not all luck and opportunity. Vucevic almost outrebounded the entire Miami Heat. This isn't a game of luck and opportunity. But, only opportunity for those that work hard enough to seize it.

Hey KingRobb, if Rebounding is all about luck and opportunity, then why are only 10 players in the entire NBA averaging 10 Rebounds or more per game?

Rodman was a lucky guy


Beside the bizarre image he was a rebound master

If Vucevic has performances like this at 22 years old, he'll be a rebound specialist at 24. He has loooooong arms.