We are divided, our competition is united. Why?

[mhectorgato]

tbh, I think Philly and Boston have more hardcore and knowledgable fans. Orlando is very transient so we get people who are baseball and football fans and thus not very knowledgable about the NBA. Rarely do you find anyone born and raised in Florida least of all Orlando so there will always be this disconnect.

You know those people that have been in Florida for like 15 years but pretend they're still "from" a bigger city.
: "I'm from New York yo." and all they do is talk it up, about how great it is, and you wanna be like, "So go back..." I think we have alot of those types of fans.

Once again ... the implication here is that if you are not for the tank, you're NOT hardcore and you're NOT knowledgeable.

I do agree about the transient nature of the population effects the team's support.

[thelead]

I guess you could say that I value this pick over anything else, while you value other aspects (development, free agents) more. This is truly where I believe the argument stems from. Pro-tankers believe the single most important thing to this rebuild is drafting a star. Anti-tankers believe that developing our current players, adding good but not great talent through the draft (obviously you would still want great if you could find it), and signing free agents will get us back to where we need to be.

So if in 3 years we find out we got Chris Kaman and not D12 ... what then? We missed out on the "single most important thing". This is why people keep repeating "for how long to do we keep tanking".

Not everyone (besides tankers and Dickie V -- remember how he criticized us for taking D12?) is considering the top 5 a lock to be THAT guy you steadfastly presume him to be.

Yeah, unfortunately that's how the NBA works IMO. If you don't get that star, you're not going to contend. So, if the draft pick is a bust (regardless of it being the 1st or 5th), it will set this franchise back. Would I consider tanking a viable option next year? No, because we'll have cap space and the 2015 free agent market looks better (not great but good). If we strike out in free agency (and our pick is a bust), we'll probably have to make some major decisions moving forward.

Really has nothing to do with the convo:

Spoiler:

Obviously things have to be flexible which is why I appreciate Hennigan's approach. He only sign's Maxiell and Price following a dreadful year to ensure that we'll get a good lotto pick while maintaining salary cap flexibility. The worst thing we could do is rush the rebuild (ala Otis). Had Otis traded TMac for younger players and slowly developed the team, we would have been able to draft the likes of Deron Williams and CP3. Hennigan is not falling into that trap. I guess you don't have to root for your team to lose but Hennigan really wasn't looking to make huge win gains this year with his moves and lack of discussion on the matter. The silence is deafening. There was never a mention of playoffs or even making that a goal. I bet they'll start talking about it next year though.

[mhectorgato]

Really has nothing to do with the convo:

Spoiler:

Obviously things have to be flexible which is why I appreciate Hennigan's approach. He only sign's Maxiell and Price following a dreadful year to ensure that we'll get a good lotto pick while maintaining salary cap flexibility. The worst thing we could do is rush the rebuild (ala Otis). Had Otis traded TMac for younger players and slowly developed the team, we would have been able to draft the likes of Deron Williams and CP3. Hennigan is not falling into that trap. I guess you don't have to root for your team to lose but Hennigan really wasn't looking to make huge win gains this year with his moves and lack of discussion on the matter. The silence is deafening. There was never a mention of playoffs or even making that a goal. I bet they'll start talking about it next year though.

Spoiler:

I agree that the playoffs wasn't a goal. I agree Henny has done a good job to build "the right way". I agree wanted more experience for the younger guys.

But we could have also gotten Darko (oh wait we did ) Felton, Marvin Williams, Livingston, Gordon, Adam Morrison, Shelden Williams, etc.

Could is the key word. There are no guarantees in the draft - so to throw a season for what could be a average player is untenable for me.

[Blue_and_Whte]

This is the mind boggling part to me.

A bad 22 win team with your choice of Wiggins, Embiid or Parker for the next SEVEN (guaranteed) years

OR

A bad 27 win team with your choice of Vonleh, Gordon, or Saric

The choice seems SO obvious. Then again, I wonder if antitankers even actively watch college basketball enough to observe the distinct levels/tiers of talent.

You're certainly not the only one to express this narrow acceptance of other's opinions. A stance like this is passive aggressive and implies that if one doesn't see it your way, they are:

1) wrong
2) idiot
3) stupid
4) narrow-sighted
5) don't want long term success
6) aren't hard-core fans
etc..

What I can't grasp -- not sure if it's generational or an upbringing or nature/nurture -- to me is that many tankers can't even begin to accept there are alternative paths/reasons/ways/etc to their train of thought.

I can't speak to most anti-tankers - but I can see the thought process and logic behind the tanking process. I don't deny that there's at least a chance it's happening in ORL, well not with Davor (sic) himself It just doesn't resonate with me the same way it does with you and others.

This, I think, has been the cause of the great board-wide bickering that makes this environment different than years past. It's as if this mentality is permeating the board: "if you don't see it our way, then you're an idiot because it's obvious we are tanking and any of the top 5 players is an absolute lock to be a franchise player".

This is why things haven't changed since I took a self-imposed hiatus - this "If you are not with us you are against us" mentality still runs the board --- forget the fact that we are all on the same side, rooting for the Magic. Look at the melt down in the Bklyn thread, the vent thread and now this one.

At least try to open your mind to the fact that your way is not the only way, or may not be the right way. You don't have you change your mind, just at least try to open your mind. No need to be so dismissive to other ways of thinking.

This is, what I thought at least, to be a discussion board, not a soap box or a pulpit to preach a narrow-focused dogmatic message.

While I do find wanting to win this late in the season mind boggling (and yes, I guess you could say that I'm just replacing "idiotic" or "narrow-sighted" for "mind boggling in a passive aggressive manor, although you know I try to keep everything a civil and respectful as possible), I do actually view the draft pick as one of many things that need to happen before we get back to where we were (a championship level team).

I guess you could say that I value this pick over anything else, while you value other aspects (development, free agents) more. This is truly where I believe the argument stems from. Pro-tankers believe the single most important thing to this rebuild is drafting a star. Anti-tankers believe that developing our current players, adding good but not great talent through the draft (obviously you would still want great if you could find it), and signing free agents will get us back to where we need to be.

Am I getting close as to why we (the entire board, not us specifically) are arguing so much about this topic?

The issue imo is that each side thinks they have it figured out and they think the other side believes their way is the ONLY and thats not the case. I think the primary difference is that pro tankers believe that at this point in the rebuild process we should land as high of a draft pick as possible which gets translated by anti tankers as "You don't rebuild only through the draft." and vice versa.

It's definately a combination as you stated above but there is a time and a place for each process to happen. This free agent class sucks unless Bron and Bosh opt out and imo nobody is worth wasting cap space on so I'm all for getting a high pick.

[AdamTheGreek]

I just want to know why Hennigan hasn't told Vaughn to bench Nelson and Afflalo yet... we benched our vets late last season, why not this season? On top of that, we are bringing Dipo and Harris off the bench and playing them below their average minutes. Doesn't make much sense to me.

I actually think giving Oladipo and Harris more minutes would improve our chances of winning.

You are correct. That's why Vic and Tobias haven't been getting much playing time.

Jameer plays little to no defense. Afflalo was struggling mightily since returning from his injury (until his Wednesday game).

I don't like tanking, but I understand why you do it.
There will be no more tanking next season. Jacque will be expected to win over 30 next year, and make a strong run to reach the playoffs. The locker room needs it, but more importantly the fan base needs to see winning. Last season we were 15th in the league in attendance which is fantastic for how bad we were. This season we're currently 24th in attendance and it would only get worse next season if our draft picks are duds and we're tanking once more.
So Hennigan and gang need to do a good job with their 2 lottery picks.


Also, Weisbrod traded McGrady. Not Otis. And I'm one of the few people who loved the deal.

[ChosenSavior]

I just want to know why Hennigan hasn't told Vaughn to bench Nelson and Afflalo yet... we benched our vets late last season, why not this season? On top of that, we are bringing Dipo and Harris off the bench and playing them below their average minutes. Doesn't make much sense to me.

I actually think giving Oladipo and Harris more minutes would improve our chances of winning.

You are correct. That's why Vic and Tobias haven't been getting much playing time.

Jameer plays little to no defense. Afflalo was struggling mightily since returning from his injury (until his Wednesday game).

I don't like tanking, but I understand why you do it.
There will be no more tanking next season. Jacque will be expected to win over 30 next year, and make a strong run to reach the playoffs. The locker room needs it, but more importantly the fan base needs to see winning. Last season we were 15th in the league in attendance which is fantastic for how bad we were. This season we're currently 24th in attendance and it would only get worse next season if our draft picks are duds and we're tanking once more.
So Hennigan and gang need to do a good job with their 2 lottery picks.


Also, Weisbrod traded McGrady. Not Otis. And I'm one of the few people who loved the deal.

I feel the same way. The crowds at the Amway Center seem to get smaller and smaller this season unless we are playing a marquee opponent/player. I know you are around the team quite a bit now so I wanted to ask you if this is just your gut feeling or if you are getting that vibe directly with the front office staff with the Magic?

Appreciate the videos you post bro by the way.

[AdamTheGreek]

Thanks.

Just a vibe myself and other media guys are getting. The same feeling I get that I believe Oladipo will be moved back to an off-the-guard position once the Magic draft a PG.

The front office does a great job of keeping everything close to the vest.

[Eltonator]

Im torn on this issue and I'll be glad when this season over so I don't have to deal with it. Ive been a anti tanker most of the year. The thing is I just want the young guys to play well. If they play well and we win then thats great for there development. If we lose great for our draft place. Im not mad either way. While tankers are furious when we win.. I can't get behind hoping dipo, Harris and Vuc play bad. Just can't do it. Even AA I don't want to play bad cause I feel he will be a big part in a possible playoff push next year. Development over tanking always. Is it imposible that we have a solid core already? Is it possible that Oladipo could develop into a star better than any prospect in this draft. I don't think it's impossible. There no Lebron, Melo Wade that I see. How good can Harris and Vuc be? These guys are young. In this draft I think Henny can find something good if we fall a couple spots. And thats still a IF. Its still a lottery folks. What if we lose out get the number 3 back from Boston and then the number 4 gets the number 1 pick.. Luck of the lottery. Now to the topic our competition is more united cause they need the tank more. Philly and the Bucks are rock bottom. We gotta understand that those are unbeatable tanks. Seriously look at our roster compared to the top tankers. We are just better, honestly the reason we are even at 4th worse is cause of the injuries we had. Next year if wiggins is so good he is winning more games for the bucks their fans will have similar division cause some are gonna want one more tank... Now like I said in the beginning Im torn on this issue because on the other hand I hate when we win games on the back of the vets.I love Jameer, he is one of my fav players ever but I'd rather not see him winning games for us this year. If we were in playoff mode yes but not during development phase. At the same time if we bench all the vets for no reason what do the young guys think? Im sure they hear all the tank talk and Henny and JV have to make sure they know there is no tanking going on. You don't want that kinda fee in the lockeroom. You don't want to kill their confidence with "We arn't good enough so we are only playing so we can't draft someone who can play" Not good for lockeroom. Are these wins pointless? In the grand scheme maybe. I can't lie, I'd be pretty hurt if we end up picking 8th or something. We probably should lose out, but I ask you all how do we lose out when we have good players that play hard. Should we tell them to stop playing hard? Bench them? Cause if we bench them they will know why and they will not be happy about it... I'll be so glad when the season is over lol

just be glad we have a chance to lock up the 3rd lottery spot more easier than boston becuase the rest of our games are against playoff teams trying to get high in the seeds. plus boston is facing philly in their final scheduled games so they most likely to win that game. if everything goes right we will be in good position.

[ChosenSavior]

Thanks.

Just a vibe myself and other media guys are getting. The same feeling I get that I believe Oladipo will be moved back to an off-the-guard position once the Magic draft a PG.

The front office does a great job of keeping everything close to the vest.

Cool. Appreciate you answering my question. Yeah I think the experiment of putting Oladipo at PG was strictly done to tighten his handle and learn how to be a play-maker so that he can be interchangeable on both guard spots.

Yeah I love how the front office operates. It's just like the Spurs.

[Reverse_Angle]

People hate NY/Bos fans around here. And trust me you guys can get quite annoying in our stands BUT I respect the passion your fans have for the game. I looked like the crazy guy when I cheered on the magic in the stands. I say "looked" because I just blend in now with the half asleep crowd because I don't want to look like the crazy guy. Our fans suck.

*Removed.*

Seriously? How old are you?

I just don't like it when people turn on an organization they belong to instead of doing something about it. That is more immature than saying **** or ***.

[ORLMagicGirl15]

Because it is a lottery and my cheering have no effect on whether my team win or lose, so I choose to cheer for a win.

I have no direct effect on the positioning of the picks.
I have no direct effect on the picking of the draft player.
I have no direct effect on choosing of any free agents.
I have no direct effect on the operation that goes on daily in the organization.

My only presence in this organization is showing up for games and cheering for my team. I rather not watch or pay for a game cheering for them to lose. You can be on any side you want but at the end of the day, we are all spectators. We don't have an effect on the outcome of the lottery.

[thelead]

*Removed.*

Seriously? How old are you?

I just don't like it when people turn on an organization they belong to instead of doing something about it. That is more immature than saying **** or ***.

When did I turn on the organization??? Have you been to a game lately? It's a bunch of corporate drinkers and random people that see the game as a social gathering more than anything else. Sorry if you don't agree but this is what I've seen over and over again as I go to games. Yeah, the NY and Boston fans are annoying at our home games but why do we even notice them? Because our "fans" (and I guess I should just say "those that attend the magic games") are so quiet and uninterested in the game that the Bos/NY fans stick out.

As long as the magic play basketball and not football, I don't see it changing very fast around here. It's the mentality of the south. Football is king. Then again, I'm of the opinion that most people "like" football because it's an excuse to drink and gamble, so there's that

[mhectorgato]

Because it is a lottery and my cheering have no effect on whether my team win or lose, so I choose to cheer for a win.

I have no direct effect on the positioning of the picks.
I have no direct effect on the picking of the draft player.
I have no direct effect on choosing of any free agents.
I have no direct effect on the operation that goes on daily in the organization.

My only presence in this organization is showing up for games and cheering for my team. I rather not watch or pay for a game cheering for them to lose. You can be on any side you want but at the end of the day, we are all spectators. We don't have an effect on the outcome of the lottery.

Yo go girl!!

Does making everyone else's life miserable in GT change the outcome of the game? Does having 100x more tank supporters change the outcome? Does have 10000x tankers increase our lottery chances?

Obviously this is not to say you have to agree 100% with every move, all being Stepford Fans if you will.

Just does complaining about ... the .... same ... exact ... thing ... for 4 or so months change anything?

[Blue_and_Whte]

tbh, I think Philly and Boston have more hardcore and knowledgable fans. Orlando is very transient so we get people who are baseball and football fans and thus not very knowledgable about the NBA. Rarely do you find anyone born and raised in Florida least of all Orlando so there will always be this disconnect.

You know those people that have been in Florida for like 15 years but pretend they're still "from" a bigger city.
: "I'm from New York yo." and all they do is talk it up, about how great it is, and you wanna be like, "So go back..." I think we have alot of those types of fans.

Once again ... the implication here is that if you are not for the tank, you're NOT hardcore and you're NOT knowledgeable.

I do agree about the transient nature of the population effects the team's support.

I disagree with you and let me explain why. My comment is talking more about our fan base as a whole and not so much isolated to people on realGM. It wasn't meant to say that ""if you are not for the tank, your not hard core and not knowledgable" I specifically said we have alot of people who are mainly baseball or football fans from other states and thus there is a disconnect from the team and the NBA as a whole so to say they aren't hard core fans or as knowledgable isn't far off.

Each side assumes the other side thinks their way is the ONLY way but of course thats not the case. "Pro-Tankers" believe that at this juncture of the rebuild process, landing a high draft pick would be more beneficial than working a weak free agent market. Unless Lebron or Bosh opt out, there really isn't anyone worth spending cap space on. Furthermore I think it's a little shortsighted to say that "anti tankers" are the only side who believes that developing the existing talent will improve the team. Assuming JV and Henny dont believe in developing our young guys, which is obviously not the case, then that process will happen naturally. Nobody in their right mind would be against developing our young talent.

Like you said, the reality is that all three methods will improve the team, my belief personally is that right now, drafting high is a good way to augment that process. I mean why not? We were going to be a bad team regardless so we might as well take advantage of a fairly strong draft class, at least at the top. imo "Anti Tankers" belief that you can contend for a title in todays NBA without an elite player (maybe 2) isn't supported by history outside of a couple of exceptions

[mhectorgato]

I disagree with you and let me explain why. My comment is talking more about our fan base as a whole and not so much isolated to people on realGM. It wasn't meant to say that ""if you are not for the tank, your not hard core and not knowledgable"

If I took it the wrong way, my bad .. but the phrasing lead me to that implication -- especially of the context of the post or two above your's, as well as the undercurrent of the entire season on the board.

Each side assumes the other side thinks their way is the ONLY way but of course thats not the case.

I can't speak to most anti-tankers - but I can see the thought process and logic behind the tanking process. I don't deny that there's at least a chance it's happening in ORL, well not with Davor (sic) himself It just doesn't resonate with me the same way it does with you and others.

imo "Anti Tankers" belief that you can contend for a title in todays NBA without an elite player (maybe 2) isn't supported by history outside of a couple of exceptions

That's not my belief. Quite a few others have also stated that they don't think this either.

[doct3r dr3]

Because it is a lottery and my cheering have no effect on whether my team win or lose, so I choose to cheer for a win.

I have no direct effect on the positioning of the picks.
I have no direct effect on the picking of the draft player.
I have no direct effect on choosing of any free agents.
I have no direct effect on the operation that goes on daily in the organization.

My only presence in this organization is showing up for games and cheering for my team. I rather not watch or pay for a game cheering for them to lose. You can be on any side you want but at the end of the day, we are all spectators. We don't have an effect on the outcome of the lottery.

Yo go girl!!

Does making everyone else's life miserable in GT change the outcome of the game? Does having 100x more tank supporters change the outcome? Does have 10000x tankers increase our lottery chances?

Obviously this is not to say you have to agree 100% with every move, a Stepford Wife if you will.

Just does complaining about ... the .... same ... exact ... thing ... for 4 or so months change anything?

It has no effect on the outcome in the end so...

...why cheer for the team to win?

...why watch sports at all?

...why hope for anything good in life?

[mhectorgato]

Because it is a lottery and my cheering have no effect on whether my team win or lose, so I choose to cheer for a win.

I have no direct effect on the positioning of the picks.
I have no direct effect on the picking of the draft player.
I have no direct effect on choosing of any free agents.
I have no direct effect on the operation that goes on daily in the organization.

My only presence in this organization is showing up for games and cheering for my team. I rather not watch or pay for a game cheering for them to lose. You can be on any side you want but at the end of the day, we are all spectators. We don't have an effect on the outcome of the lottery.

Yo go girl!!

Does making everyone else's life miserable in GT change the outcome of the game? Does having 100x more tank supporters change the outcome? Does have 10000x tankers increase our lottery chances?

Obviously this is not to say you have to agree 100% with every move, a Stepford Wife if you will.

Just does complaining about ... the .... same ... exact ... thing ... for 4 or so months change anything?

It has no effect on the outcome in the end so...

...why cheer for the team to win?

...why watch sports at all?

...why hope for anything good in life?

absurdum ad reductio much?

No one has said -- don't cheer for the team to win (well some have actually posted that)

No one has said -- don't watch sports at all.

No one has said -- don't hope for good in life.

****

An illustration --- You've got a buddy who broke up with his girl. Next time you see him he vents and vents. So you figure, good get it out of your system. Then next time, he does exactly the same. And again and again and again.

So 2 months go by and he still brings up the same topic each time and is bitter each time.

You have something good happen to you, so he relates it his ex and tries to tell how bad this is. Next time he calls and you see his Caller ID ....

[OrlandO]

It was different when we had a full season ahead of us, but now the season is nearly over... we're a 23-win team and will likely end up with the 3rd or 4th worst record. Maybe it's time we put the anti-tanker vs pro-tanker thing to rest. We won't be tanking next year, so people on both sides of the argument are getting their panties in a bunch over nothing at this point.

[doct3r dr3]

Yo go girl!!

Does making everyone else's life miserable in GT change the outcome of the game? Does having 100x more tank supporters change the outcome? Does have 10000x tankers increase our lottery chances?

Obviously this is not to say you have to agree 100% with every move, a Stepford Wife if you will.

Just does complaining about ... the .... same ... exact ... thing ... for 4 or so months change anything?

It has no effect on the outcome in the end so...

...why cheer for the team to win?

...why watch sports at all?

...why hope for anything good in life?

absurdum ad reductio much?

No one has said -- don't cheer for the team to win (well some have actually posted that)

No one has said -- don't watch sports at all.

No one has said -- don't hope for good in life.

****

An illustration --- You've got a buddy who broke up with his girl. Next time you see him he vents and vents. So you figure, good get it out of your system. Then next time, he does exactly the same. And again and again and again.

So 2 months go by and he still brings up the same topic each time and is bitter each time.

You have something good happen to you, so he relates it his ex and tries to tell how bad this is. Next time he calls and you see his Caller ID ....

My point is that we all know that sports and our cheers for them are ultimately meaningless. What relevance does the fact of the futility of our cheering have to a discussion of the logic of pro-tanking?

[mhectorgato]

The season is nearly over... we're a 23-win team and will likely end up with the 3rd or 4th worst record. Maybe it's time we put the anti-tanker vs pro-tanker thing to rest. We won't be tanking next year, so people on both sides of the argument are getting their panties in a bunch over nothing at this point.

That's what I said about 2, if not 3 months, ago.

What's been accomplished in that time? How has the discussion changed since 1/2 way through the season, other than time specific? What new points are being brought up (other than FF's post)?