2014 Prospects Full Game Links (A. GORDON/E. PAYTON)

[OrlandO]

Why would you only look at our draft history when hennigan was not the GM with all those picks...

Says the guy with a hennigan avatar. Are we really not getting the point about bias yet? No, henny was not the gm all that time, nor was anyone else for that matter. It's about the potential of getting a bust in that range, and how satisfied everyone is to just hand over the reigns to elf. And worse, play our 2nd overall pick and sg out of position until he is eventually ready, if at all.

I only have henny as my avatar because A) I thought his cheesy grin was hilarious when we first hired him, B) this is a magic forum so I wanted to keep it magic-related, C) I'm too lazy to change it after the novelty wore off, especially since I have avatars disabled from view and don't even see it myself. Btw, I had duhon making a funny face as an avatar a few years back and I hated his play here. So no, it is not bias. The reason why I question your point is because it seems absurdly flawed with the limitations you've applied.

I understand you want to show that it gets tougher to find a really good player as the draft reaches the mid point of the first round and beyond, but the way you've presented it makes it seem hopeless. It's not, there are good players picked throughout the first round every year. It all depends on the GM/Scouts ability to find talent and who is available. Do you like any of the young players Hennigan has brought in these past couple of years (relative to their draft position)? All the top rated PGs in this year's draft were available to us and Hennigan decided Payton was the best way to go. We'll see if it plays out that way, but at least our GM got his choice.

What was the starting backcourt in the first summer league game? What was the starting backcourt in the final summer league game? Can you say with certainty Payton won't start at the beginning of the season or soon after? Did Westbrook, D-Will or Rubio, all picked much higher than Payton, start on day 1 of their rookie seasons? It is not uncommon for good PGs to get eased into the starting lineup. And I don't see the big deal of playing oladipo out of position in the short term if the team feels Payton should come off the bench for a bit. Dipo is going to have the ball in his hands a lot regardless of position, and there are benefits to him getting some starting pg experience even if he is to be our sg in the future.

[spinedoc]

Look, the only reason I mentioned the avatars was because I have one who has elf telling me how elite he's looked, and you with henny, picking out the obscure point that he has nothing to do with the last 20 years and will be different. I thought it seemed very biased with regard to your point of view, im not trying to mock you. My main objection is I got a little piled on for being skeptical, even after I conceded that I may be wrong, and even hoped so. I didn't appreciate the insinuation that I was ignorant to the fact of elf's greatness because I didn't look at all the videos, as it was so obviously clear. I just wanted to remind people that history says differently. That's all, lets all hope everything works out then. I've got more studying to do for my fantasy football draft anyway. Peace.

[MagicStarwipe]

If you don't watch the games your opinion automatically holds less weight than someone who does. It's not like I've been following Payton since his birth. I have him as an avatar partly because I loved what I saw out of him in summer league, and partly because I think he has cool hair lol.

[Bensational]

I didn't see that game yet, but look at the matchup with the Celtics. Smart was a nice contrast, much more aggressive and vision. Maybe it was because of Smart's defense, but I didn't see much from Payton. And prior to that, mostly lob passes really. I haven't seen him drive and kick like a pg should do. I'm not worried about his outside shot, that will come, but I don't know if he can be a floor general. Mostly an athletic combo guard with some skills and weaknesses. I will say this though, he could be a very nice complement to dipo. Both with handles that can feed off one another. Theyboth just need to work on their outside shot if they are going to be effective together.

Elf's first major hurdle will be developing consistent confidence on the court. In some of those summer league games he looked timid when pressured on the ball, and he picked up his dribble quite often. Other times, he looked like he could just go where he wanted at any time. Once he's that confident every game, then everything else will come into play.

I don't mind that he didn't do many drive and kicks because, frankly, I hate them. After watching Jameer show that was the only pass he was capable of making for the past 7 years, I'm sick of it. I loved that Elf was finding guys either right under the basket or in close range for high % shots, because that's smart basketball. He still made a few passes out to the perimeter to find open guys, but for the most part he used his silky smooth handles to get in near the top of the key, draw an extra defender and then find the open man which that created.

His finish at the rim is a bit soft, but i think that plays into confidence, too. He's got the athleticism to really get up (like the lightning quick tomahawk dunk he sprung up out of nowhere for -and missed, lol), and once defenses become hesitant because they know he's a threat to find an open man, it will open up better looks for him.

I honestly feel that Elf is a star in the making, and that his ability to find open guys and make those around him better will be the heart of what takes this team to the next level.

But you're totally entitled to disagree, and I understand your reservations, so that's cool.

[spinedoc]

Thanks Ben, I can always count on you to make a rational, intelligent, and balanced response. In my first post on this, I remarked how timid he looked as well. I haven't seen the emerging floor general that I've been hearing about. He has athleticism in spades though. I do admit that I'm a little bitter because I don't see Henny's vision yet. I of course would have done things differently, but we need to give him a proper amount of time as well. We owe him as much. Rebuilding makes people a bit snarky, lol. Some totally in love with every move and player, and others totally against. I'm still in the skeptical middle.

[PANDEMONEUM]

i like EP,
but i dont see elite
idk how anyone can say that just from his college and summer league play

so far, it looks like he should have good D, good assist/turnover ratio
thats a very good start
he needs to get his FT% at 75+
and find a shot, that works for him. either the 3, or pull up 10footer
the more his J imporves, the better a player he can be

im not worried about his D or his assist/turnover #s, they should be above average

(maybe turnovers will b high this and next year, but its a young team still figuring things out)

*
i was liking the "henny plan"
up until these FA signings of Ben and Frye
imo, its a waste of $, time and development for the youngs

if Elfird and Gordon work out, the team was ready to start making steps
imo, the only things left are,
a Defensive big, either at C or PF. someone that can block shots and have alters
( i mean a big, 6'10 or so, with a little beef and mean streak )
and 3pt shooters.

payton
oladipo - fournier
tobias - harkless
gordon
vucevic

[Tayswagzzz]

i like EP,
but i dont see elite
idk how anyone can say that just from his college and summer league play

so far, it looks like he should have good D, good assist/turnover ratio
thats a very good start
he needs to get his FT% at 75+
and find a shot, that works for him. either the 3, or pull up 10footer
the more his J imporves, the better a player he can be

im not worried about his D or his assist/turnover #s, they should be above average

(maybe turnovers will b high this and next year, but its a young team still figuring things out)

*
i was liking the "henny plan"
up until these FA signings of Ben and Frye
imo, its a waste of $, time and development for the youngs

if Elfird and Gordon work out, the team was ready to start making steps
imo, the only things left are,
a Defensive big, either at C or PF. someone that can block shots and have alters
( i mean a big, 6'10 or so, with a little beef and mean streak )
and 3pt shooters.

payton
oladipo - fournier
tobias - harkless
gordon
vucevic

Thanks for the post.

I feel like Ben Gordon was brought in as a guy who Hennigan thinks can gain value if he plays well and use as a possible future trade chip..though I would be curious to pick his brain on his reasoning for signing him.

Frye I believe was brought in to be a great mentor to our young guys, provide a unique offensive skillset that we lack and help spread our offense, and overall I think him being on a 4 year deal signifies he's part of our future and that's going to allow him to really bond with our young guys.

As always with any rookies, give it about 2 years before you judge.

[basketballRob]

i like EP,
but i dont see elite
idk how anyone can say that just from his college and summer league play

so far, it looks like he should have good D, good assist/turnover ratio
thats a very good start
he needs to get his FT% at 75+
and find a shot, that works for him. either the 3, or pull up 10footer
the more his J imporves, the better a player he can be

im not worried about his D or his assist/turnover #s, they should be above average

(maybe turnovers will b high this and next year, but its a young team still figuring things out)

*
i was liking the "henny plan"
up until these FA signings of Ben and Frye
imo, its a waste of $, time and development for the youngs

if Elfird and Gordon work out, the team was ready to start making steps
imo, the only things left are,
a Defensive big, either at C or PF. someone that can block shots and have alters
( i mean a big, 6'10 or so, with a little beef and mean streak )
and 3pt shooters.

payton
oladipo - fournier
tobias - harkless
gordon
vucevic

Ever heard of Kyle O'Quinn? 250 lbs 7'4 3/4" wingspan 11 rebs 2.7 blks 1.2 stls per 36 mpg and he has a short fuse.

[Orlwillbeback]

Look, the only reason I mentioned the avatars was because I have one who has elf telling me how elite he's looked, and you with henny, picking out the obscure point that he has nothing to do with the last 20 years and will be different. I thought it seemed very biased with regard to your point of view, im not trying to mock you. My main objection is I got a little piled on for being skeptical, even after I conceded that I may be wrong, and even hoped so. I didn't appreciate the insinuation that I was ignorant to the fact of elf's greatness because I didn't look at all the videos, as it was so obviously clear. I just wanted to remind people that history says differently. That's all, lets all hope everything works out then. I've got more studying to do for my fantasy football draft anyway. Peace.

spine, how much have you watched elf?

[Orlwillbeback]

i like EP,
but i dont see elite
idk how anyone can say that just from his college and summer league play

so far, it looks like he should have good D, good assist/turnover ratio
thats a very good start
he needs to get his FT% at 75+
and find a shot, that works for him. either the 3, or pull up 10footer
the more his J imporves, the better a player he can be

im not worried about his D or his assist/turnover #s, they should be above average

(maybe turnovers will b high this and next year, but its a young team still figuring things out)

*
i was liking the "henny plan"
up until these FA signings of Ben and Frye
imo, its a waste of $, time and development for the youngs

if Elfird and Gordon work out, the team was ready to start making steps
imo, the only things left are,
a Defensive big, either at C or PF. someone that can block shots and have alters
( i mean a big, 6'10 or so, with a little beef and mean streak )
and 3pt shooters.

payton
oladipo - fournier
tobias - harkless
gordon
vucevic

the thing about our fa singings and how they differ from the bucks is that the frye singing should actually help us. I think the jury is still out on gordon but i think your vets are for the most part in the way of your youngs, so that's why i think you view it that way.

[spinedoc]

Look, the only reason I mentioned the avatars was because I have one who has elf telling me how elite he's looked, and you with henny, picking out the obscure point that he has nothing to do with the last 20 years and will be different. I thought it seemed very biased with regard to your point of view, im not trying to mock you. My main objection is I got a little piled on for being skeptical, even after I conceded that I may be wrong, and even hoped so. I didn't appreciate the insinuation that I was ignorant to the fact of elf's greatness because I didn't look at all the videos, as it was so obviously clear. I just wanted to remind people that history says differently. That's all, lets all hope everything works out then. I've got more studying to do for my fantasy football draft anyway. Peace.

spine, how much have you watched elf?

I've seen the majority of two SL games, the Grizz and Celtics. I have also watched youtube compilation videos before the draft, along with smart, exum, and lavine. I figured we'd get one of the top four pgs. Discounting the deferred passes where the other guy jacks up a shot, and elf didn't create anything. Also the numerous lob passes, which goes to show more athleticism on the parts of Gordon and Dipo, there were only a handful of true visionary pg passes. One real nice kick out to an open shooter, can't remember who, and a couple nice bounce passes to marble. Other than that, nothing really sticks out in my mind. What I do remember though is the way he drives to the hoop. He seems to make his mind up regardless of how the play unfolds, and goes to the basket anyway. The good news is that because of his length, he gets fouled a lot. The bad, he's not a very good free throw shooter, and the trees in the nba are bigger and better than small school usa. I think he plays more like a sg mostly when he has the ball in his hands. But, like I said, I'll wait to see how he does in the regular season running set plays and a more controlled offense. His defense and transition game are very good however.

[Orlwillbeback]

Again, if you think he plays like a sg then you clearly havent watched him enough. He's as pure a pg as they come.

[spinedoc]

Again, if you think he plays like a sg then you clearly havent watched him enough. He's as pure a pg as they come.

Okay then, I'll keep watching.

[PANDEMONEUM]

i like EP,
but i dont see elite
idk how anyone can say that just from his college and summer league play

so far, it looks like he should have good D, good assist/turnover ratio
thats a very good start
he needs to get his FT% at 75+
and find a shot, that works for him. either the 3, or pull up 10footer
the more his J imporves, the better a player he can be

im not worried about his D or his assist/turnover #s, they should be above average

(maybe turnovers will b high this and next year, but its a young team still figuring things out)

*
i was liking the "henny plan"
up until these FA signings of Ben and Frye
imo, its a waste of $, time and development for the youngs

if Elfird and Gordon work out, the team was ready to start making steps
imo, the only things left are,
a Defensive big, either at C or PF. someone that can block shots and have alters
( i mean a big, 6'10 or so, with a little beef and mean streak )
and 3pt shooters.

payton
oladipo - fournier
tobias - harkless
gordon
vucevic

the thing about our fa singings and how they differ from the bucks is that the frye singing should actually help us. I think the jury is still out on gordon but i think your vets are for the most part in the way of your youngs, so that's why i think you view it that way.

the timing for the Bucks, is different than the Magic
Ben and Frye were signed after getting Payton, Fournier, Gordon
Bucks had Mayo, Delfino, Zaza......then got Jabari (and inglis and obryant)
then they signed/signing FAs, Marshall and Bayless
Bucks dont have as many young starters that they are SURE about as the Magic do

i see what you are saying, but the timing of the signings are off
the Magic had the youngs first, then signed FAs
Bucks had some vets, got Jabari, now trying to finish the roster with some FAs

now the Bucks are stuck with Mayo, Delfino, Zaza (and Bayless, who is only 25)
Delfino is cheap at 3.5, but Mayo and Zaza are over priced right now
how do we move them ? i have no idea

knight - walters - marshall
middleton
giannis - ingles
jabari
sanders - henson

not sure knight is a true PG, the other 2 are not starters
dont have a pure SG. middleton is more of a SF.
giannis and jabari are only 20yrs old. both are SFs
sanders is koukou. but a D guy.
henson, imo, is bench fodder. id move him before everyone figures that out

way more questions for Bucks

[Orlwillbeback]

i like EP,
but i dont see elite
idk how anyone can say that just from his college and summer league play

so far, it looks like he should have good D, good assist/turnover ratio
thats a very good start
he needs to get his FT% at 75+
and find a shot, that works for him. either the 3, or pull up 10footer
the more his J imporves, the better a player he can be

im not worried about his D or his assist/turnover #s, they should be above average

(maybe turnovers will b high this and next year, but its a young team still figuring things out)

*
i was liking the "henny plan"
up until these FA signings of Ben and Frye
imo, its a waste of $, time and development for the youngs

if Elfird and Gordon work out, the team was ready to start making steps
imo, the only things left are,
a Defensive big, either at C or PF. someone that can block shots and have alters
( i mean a big, 6'10 or so, with a little beef and mean streak )
and 3pt shooters.

payton
oladipo - fournier
tobias - harkless
gordon
vucevic

the thing about our fa singings and how they differ from the bucks is that the frye singing should actually help us. I think the jury is still out on gordon but i think your vets are for the most part in the way of your youngs, so that's why i think you view it that way.

the timing for the Bucks, is different than the Magic
Ben and Frye were signed after getting Payton, Fournier, Gordon
Bucks had Mayo, Delfino, Zaza......then got Jabari (and inglis and obryant)
then they signed/signing FAs, Marshall and Bayless
Bucks dont have as many young starters that they are SURE about as the Magic do

i see what you are saying, but the timing of the signings are off
the Magic had the youngs first, then signed FAs
Bucks had some vets, got Jabari, now trying to finish the roster with some FAs

now the Bucks are stuck with Mayo, Delfino, Zaza (and Bayless, who is only 25)
Delfino is cheap at 3.5, but Mayo and Zaza are over priced right now
how do we move them ? i have no idea

knight - walters - marshall
middleton
giannis - ingles
jabari
sanders - henson

not sure knight is a true PG, the other 2 are not starters
dont have a pure SG. middleton is more of a SF.
giannis and jabari are only 20yrs old. both are SFs
sanders is koukou. but a D guy.
henson, imo, is bench fodder. id move him before everyone figures that out

way more questions for Bucks

I can understand criticizing tge gordon signing but imo ridnour and frye were good signings. Did you really expect us to start aaron gordon this year at 18 years when we are clearly trying to win? Gordon can be a good player, but iam not comfortable giving him starters minutes yet. Frye is the perfect compliment to oladipo and payton and ridnour is a good back up. Do you really think a team of 21 year olds could succeed?

[tooler]

i see what you are saying, but the timing of the signings are off
the Magic had the youngs first, then signed FAs
Bucks had some vets, got Jabari, now trying to finish the roster with some FAs

I think the difference is found in your last sentence there. You're talking about finding "some guys" to fill a few holes in the roster. Before our FA signings, I was right there with you.

My theory is the Magic signed Frye and Gordon to be complementary shooters that fit into a cohesive system. They're part of a plan: put the ball in the hands of Payton, Oladipo, and Harris, then let the vets draw the defense or spot up while the young guys drive and cut. That directly leads to development for the young guys. You can't just throw a bunch of 20 year olds out there, sign a senior citizen to sit in the locker room and impart wisdom, and expect the young guys to figure it out by themselves.

Our vets don't get in the way either. They know they're not the focus of this offense or the future of the team. Like you said, the Bucks have dead weight veterans because your front office thought they wanted to make a playoff push last year. The Magic are in a more fortunate situation because they had a coherent long term plan.

Frye might be year too long but that's manageable. There's still a clear path to growth and development for the young guys who really matter.

[godkingleonidas]

Is there really only one PG?

[orlando1214]

Is there really only one PG?

No, we have Luke Ridnour as well, just for whatever reason there hasn't been an official announcement about it, so sites like ESPN won't add him to the roster yet. Plus expect Oladipo to spend time there as well.

That depth chart is weird anyways, so don't take it as anything official. Like they have Nicholson as a Center there, and O'Quinn at Power Forward, where it should be switched around. Although Kyle can play PF, but I suspect he'll be the back up Center mostly. Also, who knows who will be the starters. Right now it seems most people on here feel it will be Oladipo, Fournier, Harris, Frye, and Vuc to start the year off. Although that's just a guess and we'll just have to wait and see what JV decides. I'd say Oladipo and Vuc are the only two guaranteed starters, although I'd say Frye is very likely as well.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Is there really only one PG?

Hark over Harris? This board is going shut down.

Half way kidding, but yeah I think Harris is the starter at SF.

[MagicStarwipe]

There is also this game from Payton. No sound and only 1 camera angle, but still watchable. Payton hits 2 clutch 3's at the end.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yROsioqwCPg[/youtube]