Uncle Drew and the Frye Effect

[OrlandoNed]

This post seriously needs to reach 50+ And 1's

You're welcome.

[KillMonger]

I'm at work so will have to read it later

Man.........

[mhectorgato]

Agree or disagree with the conclusion, you gotta respect the effort.

[spinedoc]

The Suns' overall rebound rate wasn't negatively affected by Frye's presence (TRR: 44.5-->45.1; TRB%: 49.9-->50.2). The offensive rebounding rate did go down (12.1-->11.6), in part because of the decrease in offensive rebounding percentage (27.0-->25.9). But the team's shooting efficiency increased so much (eFG%: 49.2-->53.8) it overwhelmed whatever effect that might have on scoring, and the Suns scored far more per 100 possessions (104.9-->113.1).

On defense, Suns opponents attempted about one more field goal attempt off defensive rebounds per 100 possessions with Frye on the floor (21.5-->22.7), and they converted these attempts at a higher eFG% (46.5-->53.5), but that resulted in a negligible overall impact on their overall scoring output, in points per 100 possessions (106.8-->107.0). Frye's overall impact on offense seems to dramatically outweigh his overall impact on defense.

First of all, stats can be a funny thing. They're easily manipulated to strengthen any argument. I'm not against facts, those are something else entirely. What you've shown here is no more than a strong correlation between two things, and that's if I'm conceding that. You haven't shown causality at all. Sure, you have answered a couple of my questions, not all, but you've also now raised even more with your new set of numbers. Basketball is not a lab experiment where you can hold variables at a constant, or manipulate them to prove a theory. Its way too dynamic for you to be definitive about cause and effect. What did the bench consist of that could have skewed Frye's on the court and off numbers? What were the starting players effects on Frye? Did the pg there differ from the one we have here, and does that matter? Also, I can't prove a negative and insert some traditional pf's numbers into that model if they didn't have one on the roster themselves. See, all you've really shown me is that Frye was better playing with that Suns team rather than without, which that I would concede.

The approach of conceding defensive rebounds, and defending hard on the perimeter is an approach that the Miami Heat used successfully to win two titles.

I disagree with this. Yeah, they won two titles, but they also lost two titles because of the same thing. They were weak down low. Also, they just so happened to have the greatest player in the entire league on their team as well. Let's not think for a minute that Miami was great because of their stretch four offense. I'll take the Spurs approach any day. Duncan with Splitter and Diaw was the ticket, not Bosh and Haslem. One other thing I want to mention about the stretch four, you don't have to go all the way out to the three point line to create spacing. That mid-range game from your bigs is just as huge, and be close enough to contribute at the rim. The team that had this down the best was the Bad boys, with Laimbeer hitting that jumper. Then, they had Mahorn, Rodman, and Salley to do the dirty work down low. I believe we have that with Vuc now, all we need is his complement. The focus is wrong by Henny. What happened was he looked at his roster and noticed a lack of three point shooting, as a final scrambling touch he added over 12M with BG and Frye. And of course, brought back the hated stretch four for me in the process. I'm a huge Aaron Gordon fan now, lol.

[spinedoc]

Agree or disagree with the conclusion, you gotta respect the effort.

No doubt. People getting paid for putting up much less quality of work. Appreciate the effort entirely.

[Orlwillbeback]

A very detailed and thorough dissertation, but sadly one sided argument, in favor of the stretch four. Did you think about any of the cons of such an offense when writing this? For example, the effects of rebounding on a team, whether it be lower numbers from the traditional power position, or long carums off the rim? The opposing teams fastbreak transition due to the long rebounds, or foul trouble it may cause? Also, I don't see how advantageous it is to drew drafting Gordon, acquiring Frye, and retaining KOQ. I have other questions too, why didn't the suns go to the playoffs with this offense? Why didn't they try hard to keep frye? I hate the stretch four going back to shard. In fact, if hate were people, I'd be China. I don't mind a different look coming off the bench, but I despise constructing a team around it. I'm hoping Gordon develops very quickly, but I prefer KOQ there instead.

Suns would have been the 4th seed in the east and possibly better. They slmost won 50 games in the loaded west. They were better than all east teams except the heat and pacers.

[JDLAW]

As a Suns fan i can only say congratulations on Channing Frye. One of my favorite players. I think the effect in Orlando will be a bit different than with the Suns, because Dragic and Bledsoe are a little better shooters than Olidipo and Payton. When his shot is on, your offense will look fantastic as then floor spacing will be such that both of your guards will be able to get anywhere they want to on the floor. He will also open space for your big center down low. Even when his shot is off, he still has to be guarded because he goes on long streaks when he gets hot and can break open a game with this 3 pt shooting. He is a very good defensive player in the post, but struggles a little when he gets too far out on the wing.

Last year, he was terrific the first 2/3 of the season and tapered off the last 1/3. I think it was fatigue from having sat out the previous year.

You will also get good leadership from him for your young team.

The price was a little high, but you had the room and offered a smart (declining) contract.

He will be very good for the Magic.

[Orlwillbeback]

As a Suns fan i can only say congratulations on Channing Frye. One of my favorite players. I think the effect in Orlando will be a bit different than with the Suns, because Dragic and Bledsoe are a little better shooters than Olidipo and Payton. When his shot is on, your offense will look fantastic as then floor spacing will be such that both of your guards will be able to get anywhere they want to on the floor. He will also open space for your big center down low. Even when his shot is off, he still has to be guarded because he goes on long streaks when he gets hot and can break open a game with this 3 pt shooting. He is a very good defensive player in the post, but struggles a little when he gets too far out on the wing.

Last year, he was terrific the first 2/3 of the season and tapered off the last 1/3. I think it was fatigue from having sat out the previous year.

You will also get good leadership from him for your young team.

The price was a little high, but you had the room and offered a smart (declining) contract.

He will be very good for the Magic.

Thanks for the input.

Can you shed some light on his heart condition? I honestly don't know much about it.

[JDLAW]

As a Suns fan i can only say congratulations on Channing Frye. One of my favorite players. I think the effect in Orlando will be a bit different than with the Suns, because Dragic and Bledsoe are a little better shooters than Olidipo and Payton. When his shot is on, your offense will look fantastic as then floor spacing will be such that both of your guards will be able to get anywhere they want to on the floor. He will also open space for your big center down low. Even when his shot is off, he still has to be guarded because he goes on long streaks when he gets hot and can break open a game with this 3 pt shooting. He is a very good defensive player in the post, but struggles a little when he gets too far out on the wing.

Last year, he was terrific the first 2/3 of the season and tapered off the last 1/3. I think it was fatigue from having sat out the previous year.

You will also get good leadership from him for your young team.

The price was a little high, but you had the room and offered a smart (declining) contract.

He will be very good for the Magic.

Thanks for the input.

Can you shed some light on his heart condition? I honestly don't know much about it.

He had a viral cardiomyopathy - in layperson's terms a virus that attacks the heart muscle (myocardium) and causes changes, i.e wall thickening etc… The heart becomes less efficient and does not pump as well, which causes enlargement. He sat out a year to resolve his condition and was cleared by MDs at Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins and the Cleveland Clinic. He should be fine.

[Melvinlocker]

The Suns' overall rebound rate wasn't negatively affected by Frye's presence (TRR: 44.5-->45.1; TRB%: 49.9-->50.2). The offensive rebounding rate did go down (12.1-->11.6), in part because of the decrease in offensive rebounding percentage (27.0-->25.9). But the team's shooting efficiency increased so much (eFG%: 49.2-->53.8) it overwhelmed whatever effect that might have on scoring, and the Suns scored far more per 100 possessions (104.9-->113.1).

On defense, Suns opponents attempted about one more field goal attempt off defensive rebounds per 100 possessions with Frye on the floor (21.5-->22.7), and they converted these attempts at a higher eFG% (46.5-->53.5), but that resulted in a negligible overall impact on their overall scoring output, in points per 100 possessions (106.8-->107.0). Frye's overall impact on offense seems to dramatically outweigh his overall impact on defense.

First of all, stats can be a funny thing. They're easily manipulated to strengthen any argument. I'm not against facts, those are something else entirely. What you've shown here is no more than a strong correlation between two things, and that's if I'm conceding that. You haven't shown causality at all. Sure, you have answered a couple of my questions, not all, but you've also now raised even more with your new set of numbers. Basketball is not a lab experiment where you can hold variables at a constant, or manipulate them to prove a theory. Its way too dynamic for you to be definitive about cause and effect. What did the bench consist of that could have skewed Frye's on the court and off numbers? What were the starting players effects on Frye? Did the pg there differ from the one we have here, and does that matter? Also, I can't prove a negative and insert some traditional pf's numbers into that model if they didn't have one on the roster themselves. See, all you've really shown me is that Frye was better playing with that Suns team rather than without, which that I would concede.

The approach of conceding defensive rebounds, and defending hard on the perimeter is an approach that the Miami Heat used successfully to win two titles.

I disagree with this. Yeah, they won two titles, but they also lost two titles because of the same thing. They were weak down low. Also, they just so happened to have the greatest player in the entire league on their team as well. Let's not think for a minute that Miami was great because of their stretch four offense. I'll take the Spurs approach any day. Duncan with Splitter and Diaw was the ticket, not Bosh and Haslem. One other thing I want to mention about the stretch four, you don't have to go all the way out to the three point line to create spacing. That mid-range game from your bigs is just as huge, and be close enough to contribute at the rim. The team that had this down the best was the Bad boys, with Laimbeer hitting that jumper. Then, they had Mahorn, Rodman, and Salley to do the dirty work down low. I believe we have that with Vuc now, all we need is his complement. The focus is wrong by Henny. What happened was he looked at his roster and noticed a lack of three point shooting, as a final scrambling touch he added over 12M with BG and Frye. And of course, brought back the hated stretch four for me in the process. I'm a huge Aaron Gordon fan now, lol.

That is why he posted countless links and videos dude. The stats are simply supporting what our eyes are seeing.

It is clear that Channing's shooting is having a tremendous impact on the Pheonix guards because the bigs aren't committing to stop penetration. Pick any footage of Frye you can find and you'll see that the bigs are practically hugging the man on D. This is something that will be true for him no matter where he plays. Literally every model I have seen evaluating the value of spacing (specifically big man spacing out to the 3pt line) shows that it causes offenses to outperform their expected offensive production. If you can find a stat/or video that shows otherwise, then let's see it. I'm not gonna harp on this anymore cause I know you are a smart cookie. If you can't find anything I'll take that as you conceding this point.

In regard to the midrange game, I happen to agree with your assertion that it is underrated in today's league. However, we shouldn't treat it like a shot that is the most desirable (that honor would go to lay ups/dunks, free throws and threes). The midrange shot is more of a release valve shot to keep the defense honest if perimeter pressure is heavy and post denial is too strong. Besides, we have plenty of quality midrange shooters in Vucevic, Nicholson, O'Quinn, Tobias and even Frye is efficient when he gets opportunities in that area. This just isn't a relevant point of discussion for our team.

I'd ask you to consider that we may improve our rebounding next year as we were undersized at every position last year (our tallest PF was 6'8" and we were playing Jameer heavy minutes). We are now oversized at every position and will have elite rebounders for their position playing heavy minutes in Vucevic, Tobias at SF and Vic/Elfrid at PG.

So far, all you have posted in this thread are feelings on why things won't work, but I haven't seen one stat, video breakdown or historical data to support your point. I don't see how you can criticize Dre's data when the best data you came up with was that the Spurs and the 90s Pistons have some players who shoot midrange jumpers so obviously the Magic should have signed some this offseason as well. Nearly everything else I saw was you pontificating about this and that. You certainly hold the right to disagree, but if you want posters to respect your opinion then you might want to bring some legit evidence to the table.

[doct3r dr3]

The Suns' overall rebound rate wasn't negatively affected by Frye's presence (TRR: 44.5-->45.1; TRB%: 49.9-->50.2). The offensive rebounding rate did go down (12.1-->11.6), in part because of the decrease in offensive rebounding percentage (27.0-->25.9). But the team's shooting efficiency increased so much (eFG%: 49.2-->53.8) it overwhelmed whatever effect that might have on scoring, and the Suns scored far more per 100 possessions (104.9-->113.1).

On defense, Suns opponents attempted about one more field goal attempt off defensive rebounds per 100 possessions with Frye on the floor (21.5-->22.7), and they converted these attempts at a higher eFG% (46.5-->53.5), but that resulted in a negligible overall impact on their overall scoring output, in points per 100 possessions (106.8-->107.0). Frye's overall impact on offense seems to dramatically outweigh his overall impact on defense.

First of all, stats can be a funny thing. They're easily manipulated to strengthen any argument. I'm not against facts, those are something else entirely. What you've shown here is no more than a strong correlation between two things, and that's if I'm conceding that. You haven't shown causality at all. Sure, you have answered a couple of my questions, not all, but you've also now raised even more with your new set of numbers. Basketball is not a lab experiment where you can hold variables at a constant, or manipulate them to prove a theory. Its way too dynamic for you to be definitive about cause and effect. What did the bench consist of that could have skewed Frye's on the court and off numbers? What were the starting players effects on Frye? Did the pg there differ from the one we have here, and does that matter? Also, I can't prove a negative and insert some traditional pf's numbers into that model if they didn't have one on the roster themselves. See, all you've really shown me is that Frye was better playing with that Suns team rather than without, which that I would concede.

Actually, you can hold a great many variables at a constant. The sort of controls you're describing for five-man lineups and opposing lineups are all taken into account by stats like RAPM and further controls (the inclusion of box score priors and previous season priors to sort out co-linearity issues) are included in xRAPM. Even with these sorts of adjustments, Frye grades out as a sizable positive force on offense in both RAPM and xRAPM.

It's not as if my post is the first to put forth this radical idea. You seem to be willfully ignoring the many other pieces that demonstrate the inherent efficacy of the stretch four, and of having multiple shooters on the floor (like the pieces Melvinlocker linked on page 1 of this thread). Your earlier post on three-point shots and decreasing offensive rebounds ignores the empirical research that shows otherwise. Sometimes things that appear counterintuitive just happen to be true, and we have to adapt our understanding to fit the observed reality.

The approach of conceding defensive rebounds, and defending hard on the perimeter is an approach that the Miami Heat used successfully to win two titles.

I disagree with this. Yeah, they won two titles, but they also lost two titles because of the same thing. They were weak down low. Also, they just so happened to have the greatest player in the entire league on their team as well. Let's not think for a minute that Miami was great because of their stretch four offense. I'll take the Spurs approach any day. Duncan with Splitter and Diaw was the ticket, not Bosh and Haslem. One other thing I want to mention about the stretch four, you don't have to go all the way out to the three point line to create spacing. That mid-range game from your bigs is just as huge, and be close enough to contribute at the rim. The team that had this down the best was the Bad boys, with Laimbeer hitting that jumper. Then, they had Mahorn, Rodman, and Salley to do the dirty work down low. I believe we have that with Vuc now, all we need is his complement. The focus is wrong by Henny. What happened was he looked at his roster and noticed a lack of three point shooting, as a final scrambling touch he added over 12M with BG and Frye. And of course, brought back the hated stretch four for me in the process. I'm a huge Aaron Gordon fan now, lol.

1.) Holding the Heat's two Finals losses against them in this context makes little sense. Every year 29 teams fail to win the title. It would be a little absurd to say a team is only truly good, and it's style of play legitimate, if the team wins the title every single year. The Spurs failed to win a title, what, 15 of the last 20 years?

2.) My aside on the Heat was not referring to their offensive approach, as much as their defensive approach, and approach to transition basketball. The Heat have eschewed the traditional, low post shot blocker, stay home, contest shots defensive approach, in favor of a system that involves aggressively playing passing lanes, trapping, and pressuring the ball. They also didn't commit real effort to crashing the offensive glass, in favor of getting back and setting up on defense. This was a very unconventional approach yet still they used it to such great effect, they were among the league's top ranked defenses year after year, and won two titles. This example was meant to show that a team can be very successful outside the parochial models of conventional wisdom.

3.) In the days of Laimbeer and Mahorn, the rules were different. Hand-checking was allowed, players shot 3-to-make-2 three throws, and post-up players were given more leash to go back to the basket -- rules that punished face-up guard play, and put the traditional post-up big man at center stage. But the fact is, the rules have since changed, and it's a different game now. Even your beloved Spurs are unrecognizable compared to their former selves. Smart teams are acknowledging these changes and trying to figure out how to get ahead in this new game.

[Last Guardian]

I think the bottom line is it depends on the team. The Spurs have great shooting all around so they can go traditional up front. If we had a traditional PF starting, say KOQ (whom I am a fan of), I think we would struggle to score 90 every game with the way the team is built.

[spinedoc]

That is why he posted countless links and videos dude. The stats are simply supporting what our eyes are seeing...

...So far, all you have posted in this thread are feelings on why things won't work, but I haven't seen one stat, video breakdown or historical data to support your point. I don't see how you can criticize Dre's data when the best data you came up with was that the Spurs and the 90s Pistons have some players who shoot midrange jumpers so obviously the Magic should have signed some this offseason as well. Nearly everything else I saw was you pontificating about this and that. You certainly hold the right to disagree, but if you want posters to respect your opinion then you might want to bring some legit evidence to the table.

Ah, I see what's going on here now. After perusing a couple other threads, I see there is a little advanced stat clique here and I've stepped on some toes with my reply. You honestly need videos and numbers in order to get my point? I'm just speaking conceptually and anecdotally based on several years experience of watching this sport. Do you need pictures in a novel in order to get the plot? I was trying to be nice in my disagreement actually about what Dre has posted. Yes, I appreciate his work in what he's put forth, but it doesn't convince me in the slightest. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I was merely stating why I wasn't convinced. You don't get to send me on a research assignment. Honestly speaking now, dre is trying to put lipstick on a pig, and you are close behind putting the tutu on. You have to come up with some smokescreen numbers to convince anyone that Channing Frye is a good signing. The dude is soft as hell and has a nickname of Charmin.

Of course a three point shooter will spread the defense, I get that (there are many ways to get an open shot for others btw), but his rebounding and defense is matador like and the epitome of weakness. The guy busted in NY, got traded, then rotted on the bench in Portland. So, the Suns find a niche for him, over achieved, and over paid him on his last contract. Now, we step in and give him yet another undeserving raise on top of his last, at 31 and an enlarged heart I may add. The dude is super frustrating as a player, and you're going to have a hell of a time calming the board down after each game. The highest paid player on this team, and his only contribution will be he can mentor the youngsters, because he has a huge heart both literally and figuratively. There weren't any numbers in there, so I hope you understood what it is I've said. I don't feel its necessary either to put up a litany of youtube videos of the guy getting posterised either. Anyone watching the game long enough should already be well aware of this fact. Sorry for the rant, but I didn't appreciate your condescending remarks.

[ChosenSavior]

Great work Dre, keep it up man! Really should be getting paid for writing such a detailed analysis such as this.

[CPBalla2003 n da 863]

Very, Very solid piece Doc.

[Melvinlocker]

That is why he posted countless links and videos dude. The stats are simply supporting what our eyes are seeing...

...So far, all you have posted in this thread are feelings on why things won't work, but I haven't seen one stat, video breakdown or historical data to support your point. I don't see how you can criticize Dre's data when the best data you came up with was that the Spurs and the 90s Pistons have some players who shoot midrange jumpers so obviously the Magic should have signed some this offseason as well. Nearly everything else I saw was you pontificating about this and that. You certainly hold the right to disagree, but if you want posters to respect your opinion then you might want to bring some legit evidence to the table.

Ah, I see what's going on here now. After perusing a couple other threads, I see there is a little advanced stat clique here and I've stepped on some toes with my reply. You honestly need videos and numbers in order to get my point? I'm just speaking conceptually and anecdotally based on several years experience of watching this sport. Do you need pictures in a novel in order to get the plot? I was trying to be nice in my disagreement actually about what Dre has posted. Yes, I appreciate his work in what he's put forth, but it doesn't convince me in the slightest. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I was merely stating why I wasn't convinced. You don't get to send me on a research assignment. Honestly speaking now, dre is trying to put lipstick on a pig, and you are close behind putting the tutu on. You have to come up with some smokescreen numbers to convince anyone that Channing Frye is a good signing. The dude is soft as hell and has a nickname of Charmin.

Of course a three point shooter will spread the defense, I get that (there are many ways to get an open shot for others btw), but his rebounding and defense is matador like and the epitome of weakness. The guy busted in NY, got traded, then rotted on the bench in Portland. So, the Suns find a niche for him, over achieved, and over paid him on his last contract. Now, we step in and give him yet another undeserving raise on top of his last, at 31 and an enlarged heart I may add. The dude is super frustrating as a player, and you're going to have a hell of a time calming the board down after each game. The highest paid player on this team, and his only contribution will be he can mentor the youngsters, because he has a huge heart both literally and figuratively. There weren't any numbers in there, so I hope you understood what it is I've said. I don't feel its necessary either to put up a litany of youtube videos of the guy getting posterised either. Anyone watching the game long enough should already be well aware of this fact. Sorry for the rant, but I didn't appreciate your condescending remarks.

The intention of my remarks was not meant for you as a person, but as a reflection of the viewpoint being propagated with little to no facts (at least from my vantage point). If I have offended you personally then I sincerely aplogize (no sarcasm intended).

As a separate matter I will rescind my earlier comment about your future "research assignment" as I can see how that would be offensive for me to obligate a fellow member of this board to do something they have no desire to do. With that said, there was a reason I alluded to research as I see you are obviously interested in the game and have some strong positions based on "several years of experience watching the sport". I honestly think it would be a travesty for someone with years of experience (whether it be watching or playing) to limit themselves to speaking anecdotally (as an aside, I realize that someone as yourself having spent years on this board might have exhausted your viewpoints and I simply haven't seen them yet).

In regard to my view on the advanced stat world, I hold a view that you watch the games first, understand the history of the game second, third notice trends in the game over the years (some traditionally good and some bad) and lastly, look at the vast assortment of statistical information at our disposal. No one has contested historical or trend issues, so i assume that is why no has addressed them in support or against the premise of the OP. Maybe I am mistaken, but I would say that is a balanced approach to evaluate basketball related issues. If all four of those things show an acceptable measure of consensus on an issue related to basketball, then I would venture to say it warrants a discussion beyond anecdotal status (I could cherry pick a number of champions who could fit your particular description of Charmin soft ranging in ability for Dirk Nowtizki to Matt Bonner). While no arguments are perfect, I think Dre at least covered at least two of those bases more than adequately and I am sure that if you pressed him he would be more than wiling to provide his take on the other two (I will let him speak for himself on this as I don't want to assume too much here).

Suffice to say, I honestly have no problem with your viewpoint, I simply think it would be more constructive to go beyond short depiction that anecdote can provide (especially since I have the inkling that you have more to say on the matter). Anyways, no hard feelings, I assume we will just have to agree to disagree and live with the results to come forth in the following years. Enjoyed the back and forth.

[spinedoc]

I really appreciate that Melvin, and I'm sorry for obviously misjudging you. We just talk past each other with these stats. I don't think they are the end all of an argument like some do. Take eFG% for example, it takes into account threes made vs two point shots, but not if they are bad shots. Is the offense out of position? Are we jacking them up early in the shot clock?, are we taking too many threes vs twos?, etc. For me there are just too many variables to post a set of numbers and then just drop the mike. I'll try not to be a wet blanket I my way out of this discussion though. What I said earlier about Vuc being our Laimbeer I meant. Maybe, we already have our Mahorn, KOQ, our Rodman, AG, and our Salley, Frye, already. Lets see what develops going forward, because that's all we really have at this point, development. And, after thinking about it a bit more, our stretch four is at least different from SVG's stretch offense. He seemed to think the four meant four guys standing at the arc jacking up shots, here it looks like we just have the four position able to hit the three pointer. So, I'll give it a little time to see what happens. I hope we don't lean on it like a crutch however.

Dre, no knock on you man. Keep posting this stuff, it obviously is discussion worthy, lol. Later.

[Howard Mass]

Congratulations to the RealGM User of The Week doct3r dr3!

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1337313

This post is outstanding and it won you this week's award.

You definitely earned this.

[Melvinlocker]

I really appreciate that Melvin, and I'm sorry for obviously misjudging you. We just talk past each other with these stats. I don't think they are the end all of an argument like some do. Take eFG% for example, it takes into account threes made vs two point shots, but not if they are bad shots. Is the offense out of position? Are we jacking them up early in the shot clock?, are we taking too many threes vs twos?, etc. For me there are just too many variables to post a set of numbers and then just drop the mike. I'll try not to be a wet blanket I my way out of this discussion though. What I said earlier about Vuc being our Laimbeer I meant. Maybe, we already have our Mahorn, KOQ, our Rodman, AG, and our Salley, Frye, already. Lets see what develops going forward, because that's all we really have at this point, development. And, after thinking about it a bit more, our stretch four is at least different from SVG's stretch offense. He seemed to think the four meant four guys standing at the arc jacking up shots, here it looks like we just have the four position able to hit the three pointer. So, I'll give it a little time to see what happens. I hope we don't lean on it like a crutch however.

Dre, no knock on you man. Keep posting this stuff, it obviously is discussion worthy, lol. Later.

Alright, man appreciate it.

Since you mentioned it, I actually really like eFG as a stat, but I agree with you that it has it's limits (there needs to be an inherent preference for shots closer to the basket because of likelihood). Stan Van Gundy once made the point at one of the Sloan Conferences that the numbers can only take you so far and you have to actually watch the games to understand the game best. He mentioned that the the 2007-08 Celtics actually led the NBA in 2pt % on long twos and that seems to be glossed over in many number crunching types. There is traditional and even recent historical precedence that good midrange shooters offer a helpful dynamic for championship teams. Watching players like Tony Parker, Dwyane Wade, Paul Pierce etc., one gets the sense that their willingness to take the midrange shot and make it at a high rate, brings a welcomed dynamic to an offense that can't be replicated by shots like the corner three, top of the break three etc.

Look forward to seeing your insight sir!

[Driguez]

Congratulations to the RealGM User of The Week doct3r dr3!

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1337313

This post is outstanding and it won you this week's award.

You definitely earned this.

RealGM be like




Congrats

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using RealGM Forums mobile app