Did the Magic 'Tank'? Are They 'Tanking' Now?

[majortom71]

I am not pro tank but there are definitely good reasons to tank.
For example if a draft is loaded at the top and your team is not built to make the playoffs than you probably want to pick early in the lottery and have the best chance to do so.
If the draft class is well spread out than I really don't think a tank is necessary.
To me this team is not built for making the playoffs. As I mentioned preseason the goal of the club is to get the youth involved and evaluate the talent. Henny is obviously not done adding pieces. They are satisfied with their C Vucevic but other players may be replaced. If the Magic are not making the playoffs which I don't expect them to, then where in the draft do they need to be to get their player? I mean how late can their pick be and still get the player they want?
I don't know that answer, they will know this. So for example if they need a SF in this draft and the first 3 SF players in the draft are very close in their scouting reports and they fall in the middle of the lottery than you can get away with the 6-9th pick. You don't need a strong tank to achieve that.

So long story short I am not sure if they need to tank but if they do than they should and they will.

[KingRobb02]

Tanking is never "necessary". The Rockets are the best team in the league this year and they never tanked. Most dominant teams in the NBA the past few years were the Spurs and Heat. They never tanked. It's possible to win without swinging for the top of the lottery.

[Jiwol]

Most dominant teams in the NBA the past few years were the Spurs and Heat. They never tanked

And how did Spurs got Duncan back in the days? What about getting D-Wade with no 5 by Miami?

[OrlDave]

I think you can answer the "are we tanking now" question by this statement. 13 teams voted against the draft overhaul, Orlando was not one.

[KingRobb02]

Most dominant teams in the NBA the past few years were the Spurs and Heat. They never tanked

And how did Spurs got Duncan back in the days? What about getting D-Wade with no 5 by Miami?

I wouldn't call an injury sacrificing current wins to be better later. The Spurs tried to rush Robinson back twice from injury. That was not a tank job, just luck.

As for the Heat, that was a team built around Mourning and his kidney forced him to miss 02-03. Not exactly a tank job.

[OrlDave]

Most dominant teams in the NBA the past few years were the Spurs and Heat. They never tanked

And how did Spurs got Duncan back in the days? What about getting D-Wade with no 5 by Miami?

Yup, the Duncan tank job was one of the most masterful ever. A pretty good team loses it's best player for a year and gets rewarded with the best PF in NBA history.

On a side note, SA and Miami both voted AGAINST refurbing the draft.

[KingRobb02]

Most dominant teams in the NBA the past few years were the Spurs and Heat. They never tanked

And how did Spurs got Duncan back in the days? What about getting D-Wade with no 5 by Miami?

Yup, the Duncan tank job was one of the most masterful ever. A pretty good team loses it's best player for a year and gets rewarded with the best PF in NBA history.

On a side note, SA and Miami both voted AGAINST refurbing the draft.

I don't really call those tank jobs because tanking is a plan, and I doubt that the Heat and Spurs planned for their franchise centers to have major injuries. And they definitely didn't plan to have the lottery luck they did.

[OrlDave]

And how did Spurs got Duncan back in the days? What about getting D-Wade with no 5 by Miami?

Yup, the Duncan tank job was one of the most masterful ever. A pretty good team loses it's best player for a year and gets rewarded with the best PF in NBA history.

On a side note, SA and Miami both voted AGAINST refurbing the draft.

I don't really call those tank jobs because tanking is a plan, and I doubt that the Heat and Spurs planned for their franchise centers to have major injuries. And they definitely didn't plan to have the lottery luck they did.

Really? They went from 59 wins to 20. You are telling me they didn't tweak the team a bit to lose games? Really? Come on now.

[thelead]

And how did Spurs got Duncan back in the days? What about getting D-Wade with no 5 by Miami?

Yup, the Duncan tank job was one of the most masterful ever. A pretty good team loses it's best player for a year and gets rewarded with the best PF in NBA history.

On a side note, SA and Miami both voted AGAINST refurbing the draft.

I don't really call those tank jobs because tanking is a plan, and I doubt that the Heat and Spurs planned for their franchise centers to have major injuries. And they definitely didn't plan to have the lottery luck they did.

Obviously they didn't plan the injuries BUT when they happened, there was ZERO effort to win games (on purpose). David Robinson was great but he wasn't "make your team 40 wins better" great.

[KingRobb02]

Yup, the Duncan tank job was one of the most masterful ever. A pretty good team loses it's best player for a year and gets rewarded with the best PF in NBA history.

On a side note, SA and Miami both voted AGAINST refurbing the draft.

I don't really call those tank jobs because tanking is a plan, and I doubt that the Heat and Spurs planned for their franchise centers to have major injuries. And they definitely didn't plan to have the lottery luck they did.

Really? They went from 59 wins to 20. You are telling me they didn't tweak the team a bit to lose games? Really? Come on now.

Losing one of the best players of all time does that. If a team is built around a talent like David Robinson and he is missing, you will suffer. They even tried adding Dominique Wilkins to pick up the scoring slack. They were trying to stop the bleeding.

[KingRobb02]

Yup, the Duncan tank job was one of the most masterful ever. A pretty good team loses it's best player for a year and gets rewarded with the best PF in NBA history.

On a side note, SA and Miami both voted AGAINST refurbing the draft.

I don't really call those tank jobs because tanking is a plan, and I doubt that the Heat and Spurs planned for their franchise centers to have major injuries. And they definitely didn't plan to have the lottery luck they did.

Obviously they didn't plan the injuries BUT when they happened, there was ZERO effort to win games (on purpose). David Robinson was great but he wasn't "make your team 40 wins better" great.

I would argue that getting Dominique Wilkins from Greece was a move to get better. Plus they tried bringing Robinson back TWICE. They were trying. And if losing Dwight made us 30 games worse even though we "won" that trade, how valuable to you think a better version of Dwight in Robinson would be worth?

[OrlDave]

I don't really call those tank jobs because tanking is a plan, and I doubt that the Heat and Spurs planned for their franchise centers to have major injuries. And they definitely didn't plan to have the lottery luck they did.

Really? They went from 59 wins to 20. You are telling me they didn't tweak the team a bit to lose games? Really? Come on now.

Losing one of the best players of all time does that. If a team is built around a talent like David Robinson and he is missing, you will suffer. They even tried adding Dominique Wilkins to pick up the scoring slack. They were trying to stop the bleeding.

Magic lost Shaq and the next year made the playoffs... in fact they had the 3rd best record that year if I recall correctly. They (the spurs) signed Wilkins in the off season before it was clear Robinson was gone all year. It wasn't some stop gap to try to make the playoffs. But whatever, I believe they tanked after it was clear DR was gone, you believe they didn't, no way to prove it either way.

[thelead]

Really? They went from 59 wins to 20. You are telling me they didn't tweak the team a bit to lose games? Really? Come on now.

Losing one of the best players of all time does that. If a team is built around a talent like David Robinson and he is missing, you will suffer. They even tried adding Dominique Wilkins to pick up the scoring slack. They were trying to stop the bleeding.

Magic lost Shaq and the next year made the playoffs... in fact they had the 3rd best record that year if I recall correctly. They (the spurs) signed Wilkins in the off season before it was clear Robinson was gone all year. It wasn't some stop gap to try to make the playoffs. But whatever, I believe they tanked after it was clear DR was gone, you believe they didn't, no way to prove it either way.

well said

[UCF]

Watching the game vs the 76'ers I would say we are not tanking. The reality is we just aren't very good right now.

[KingRobb02]

Magic lost Shaq and the next year made the playoffs... in fact they had the 3rd best record that year if I recall correctly. They (the spurs) signed Wilkins in the off season before it was clear Robinson was gone all year. It wasn't some stop gap to try to make the playoffs. But whatever, I believe they tanked after it was clear DR was gone, you believe they didn't, no way to prove it either way.

We had a lot better supporting cast on those Magic teams. The Spurs were literally team built around Robinson and a bunch of guys like Vinnie, Avery, and Sean who were support pieces. Penny was an All-NBA first team level talent, Nick was better than any Spurs guard, and Grant was a top 40 guy in the NBA.

Not to push the issue, but this is how I remember it:
-The 1997 Spurs supporting cast was a lot worse than the 1996 supporting cast. Johnson and Del Negro were both on the wrong side of 30 and declining. Doc Rivers retired. Chuck Person missed the year after back surgery. Charles Smith missed 65 games with a knee injury, Elliot missed 43 because of a knee. I think 10 Spurs missed time that year due to injury.
-Just like Durant this year, Robinson got hurt in pre-season. Back if I recall. He was out until December, and played 6 games (they went 3-3) and then he broke his foot. Two different injuries, makes me think it wasn't strategic.
-They signed Wilkins in October. He was an injury stopgap for Person, but they definitely tried to hold the ship together until Admiral's back got better.
-They fired their coach. If they weren't trying to win, why get rid of a coach for underperforming?

Not treating this as evidence, just saying the facts that convince me it was luck.

[OrlDave]

Magic lost Shaq and the next year made the playoffs... in fact they had the 3rd best record that year if I recall correctly. They (the spurs) signed Wilkins in the off season before it was clear Robinson was gone all year. It wasn't some stop gap to try to make the playoffs. But whatever, I believe they tanked after it was clear DR was gone, you believe they didn't, no way to prove it either way.

We had a lot better supporting cast on those Magic teams. The Spurs were literally team built around Robinson and a bunch of guys like Vinnie, Avery, and Sean who were support pieces.

Not to push the issue, but this is how I remember it:
-The 1997 Spurs supporting cast was a lot worse than the 1996 supporting cast. Johnson and Del Negro were both on the wrong side of 30 and declining. Doc Rivers retired. Chuck Person missed the year after back surgery. Charles Smith missed 65 games with a knee injury, Elliot missed 43 because of a knee. I think 10 Spurs missed time that year due to injury.
-Just like Durant this year, Robinson got hurt in pre-season. Back if I recall. He was out until December, and played 6 games (they went 3-3) and then he broke his foot. Two different injuries, makes me think it wasn't strategic.
-They signed Wilkins in October. He was an injury stopgap for Person, but they definitely tried to hold the ship together until Admiral's back got better.
-They fired their coach. If they weren't trying to win, why get rid of a coach for underperforming?

Not treating this as evidence, just saying the facts that convince me it was luck.

Here's my narrative of the situation. They sign Wilkins in the off-season (October is the off season btw) thinking Robinson will only be gone a little bit. At that point they are trying to get over the hump and win a title. They struggle early, but Robinson comes back a month into the season (give or take) and breaks his foot. At that point other players start having "injuries" where they get held out longer than need be (not unlike we did last year). They fire their coach, further undermining the season.

My belief is the tanking happened AFTER the foot break, not at the beginning of the season. Why would they plan to tank then when the first injury wasn't a season ending one. But a broken foot? They KNEW they weren't winning a title without DR, so why push?

[doct3r dr3]

Most dominant teams in the NBA the past few years were the Spurs and Heat. They never tanked

And how did Spurs got Duncan back in the days? What about getting D-Wade with no 5 by Miami?

Don't forget the Heat tanking their way to the #2 pick (Beasley) like a year or two after that title. Need to revisit your history, KingRobb02.

[BadMofoPimp]

Actually, Vaughn has been trying his hardest working insane hours trying to figure out a way to win a game for over 2 years now. Henny noticed that the team still doesn't have enough talent to win, so he needed to extend Vaughn for another year.

[MagicMadness]

To me tanking is the strategy of sacrificing immediate gains for future growth.

I like this definition better than mine.

By that definition the Thunder were tanking when they let Harden go. Their rationale was that refusing to give him a max contract and sending him packing would give them future flexibility.

Maybe that definition should be tweaked a bit.

The Thunder felt they could still perform at an elite level - then, and in the future - without the baggage/burden of Harden's max contract, while the Magic knew full well that trading all their key vets would impact them negatively in the standings.

Basically, the Magic sacrificed immediate gains in an attempt to rebuild, while the Thunder sacrificed immediate gains in an attempt to stay the course now and increase their chances of staying the course in the future.

[KingRobb02]

Most dominant teams in the NBA the past few years were the Spurs and Heat. They never tanked

And how did Spurs got Duncan back in the days? What about getting D-Wade with no 5 by Miami?

Don't forget the Heat tanking their way to the #2 pick (Beasley) like a year or two after that title. Need to revisit your history, KingRobb02.

Wouldn't that be evidence of tanking NOT working?