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Agree or not.. Truth hurt..

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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#21 » by Magic_Time » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:08 pm

flying_mollusk wrote:
Magic_Time wrote:
flying_mollusk wrote:I think we have to just be patient. We have the pieces. It's just going to take time for them to develop. Ill repeat what I said in another thread. Vic is 22, Harris is 22, Vuc is 24 and Fournier is 22. If we win 35 games with that core, that's a huge stride. That means we will be playoff contenders next year, and then can go up from there. What I think hurt us early on was Vic's injury. It really took away his offseason work and his ability to solidify chemistry with some of the guys. I think it will come.

As for the PF issue, I also think the plan is ultimately for Gordon to take over in 1-2 years from Frye. Notice how many 3s Gordon has been shooting? I think they want to develop him into the same mold as a stretch 4 that can play with Harris and, on defense, take the better player at the PF/SF spot. Teams are going to struggle like hell if their PF has to guard either Harris or Gordon while getting no advantage on the other end.

Look at it another way. Our schedule has been rough with a lot of road games. But we are nowhere close to some of the other lower level teams. Philly has a negative 16 point differential (!!), LA has a -8 point differential. Minnesota is -7. We are at -3.3 so far. That would put us somewhere around where Sacramento and New Orleans were last year. Those two teams are competing for playoffs in the west this year.


I understand everything you just said. i know we not far from being good, the problem is that I like Gordon more as a SF than a PF.. Lemme open all of your eyes to something most of us if any have not pay attention to, for the past 3-4 years the last 4 teams standing in the west and east finals they all have one thing in common.. They all have a very good to great SFs.. Either a 2 way SF, or a defensive SF or a more advance offensive one.. However most of them were almost 2 way.. James, Durant, Leonard and P.George. On our team we wont stand a chance against them in the finals with Harris, thats why my hope is on Gordon and Harkless to stand a chance aginst those guys more defensively.. thats why i feel like we need a 2 way PF next to Vuc and Gordon, like that we can contend more year in and out..


I don't think we should lock in on one specific aspect of championship teams and decide that's how it has to be. The Mavs had Marion/Butler as their SFs when they won. Keep in mind, Im saying we do have a defensive SF in Gordon. But he should be able to play with Harris in a dynamic set. Gordon can guard the Durant or Lebron, but then play stretch 4 on offense.


I got u, thats exactly how i feel.. people be saying our league is a scoring first point Guard driven league now and talented undersize PFs which is true but i feel like we should counter it with a passing first defensive guard and a twin tower at the post. We just missing that 6'10- 6'11 2 way PF, like a more defensive Aldrige.. 8-) .. Remember Marion/Butler were not bad at the time, we dont need a scoring SF we just need a Defensive one to counter the more talented scoring SFs like Durant and james and Carmelo even P.George..
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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#22 » by fendilim » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:32 pm

BadWolf wrote:
silent1900 wrote:I had no trouble understanding the post, though I do disagree with one part of it.

You mentioned having 4-5 very good players and a great coach as being a viable path to a title, and I think that outside of the Pistons many years back, that hasn't really held true.

As long as there is a salary cap and a max salary in place, I think the path to titles runs through acquiring 'super-max' guys.




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You should add 2013 /14 Spurs. None of their guys was a superstar (Tim, Manufacturing, Tony are part their primes, in level or even below those Pistons guys) .

Thats true. And what that maybe like 1 in every 10 years?

While I do agree that our players are far from being superstar. I think Vic, Vuc and Tobias has a really good chance to be an allstar. But to say multiple time allstar, i dont think so. To me, the best way to win a championship isto have multiple time allstars leading the way. I just dont know if any our youngsters can do it. But the Spurs model gives me hope. the way this draft has panned out, i think the process may have diverted a little, but we'll see. Its still too early to tell. I think we should let this model play out. And see where we are at the end of the season. We have cap space, we have assets and still have our picks. If we cant land a franchise player through the draft we still have enough chips to move. Its not yet the panic button. The light at the end of the tunnel has yet to be determined whether its a train or not.
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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#23 » by drsd » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:25 pm

Magic_Time wrote:To become a contender, those are the different steps a team can take:
a- you need a superstar and 3 good players and a GREAT coach
b- you need 2 - 3 big stars and some crafty veteran role players and a GOOD coach
C- 4 -5 real good close allstars, team first players (they dont have to start together), 2-3 other solid players with a GREAT coach.


I agree that these are the players that created championship teams. It allows for ht Spurs, the Heat and the Pistons as all examples that have won in the last 20 years.

So, Orlando needs one of these three things. Which is it? GM Hennigan seems to be trying to assemble option C. In part this seems to me to be a reflection on the consequences of the new CBA. Guys like Vučević and Harris willnot get Max money but seem to be cogs in an option #C.


..
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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#24 » by Furinkazan » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:39 pm

So Tim Duncan wasnt a superstar during his career.
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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#25 » by JF5 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:42 pm

Why does everyone want the world this season? Granted I think this team has a shot to make the playoffs. (Due to how bad the lower half is). They are in a damn good position. They're trying to figure out if their young guys are legit stars, and see if they can build around them for years to come. And looking at Tobias/Vucevic, (Oladipo is coming off injury). It looks like they might be able to do that. They'll have flexibility for the next couple of years, and they will be able to add another guy without screwing up what they have now. Patience is just key here. This a VERY young team with a lot of new faces, trying to figure out how to win in this league. Projection wise, this team is just one guy away from competing in a few years. They don't need a Superstar. They'll have 4 All-Stars/Star level guys and pretty good depth at that point.
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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#26 » by gumbyr24 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:48 pm

You lost me at
"Having a coach like Pop and his staffs, especially their shooting coach, would make us a contender as soon as next year"
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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#27 » by ralphie9898 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:50 pm

tiderulz wrote:
ralphie9898 wrote:
silent1900 wrote:I had no trouble understanding the post, though I do disagree with one part of it.

You mentioned having 4-5 very good players and a great coach as being a viable path to a title, and I think that outside of the Pistons many years back, that hasn't really held true.

As long as there is a salary cap and a max salary in place, I think the path to titles runs through acquiring 'super-max' guys.

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UH San Antonio has done it without those super-max guys.


well, similar to the Pistons with Billups/Wallace/Wallace, SA is more the exception than normal. they have a player that could have been playing on the max for years that has taken less money and you already see Kawhi wanting the max, so that will soon end.


The Duncan of last year isn't a super max player anymore. He is still good but his super-max days are behind him. Kawhi is a nice young player who I like a lot but I am not sure he is a franchise cornerstone player yet. Yeah he gets the max for his experience level but when it comes to his next deal when he is eligible for the higher max level I am not sure is worth that yet. We shall see though as Kawhi very well could show hat he is. But I don't think you have to have those super-max guys to win a title. It helps surely but I don't think it is the end all way to build a championship team.
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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#28 » by tiderulz » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:07 pm

ralphie9898 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
ralphie9898 wrote: UH San Antonio has done it without those super-max guys.


well, similar to the Pistons with Billups/Wallace/Wallace, SA is more the exception than normal. they have a player that could have been playing on the max for years that has taken less money and you already see Kawhi wanting the max, so that will soon end.


The Duncan of last year isn't a super max player anymore. He is still good but his super-max days are behind him. Kawhi is a nice young player who I like a lot but I am not sure he is a franchise cornerstone player yet. Yeah he gets the max for his experience level but when it comes to his next deal when he is eligible for the higher max level I am not sure is worth that yet. We shall see though as Kawhi very well could show hat he is. But I don't think you have to have those super-max guys to win a title. It helps surely but I don't think it is the end all way to build a championship team.


yeah, but his last few contracts, i dont believe he asked for nor received the max.

and part of the problem is that with a "max" contract cap, no one really tries to negotiate a true value, they just say they want the max. So for example someone like Rashard was making more than Dwight.
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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#29 » by Magic_Time » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:06 pm

gumbyr24 wrote:You lost me at
"Having a coach like Pop and his staffs, especially their shooting coach, would make us a contender as soon as next year"

well, we have a good team with many guys who can play multiple position. Most if not all of them like to pass the ball. Being in the Pop system, not only would make them move the ball faster and play a fluid offensive game, they would also play the help defense pretty well too.. With a guy like Pop, if you were bad and have the desire, he'll make u decent, if u were decent, he'll make you good, if u were good, he'll make u real good and if u were real good, he'll m'ke u great.. and so far we have a bunch of good players on this team.. 8-) ..
About their shooting coach, i heard story about him being the best or one one of the best shooting coaches in the league.. he's the reason leonard become good or decent at shooting the ball, cause leonard was pretty bad coming in his draft class..
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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#30 » by shadrock » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:13 pm

This post made me smile :)
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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#31 » by PMFJB » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:36 pm

Props to OP for taking feedback and the dude who apologized. I am just an outsider checking other team's boards. But that was good to see.
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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#32 » by ralphie9898 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:05 am

tiderulz wrote:
ralphie9898 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
well, similar to the Pistons with Billups/Wallace/Wallace, SA is more the exception than normal. they have a player that could have been playing on the max for years that has taken less money and you already see Kawhi wanting the max, so that will soon end.


The Duncan of last year isn't a super max player anymore. He is still good but his super-max days are behind him. Kawhi is a nice young player who I like a lot but I am not sure he is a franchise cornerstone player yet. Yeah he gets the max for his experience level but when it comes to his next deal when he is eligible for the higher max level I am not sure is worth that yet. We shall see though as Kawhi very well could show hat he is. But I don't think you have to have those super-max guys to win a title. It helps surely but I don't think it is the end all way to build a championship team.


yeah, but his last few contracts, i dont believe he asked for nor received the max.

and part of the problem is that with a "max" contract cap, no one really tries to negotiate a true value, they just say they want the max. So for example someone like Rashard was making more than Dwight.


Yeah I wasn't referring to all of San Antonio's titles. I was just reefing to last years. I am very aware that Duncan has taken less money. And yeah most players want the max versus their true value. That happens a lot. But I go by their true value as that is how much they contribute to a team going for a title. And like I said I just don't feel that we have to have a super max guy to win a title.
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Re: Agree or not.. Truth hurt.. 

Post#33 » by WillyJakkz » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:05 pm

The alternative is that we actually are a good team who may enjoy moderate PO success and we find a different coach with a different voice who gets thru to the team differently and pushes us over the top similar to Larry Brown replacing Rick Carlisle in Detroit or Rick Carlisle who subsequently replaced Avery Johnson in Dallas.

So in other words maybe we have to cultivate the talent we have and Vaughn and the current players may be good enough to get to a certain level but we eventually get a coach who could take the same guys further instead of drastic changes for a superstar etc where we have to go thru a whole new learning curve between player pecking order and coaching dynamic.

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