Should Orlando throw the MAX at Jimmy Butler?

[Kev_bundles]

What would be the point in doing that?


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[Kev_bundles]

And Why stunt the growth of Gordon by going after leonard? Where's the logic


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[Bensational]

I think there is room to have a balance between the guys we've invested in long term, and some short term guys who could propel us into contending a lot faster.

Imagine if we signed 2 of Millsap, Butler and Kawhi this offseason (if we don't retain Harris, then go ahead and chase all 3). Sign them for 3-4 years.

Vuc - $13.5 (FA 2019)
Millsap/Kawhi - $12M/$15M (FA 2019) (if we sign Kawhi, run him at the 3 and make Harris a 4 full time)
Harris - $14M (FA 2019)
Butler - $14M (FA 2019)
Dipo - $5M (due for extension 2017)
Fourner - $2M (due for extension 2016)
Payton - $2M (due for extension 2018)
Gordon - $4M (due for extension 2018)

Now, those 4 year deals will take us through 2018/19, the first year that all of our rooks and young guys will have all been extended. by 2017 we'd be feeling the financial pinch, and 2018/19 would be a heavy financial year but it would be the start of the transition from the vets we sign now to our young guys - if our young guys have outperformed them and earned a spot.

this team would be gritty defense and versatile offense. it would be prime for running a team based Spurs-like offense.

with a 3 deep SF/PF rotation of Millsap/Harris + Kawhi/Gordon, and a 4 deep backcourt of Butler/Dipo/Fournier/Payton, injuries will never be a problem.

the most important addition of those signings is Millsap, who would secure our 4 spot. but the next best option would be Kawhi, who would shift Harris to the 4, who IMO does a far better job in that position than Frye.

Butler is basically insurance. we need a wing scorer who can create their own opportunities and get to the line. if Dipo or Fournier can become that guy by the end of the season, then it's a moot point. but if not, how long do we wait for players to fulfil potential when proven, guaranteed options are out there?

come on. who wouldn't love to see that lineup on the court!

[Orlwillbeback]

Were committed to frye already, its time we accepted this.

[Bensational]

Were committed to frye already, its time we accepted this.

i certainly hope that's not the attitude of management.

i understand giving something time to work, but if you see an opportunity to improve your team and it doesn't interfere with any other development, you should act on it.

our young guys need time to grow and mature as players, but someone like Frye we know what we're getting. if that's not as effective as we'd like and we refuse to pursue other options then we're just accepting failure.

it's not like a defensive partnership is going to just miraculously materialise between he and Vuc.

[Skin]

There's just barely enough playing time for Payton, Oladipo and Fournier to get theirs. Adding Butler to the mix is going to cause disharmony. I think Hennigan would be conscious of the consequences of a move like this. Just slow your roll. Jimmy Butler wasn't always like this. We need to give Oladipo the time he needs to develop as a player before we start writing imaginary checks to the latest buzz worthy FA name.

I think there's something to the point of finding balance and adding significant chips in FA to bolster the team. I think Frye was exactly an example of that. Millsap could be that depending on how O'Quinn fares when he finally starts playing. I have a feeling his impact will quickly remind folks that we already have what we need... instead of being a forgotten man.

We're banged up right now and people seem to focus only on what's in front of their face sometimes, but stay the course. We'll most likely have a Top 15 pick to add to our team next season. Talent acquisition wise, we're not far away. Talent development wise, we have a nice challenge.

[Bensational]

There's just barely enough playing time for Payton, Oladipo and Fournier to get theirs. Adding Butler to the mix is going to cause disharmony. I think Hennigan would be conscious of the consequences of a move like this. Just slow your roll. Jimmy Butler wasn't always like this. We need to give Oladipo the time he needs to develop as a player before we start writing imaginary checks to the latest buzz worthy FA name.

I think there's something to the point of finding balance and adding significant chips in FA to bolster the team. I think Frye was exactly an example of that. Millsap could be that depending on how O'Quinn fares when he finally starts playing. I have a feeling his impact will quickly remind folks that we already have what we need... instead of being a forgotten man.

We're banged up right now and people seem to focus only on what's in front of their face sometimes, but stay the course. We'll most likely have a Top 15 pick to add to our team next season. Talent acquisition wise, we're not far away. Talent development wise, we have a nice challenge.

Jimmy Butler hasn't always been used in this fashion - Dipo has been a central piece since he got here.

like i said, if Dipo or Fournier show this season that they're on the way to being as consistent as Butler, then we don't need him. (side note - i think people really need to start giving Fournier the respect he deserves as a legitimate candidate for that role.)

but a good manager should be looking a few seasons in, with several contingencies. how long do you wait for someone to develop before deciding to move on? and if you can add immediate impact now, whilst still developing that same player in the wings and on a rookie scale contract, what have you got to lose?

i'm not suggesting we risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but all of the current top teams had prospects that blossomed and showed their star potential quickly. i think it's worth keeping tabs on the development of our guys so we don't risk sailing a sinking ship for a few seasons longer than we need to. that's not to say that i'm not rooting for our guys to succeed.

[shadrock]

We already have two players in the Kawhi/Butler mould on our squad.

[darthmerrick]

I think right now I would take Butler over Harris. The Bulls will eventually show him the money. It's not like our situation with Tobias where he's determined to go to a bigger market.

Kawai? I think the spurs match him at any cost.

[MagicMatty]

Forget Butler. We need this guy. Go UCF!!!

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF5Bdl7WH1k[/youtube]

No, no we dont...This guy attends high school near me and I've seen a couple of games, and lets just say....No

[Dr Music]

Does it really matter? This team obviously is not going anywhere for a long time. All these rising stars we have that were going to make us a playoff team obviously are not getting it done. Some nice pieces in Vuc and Tobias but the rest seem like busts. Seems our golden boy GM is not so brilliant afterall. Not being cynical, just how it looks. The whole league is so watered down and weak, especially the east and this team still cant compete. at least looks at the Bucks, so young and doing quite good.

[MagicFan101]

somewhere....people are wondering the same thing about Tobias

Butler is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league... and is averaging more points than Harris... and is doing so on a better team.

Still...

If we were able to get Butler to play alongside Dipo, we would have a fantastic offense / defense rotation at the guard positions. This would enable us with a bit more flexibility at the forward spots. Harris will never be a good defender but he has shown improvement. So if we signed a guy like Butler first, I would be fine with Henny matching any offer to Harris for more offense to what should soon be one of the best defensive teams in the league.

[MagicFan101]

There's just barely enough playing time for Payton, Oladipo and Fournier to get theirs. Adding Butler to the mix is going to cause disharmony.

I still see Fournier as a very solid backup SG. I love EP as much as anyone but he still needs a lot of work. At the end of a new contract to Butler EP would still be just 24 years old! So letting him play behind Dipo for a few years wouldn't be the worst situation.

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some small ball lineups of:

Payton
Dipo
Butler
Harris
Vuc

[tiderulz]

EP would still be just 24 years old! So letting him play behind Dipo for a few years wouldn't be the worst situation.

it would be, because Dipo is not good at PG

[MagicFan101]

EP would still be just 24 years old! So letting him play behind Dipo for a few years wouldn't be the worst situation.

it would be, because Dipo is not good at PG

I'm sure if you think hard enough you can come up with a situation worse than this...

[94_MagicFan]

Prefer milsap

[Skin]

Jimmy Butler hasn't always been used in this fashion - Dipo has been a central piece since he got here.

like i said, if Dipo or Fournier show this season that they're on the way to being as consistent as Butler, then we don't need him. (side note - i think people really need to start giving Fournier the respect he deserves as a legitimate candidate for that role.)

but a good manager should be looking a few seasons in, with several contingencies. how long do you wait for someone to develop before deciding to move on? and if you can add immediate impact now, whilst still developing that same player in the wings and on a rookie scale contract, what have you got to lose?

i'm not suggesting we risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but all of the current top teams had prospects that blossomed and showed their star potential quickly. i think it's worth keeping tabs on the development of our guys so we don't risk sailing a sinking ship for a few seasons longer than we need to. that's not to say that i'm not rooting for our guys to succeed.

Saying Dipo has been a central piece around here is not saying much. He's had 1 year playing a position that he's not supposed to be playing with minutes behind Jameer. This is Butler's 4th year in the league and you're trying to make it sound like "he's successful now because he's finally getting the chance". All the while, capping off Oladipo as already having had his chance because "he's been a central piece" around here. Screw that logic.

If you don't believe the combination we have between Oladipo and Fournier at SG is enough, then you have to stop being a Debbie Doubter. Even if you are unsure that Dipo has it in him, Fournier is proving that right now. We have Fournier under contract until 2017 and Dipo till 2018. Jimmy Butler is playing great right now, but that's not where we need to lock up our cap resources. Plus, I highly doubt he leaves Chicago.

As for your stars that showed their potential quickly, I'd say we're well on our way in that department with our collection of young talent. EP, Dipo, Fournier, Harris, AG, KOQ, Vuc... they've all showed it. Even more than Butler did early in his career.

[Bensational]

Jimmy Butler hasn't always been used in this fashion - Dipo has been a central piece since he got here.

like i said, if Dipo or Fournier show this season that they're on the way to being as consistent as Butler, then we don't need him. (side note - i think people really need to start giving Fournier the respect he deserves as a legitimate candidate for that role.)

but a good manager should be looking a few seasons in, with several contingencies. how long do you wait for someone to develop before deciding to move on? and if you can add immediate impact now, whilst still developing that same player in the wings and on a rookie scale contract, what have you got to lose?

i'm not suggesting we risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but all of the current top teams had prospects that blossomed and showed their star potential quickly. i think it's worth keeping tabs on the development of our guys so we don't risk sailing a sinking ship for a few seasons longer than we need to. that's not to say that i'm not rooting for our guys to succeed.

Saying Dipo has been a central piece around here is not saying much. He's had 1 year playing a position that he's not supposed to be playing with minutes behind Jameer. This is Butler's 4th year in the league and you're trying to make it sound like "he's successful now because he's finally getting the chance". All the while, capping off Oladipo as already having had his chance because "he's been a central piece" around here. Screw that logic.

If you don't believe the combination we have between Oladipo and Fournier at SG is enough, then you have to stop being a Debbie Doubter. Even if you are unsure that Dipo has it in him, Fournier is proving that right now. We have Fournier under contract until 2017 and Dipo till 2018. Jimmy Butler is playing great right now, but that's not where we need to lock up our cap resources. Plus, I highly doubt he leaves Chicago.

As for your stars that showed their potential quickly, I'd say we're well on our way in that department with our collection of young talent. EP, Dipo, Fournier, Harris, AG, KOQ, Vuc... they've all showed it. Even more than Butler did early in his career.

the whole "he's playing a position he's never played before" argument doesn't hold water. if we were measuring him as a PG, sure. but we're measuring him as a guard. did the positions he played previously not involve shooting, driving, or finishing at the line? of course they did. his lack of reliable ability in those departments aren't anything to do with the fact he's got to look to pass once in a while!

None of those guys are on Durant, LeBron, Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Wade, Dirk, Duncan, Parker, Dwight levels. I'm not talking about 1 off flashes of potential, i'm talking about guys being legit stars who are capable of carrying a team. Vuc and Harris have shown that capacity, but not at the level of the guys mentioned above just yet, and who's to say they ever will? they've got this season to show what they can do, and if it doesn't look like we've got that guy who can carry the team, how long do we sit and wait for someone to step up? how long are you prepared to wait?

This is all hypothetical talk anyway. Henny doesn't seem like the sort of guy to sign a big contract player - he'd rather spend that money on Frye and Ben Gordon ZING!!!

[Skin]

Jimmy Butler hasn't always been used in this fashion - Dipo has been a central piece since he got here.

like i said, if Dipo or Fournier show this season that they're on the way to being as consistent as Butler, then we don't need him. (side note - i think people really need to start giving Fournier the respect he deserves as a legitimate candidate for that role.)

but a good manager should be looking a few seasons in, with several contingencies. how long do you wait for someone to develop before deciding to move on? and if you can add immediate impact now, whilst still developing that same player in the wings and on a rookie scale contract, what have you got to lose?

i'm not suggesting we risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but all of the current top teams had prospects that blossomed and showed their star potential quickly. i think it's worth keeping tabs on the development of our guys so we don't risk sailing a sinking ship for a few seasons longer than we need to. that's not to say that i'm not rooting for our guys to succeed.

Saying Dipo has been a central piece around here is not saying much. He's had 1 year playing a position that he's not supposed to be playing with minutes behind Jameer. This is Butler's 4th year in the league and you're trying to make it sound like "he's successful now because he's finally getting the chance". All the while, capping off Oladipo as already having had his chance because "he's been a central piece" around here. Screw that logic.

If you don't believe the combination we have between Oladipo and Fournier at SG is enough, then you have to stop being a Debbie Doubter. Even if you are unsure that Dipo has it in him, Fournier is proving that right now. We have Fournier under contract until 2017 and Dipo till 2018. Jimmy Butler is playing great right now, but that's not where we need to lock up our cap resources. Plus, I highly doubt he leaves Chicago.

As for your stars that showed their potential quickly, I'd say we're well on our way in that department with our collection of young talent. EP, Dipo, Fournier, Harris, AG, KOQ, Vuc... they've all showed it. Even more than Butler did early in his career.

the whole "he's playing a position he's never played before" argument doesn't hold water. if we were measuring him as a PG, sure. but we're measuring him as a guard. did the positions he played previously not involve shooting, driving, or finishing at the line? of course they did. his lack of reliable ability in those departments aren't anything to do with the fact he's got to look to pass once in a while!

None of those guys are on Durant, LeBron, Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Wade, Dirk, Duncan, Parker, Dwight levels. I'm not talking about 1 off flashes of potential, i'm talking about guys being legit stars who are capable of carrying a team. Vuc and Harris have shown that capacity, but not at the level of the guys mentioned above just yet, and who's to say they ever will? they've got this season to show what they can do, and if it doesn't look like we've got that guy who can carry the team, how long do we sit and wait for someone to step up? how long are you prepared to wait?

This is all hypothetical talk anyway. Henny doesn't seem like the sort of guy to sign a big contract player - he'd rather spend that money on Frye and Ben Gordon ZING!!!

Did the Oladipo PG project end or something? How can you say the argument that he hasn't played the position doesn't hold any water when he's still playing the position? Until he becomes the bonafide starting SG, I don't know how you can say that he's not being measured as a PG. I know you want to measure him as a Guard and blur the lines, but the way I see it is that he's still being forced to take on the role of PG more than he's taking on the role of SG and by nature a PG is not really who he is. It's certainly not the way to speed up his development as an NBA player. It's forcing him to learn and hopefully benefit him and us down the line, but at the same time, it's holding him back.

I don't think it was the original plan for Dipo to keep playing PG, but Fournier's wonderful play has certainly altered that course with JV showing so far that he favors Fournier to be our starting SG. ...and giving both of them playing time together is the real coaching challenge that I see. Because personally, I want Payton to be starting at PG all the time. Which means Dipo or Fournier will have to come off the bench. I still think there's plenty of minutes to keep them both happy, and maybe Dipo's continuance at PG is the solution to finding minutes for him.

No doubt, Dipo has to sharpen up his game and improve in a lot of areas... and I think it's fair that Fournier starts. I just don't think it's fair to already talk about writing Dipo off and start talks of bringing in a guy like Jimmy Butler. It's not just hypothetical, it's entirely premature.

...and I think anyone who criticizes the Frye and Gordon signings 17 games into the season is being short sighted...especially with Gordon who isn't expected to be a fixture here... and honestly, I don't think you will see us sign any superstar FA like the caliber in the list you made... not in this rebuilding era of Magic basketball. I think you're out of luck with that one. Unless it's one that is past their prime... Like GS did signing Iggy or WAS did signing Pierce. I could see that.

[Bensational]

Did the Oladipo PG project end or something? How can you say the argument that he hasn't played the position doesn't hold any water when he's still playing the position? Until he becomes the bonafide starting SG, I don't know how you can say that he's not being measured as a PG. I know you want to measure him as a Guard and blur the lines, but the way I see it is that he's still being forced to take on the role of PG more than he's taking on the role of SG and by nature a PG is not really who he is. It's certainly not the way to speed up his development as an NBA player. It's forcing him to learn and hopefully benefit him and us down the line, but at the same time, it's holding him back.

I don't think it was the original plan for Dipo to keep playing PG, but Fournier's wonderful play has certainly altered that course with JV showing so far that he favors Fournier to be our starting SG. ...and giving both of them playing time together is the real coaching challenge that I see. Because personally, I want Payton to be starting at PG all the time. Which means Dipo or Fournier will have to come off the bench. I still think there's plenty of minutes to keep them both happy, and maybe Dipo's continuance at PG is the solution to finding minutes for him.

No doubt, Dipo has to sharpen up his game and improve in a lot of areas... and I think it's fair that Fournier starts. I just don't think it's fair to already talk about writing Dipo off and start talks of bringing in a guy like Jimmy Butler. It's not just hypothetical, it's entirely premature.

...and I think anyone who criticizes the Frye and Gordon signings 17 games into the season is being short sighted...especially with Gordon who isn't expected to be a fixture here... and honestly, I don't think you will see us sign any superstar FA like the caliber in the list you made... not in this rebuilding era of Magic basketball. I think you're out of luck with that one. Unless it's one that is past their prime... Like GS did signing Iggy or WAS did signing Pierce. I could see that.

i agree with most of that. but:

- Dipo isn't playing PG though, he's playing Guard. if the gameplan was for him to become strictly a PG we'd see a much greater emphasis on him setting up plays and looking for others, but he's clearly being treated like any other playmaking wing. short of bringing the ball up the court, what he's doing once they settle in to an offense is no different to what LeBron/Wade/Harden/Kobe/etc all do. they look to create plays, with a heavy influence on finding their own shot. how differently would we be using him if he were a SG? Fournier is taking on many of the same roles, initiating offense, looking for his own shot and others (mostly Vuc), but he's doing it well. it's not like our offense is that complicated - dump it to Vuc, drive and drop off/kick, or run a pick and pop with Frye. Dipo's struggles are a combination of his abilities, and the mask.

- who's talking about writing Dipo off? bringing in a better prospect doesn't mean you don't continue to develop your talent. it just makes you a deeper team, with assets to spare. if Dipo can't develop as a 6th man, he won't develop at all. he's got plenty of time and opportunity to show he can be a star, but if he can't, and this team feels it needs someone who can score 20ppg on high efficiency, hit 3's, get to the line 10 times a game, make passes and play all-defensive team defense, it would be passive to wait and hope one of our guys becomes that rather than going and getting what we need.

- there's different levels of criticism of the Frye signing. do I see value in him and a role within the team? sure. would i have rather seen that $12M spent on Millsap? definitely. it's not like signing Frye last season was make or break for this team, so we had the freedom to wait until next year.

- agreed that we won't be seeing a major signing. doesn't mean i can't discuss the notions/benefits of it on a discussion board.