Time to Bench Oladipo

[ezzzp]

Never denied that Fournier's offensive numbers are more efficient. I think any eye ball test could easily see that he is more gifted in that area. But Oladipo is a better defender. No need to be defensive. It's not a knock on Fournier. Not saying Oladipo is Tony Allen either. This isn't a world where hyperbole is the only answer.

Last season Oladipo showed plenty enough to prove he can hang in this league as a defender. As a rookie finishing 9th in the league in steals is a good sign. 9th among PGs in Defensive Win Shares right after CP3 is not to shabby either.

wasn't trying to be defensive...only making my point that right now we have nothing to show that Oladipo will be a better starting SG option than Fournier will be in two years.

Any prediction like that would require some sort of fortune telling. I don't have any gripes that Fournier is starting over Oladipo. I just saw you as being defensive because the moment I said Oladipo's defense was better than Fournier's you took it as Fournier not being good at defense at all and on the other hand, making it seem like I was calling Oladipo some all world defensive stopper. Too extreme on both sides.

No, you compared Evan Fournier's defense to JJ Redick's. I gave you multiple reasons as to why your statement is incorrect. That has nothing to do with me being defensive, it is correcting a very uninformed statement.

[G-Heel]

Oladipo isn't the reason why we been losing. He was part of it, but benching him wouldn't changed anything.

[majortom71]

Oladipo isn't the reason why we been losing. He was part of it, but benching him wouldn't changed anything.

I guess he means making him bench rather than starter, not that Oladipo should not play in a game type benching.
Right OP?

[NBAchamps2017]

Boys and girls give him some time to find his way. He's the leader on this team, wherever he goes this team goes. Do not blame him for the loses and people losing production. This team will lose alot regardless. Just wait till he finds his groove. He'll find it; should be there somewhere.

completely disagree. He isnt "the" leader, he is a leader. And he isnt good enough offensively for the statement of "wherever he goes this team goes". And yes, when he is shooting 5-17, he is a reason for other people losing their production.

Like it or not he is "the" leader of this team now. Not "good enough"; that's highly debatable/maybe. His play will determine how our season will play out. Limiting his minutes will not gather more wins. What we need from him is more of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayF4IGyNAjU

[cedric76]

I love DIPO but he is over rated on this board big time

[Bensational]

Boys and girls give him some time to find his way. He's the leader on this team, wherever he goes this team goes. Do not blame him for the loses and people losing production. This team will lose alot regardless. Just wait till he finds his groove. He'll find it; should be there somewhere.

Wait, so we don't blame him for losses despite him being "the leader"? But if we start winning, we celebrate him as the leader, right?

I want that job.

[tiderulz]

Boys and girls give him some time to find his way. He's the leader on this team, wherever he goes this team goes. Do not blame him for the loses and people losing production. This team will lose alot regardless. Just wait till he finds his groove. He'll find it; should be there somewhere.

completely disagree. He isnt "the" leader, he is a leader. And he isnt good enough offensively for the statement of "wherever he goes this team goes". And yes, when he is shooting 5-17, he is a reason for other people losing their production.

Like it or not he is "the" leader of this team now. Not "good enough"; that's highly debatable/maybe. His play will determine how our season will play out. Limiting his minutes will not gather more wins. What we need from him is more of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayF4IGyNAjU

who says he is "the" leader? again, he is one of the leaders, not "the" leader

[Skin]

wasn't trying to be defensive...only making my point that right now we have nothing to show that Oladipo will be a better starting SG option than Fournier will be in two years.

Any prediction like that would require some sort of fortune telling. I don't have any gripes that Fournier is starting over Oladipo. I just saw you as being defensive because the moment I said Oladipo's defense was better than Fournier's you took it as Fournier not being good at defense at all and on the other hand, making it seem like I was calling Oladipo some all world defensive stopper. Too extreme on both sides.

No, you compared Evan Fournier's defense to JJ Redick's. I gave you multiple reasons as to why your statement is incorrect. That has nothing to do with me being defensive, it is correcting a very uninformed statement.

Oh please. I compared Fournier to Redick in the sense that they are better team defenders than man defenders. I didn't expect you to take a tape measure and stack them up side by side to compare every little difference. Nobody is exactly the same. Do you have an issue against saying Fournier is a better team defender than man defender?

[Skin]

sounds more like your gripe is with Dipo not being a superstar. it's like you've got blinders on and refuse to accept the possibility. you've got all these excuses for him, and then fail to acknowledge that Fournier contradicts that.

Fournier has plenty of plays where he runs the offense - but he's not struggling the way Dipo is. Fournier runs point several times, but the "he's being forced to learn a new position!!!" argument isn't trotted out for him.

if Fournier continues to grow as a player then Butler is redundant. agreed. but this team, by design, NEEDS an option to be a constant triple threat from the perimeter. after a full season of growth and evaluation, we should know if our guys will live up to that requirement - and if they don't, what's your plan? keep waiting? keep hoping? go back into the draft?

No, I just refuse to accept the possibility that between Dipo AND Fournier that we don't have enough. That we still need to throw big money dollars at a guy like Butler to add to that mix. I started this off by saying we barely have enough minutes for Payton, Oladipo and Fournier. I don't think we need to throw max (or close to it) dollars at that position in order to improve our depth.

The main gripe of all is that people like you have no patience for the process. I think we're already seeing signs of being a better team this year. So why is the process being bashed? What I see us building is a sustainable model. What you're asking for is an instant, but short lived model.

why do you refuse to accept that possibility? what have they shown you that you're prepared to bank the future of this franchise on it at the expense of considering other options? are you seriously convinced that they're championship caliber franchise players already? because if so, you're imagining it.

this discussion was about Dipo going to the bench because he hasn't been playing well lately. you brought Butler into this one.

and how is adding a 25 year old 20ppg scorer any less sustainable than waiting on young guys to develop? lol. i don't think you know what sustainable means. what happens when our own guys become 20ppg scorers? do we need to move them on so we can continue developing more 'sustainable' youth?

Because it's entirely stupid. Oladipo is 7 games into his 2nd year and Fournier is in the middle of a breakout season.

Go ahead and talk about how they aren't good enough NOW and how we should add Butler if it makes you feel good.

At least we can both openly admit it's not going to happen.

[ezzzp]

Any prediction like that would require some sort of fortune telling. I don't have any gripes that Fournier is starting over Oladipo. I just saw you as being defensive because the moment I said Oladipo's defense was better than Fournier's you took it as Fournier not being good at defense at all and on the other hand, making it seem like I was calling Oladipo some all world defensive stopper. Too extreme on both sides.

No, you compared Evan Fournier's defense to JJ Redick's. I gave you multiple reasons as to why your statement is incorrect. That has nothing to do with me being defensive, it is correcting a very uninformed statement.

Oh please. I compared Fournier to Redick in the sense that they are better team defenders than man defenders. I didn't expect you to take a tape measure and stack them up side by side to compare every little difference. Nobody is exactly the same. Do you have an issue against saying Fournier is a better team defender than man defender?

When you compare players, specifically on their skill set (which is what you did), the way that analysis works is by taking facts and comparing them to other facts. Length and speed matter when talking about defensive skill set.

When you say that Fournier is a better team defender than a man-to-man defender you have zero statistical proof of that. Not that it matters as in the NBA all teams play team defense.

You are defining man-to-man defense as if that is a greater skill than team defender and as if that was what defines a good defender. Which is completely inaccurate - having a better ability with man-to-man means nothing if the player is unable to grasp the teams defensive system; and vise versa. It is a combination of both that defines what is a good defender.

[Orlwillbeback]

Oladipo is 7 games into his 2nd year and Fournier is in the middle of a breakout season.

Go ahead and talk about how they aren't good enough NOW and how we should add Butler if it makes you feel good.

At least we can both openly admit it's not going to happen.

Fournier is no longer "breaking out" he has completely fallen back to earth after his fast start. His per is now below what it was his rookie season.

[Orlwillbeback]

I love DIPO but he is over rated on this board big time

all this talk of being the next wade or westbrook or a superstar needs to end. He does not have that kind of talent.

[CourtsideTV]

I love DIPO but he is over rated on this board big time

all this talk of being the next wade or westbrook or a superstar needs to end. He does not have that kind of talent.

lmao. and u know because?

[Orlwillbeback]

I love DIPO but he is over rated on this board big time

all this talk of being the next wade or westbrook or a superstar needs to end. He does not have that kind of talent.

lmao. and u know because?

look at the rookie years of respective supertstars and you usually see dominant talent show up in the stats very early. Dipo can be a solid player but he does not have the kind of talent to be a star. He does not have the skillset.

[Bensational]

Because it's entirely stupid. Oladipo is 7 games into his 2nd year and Fournier is in the middle of a breakout season.

Go ahead and talk about how they aren't good enough NOW and how we should add Butler if it makes you feel good.

At least we can both openly admit it's not going to happen.

you speak with absolute conviction and refuse to believe that they won't be stars and your only real justification for that is... they haven't played much. in that case Harkless and Nicholson must be MVPs just waiting to be unleashed?

you need to get over the idea that we've got all the answers on our roster right now. if we did, we wouldn't be struggling so much. right now we're young OKC without Durant. we're young GSW without Curry. we're young Houston without Harden or Dwight. we're young SAS without Duncan. you're adamant that we've got one of those guys on this team, and seem to get defensive whenever people mention alternative options. and your whole reason is that they haven't played enough to show they can be that person.

here's the thing, though. nobody has said they can't continue to play and prove that they are that person. nobody has said we should trade Dipo or Fournier. i don't think anybody has said that they aren't still guys with star potential. the idea floated was "should we throw a MAX at Butler", and if he continues playing at his current level, and our guys don't reach that level, stay at their current level, or regress, you still don't think it's an option? we just give them, say, 5-6 seasons to see if they can figure it out or something?

if you can't say "yeah cool, let's see what these guys can do and reevaluate at the end of the season, and in the mean time we'll start to compile a list of contingencies", and all you believe is that you need to stick to the plan like it's doctrine, then i think you're just really out of touch with what it takes to build and manage systems.

[CourtsideTV]

all this talk of being the next wade or westbrook or a superstar needs to end. He does not have that kind of talent.

lmao. and u know because?

look at the rookie years of respective supertstars and you usually see dominant talent show up in the stats very early. Dipo can be a solid player but he does not have the kind of talent to be a star. He does not have the skillset.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlU46dJkKQA&spfreload=10[/youtube]

he may never be wade like but he can be a solid all-star

[ezzzp]

Oladipo is 7 games into his 2nd year and Fournier is in the middle of a breakout season.

Go ahead and talk about how they aren't good enough NOW and how we should add Butler if it makes you feel good.

At least we can both openly admit it's not going to happen.

Fournier is no longer "breaking out" he has completely fallen back to earth after his fast start. His per is now below what it was his rookie season.

Its not coincidental that Fournier's fall back began the game that Oladipo returned.

Oladipo is a ball dominant point that isn't efficient, not a great passer, and kills ball movement. You only need to look at the highlight video someone posted earlier. I love his tenacity and will to win - and I think he'll improve in all of these categories; but lets not be naive about why the offense has screeched to a halt with Frye, Vuc and Fournier all dropping down since his return.

Fournier is now being used much less the way he was pre-Oladipo, and now is now forced to play mostly in the same role he was with Denver.

[akhenaten]

Oladipo is 7 games into his 2nd year and Fournier is in the middle of a breakout season.

Go ahead and talk about how they aren't good enough NOW and how we should add Butler if it makes you feel good.

At least we can both openly admit it's not going to happen.

Fournier is no longer "breaking out" he has completely fallen back to earth after his fast start. His per is now below what it was his rookie season.

Its not coincidental that Fournier's fall back began the game that Oladipo returned.

Oladipo is a ball dominant point that isn't efficient, not a great passer, and kills ball movement. You only need to look at the highlight video someone posted earlier. I love his tenacity and will to win - and I think he'll improve in all of these categories; but lets not be naive about why the offense has screeched to a halt with Frye, Vuc and Fournier all dropping down since his return.

Fournier is now being used much less the way he was pre-Oladipo, and now is now forced to play mostly in the same role he was with Denver.

This is spot-on. I love Oladipo, but the team has played much worse since his return, and individual players, especially Fournier, have seen their production decline dramatically.

Oladipo has started the last 8 games. The Magic are 2-6 in those games, including a current 4-game losing streak. In the 6 games before Oladipo entered the starting lineup, the Magic were 4-2. And as we can all see, things are getting worse and not better.

We used a top-10 pick to draft a true point guard, and when he was starting, the team was playing better. Payton needs to be starting again at the point. And I don't care whether you bring Dipo or Fournier off the bench, but Payton needs to start at the point. If I were coach, Fournier would come off the bench because I think he would be a great scorer and facilitator for the second unit.

[rcklsscognition]

Everything projects oladipo to be a 15/5/4/2 guy. Looked like that in college, 1st year, and now. Everyone can keep coming up with excuses for why he isn't something other than that, but that's what he is. I think he winds up right around there for his career will have a few better seasons, like 16 or 17ppg, 5ast, 4 boards, 2 steals.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app

[MellowRose]

Everything projects oladipo to be a 15/5/4/2 guy. Looked like that in college, 1st year, and now. Everyone can keep coming up with excuses for why he isn't something other than that, but that's what he is. I think he winds up right around there for his career will have a few better seasons, like 16 or 17ppg, 5ast, 4 boards, 2 steals.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app

Those are Iguodala type numbers. I'll definitely be happy with that from Oladipo, as long as his efficiency is up there as well.