[Basketball Insiders] "Don

[tooler]

Hang on... How does JV not know how to get his team to play up tempo? The idea of waiting until they feel comfortable just seems lazy. Sure you can ease them into it, but that requires a bit more force than the spirit of Obi Wan is able to suggest.

You drill it into them and make them feel comfortable through the repetition. Not wait until they feel so uncomfortable with the painful losses of playing slow that they bring it out like a hail Mary play. What a joke.

I'm not gonna criticize too much because I'm just happy we're doing it finally. But I'm not buying that JV couldn't have instigated this kind of change much earlier.

Yeah it's weird. Right strategy, but maybe he didn't have the chops to make the horse drink.

Just watching the Portland game again. Payton actually didn't come in until 5:30 and the jets didn't turn on until the 3rd quarter (aside from Elfrid's huge defense on the last play).

Portland announcers in the 3rd: "You know Orlando are 28th in the league in points, but the way they're running, you wonder why they're not scoring more."

[Blue_and_Whte]

I read it somewhere, i thought here but it could have been another forum, and i said it in a thread. At any rate, while trying to find the original place i saw it, i pulled up plenty of articles from back in October and November where JV is on record saying this is how we wanted to play. Why it has just now started to occur is a guess, but Payton saying he thought of it like it was an original idea of his is not really accurate when you have several articles from months ago saying it was our plan.

here's one from October: http://www.nba.com/magic/denton-magic-want-play-faster-pace-season

I remember too. That's what makes this so strange.

I remember there was one preseason game where a reporter brought up 20 fast break points and Jacque said "it's a start" with a smile as if he wanted more. We were all excited. Then came the first 38 games: walk the ball up the floor while the coach explains the entire play to Elfrid.

I mean, supposedly we have two other point guards on this team. Why can't Luke Ridnour run for a 3 minute stretch? Oladipo?

Yeah, it's a mystery but it wasn't something they just came up with. Maybe the place i read it just drew that conclusion that EP wasn't comfortable with it, or maybe JV just overcoached. idk but just telling the story as i saw it.

here's another from Dec http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2014/12/1/7312361/orlando-magic-2014-nba-stats-analysis-elfrid-payton-aaron-gordon-injury

It's not directly about the pace so i will just post the part where they talk about it.

I hinted at offense as being an issue, and it has been. The Magic currently rank 26th in offensive efficiency, posting 98.7 points per 100 possessions: only the Charlotte Hornets, Detroit Pistons, injury-plagued Oklahoma City Thunder, and Philadelphia 76ers score fewer points per 100 possessions. Head coach Jacque Vaughn has talked about wanting his team to play a bit faster this season, but they haven't done so consistently. They currently sit in a tie for 17th in pace, averaging 95.4 possessions per game, equaling the amount the Los Angeles Clippers and Atlanta Hawks, two projected playoff teams, average.

I don't think JV is gonna hog credit or whatever but it's on record that it was at least in his plan. I don't think he's the best coach but we can't say he didn't see this when it's clear that he did. Why we didn't do it is the real question.

If people were paying attention they'd remember that Vaughn set that tone at the beginning of the season and he's been quoted as saying the same thing over the course of the season. This goes back to me saying....again....That integrating a lot of new players, including a rookie staring PG, isn't easy. You people think you can just throw 7 (or whatever it is) new players together and it'll just work from day one against experienced NBA defenses? Holy ****...If you watched any of the games prior to this little run and listen closely, or at the game sitting lower bowl you can physically hear Vaughn yelling at them to push...

This is what Vaughn has been wanting them to do from day one, not some brand new idea that Payton invented.

[Blue_and_Whte]

But in case you haven't watched any of the post game videos that AdamTheGreek posted, it looks pretty obvious that the players are going out of their way to avoid praising Jacque.
...

I really get the feeling the players don't like Jacque.

I thought that at one point too, but they were vocal before the Portland game that their play wasn't his fault too. There are quotes in one of these threads from Tobias and Vuc about how he can't come on the court and play for them, and being supportive of him. This was after the horrible home game.

The players like Jacque. This is just stuff people search for to not have to give credit to a coach whom they've already decided they don't like.

[tooler]

If you watched any of the games prior to this little run and listen closely, or at the game sitting lower bowl you can physically hear Vaughn yelling at them to push...

This is what Vaughn has been wanting them to do from day one, not some brand new idea that Payton invented.

If you read anything I wrote, you'd know I agreed with you. Jacque just couldn't get the team to respond. They finally did when Elfrid decided to press and run on made baskets and everyone saw how well it worked.

[Blue_and_Whte]

If you watched any of the games prior to this little run and listen closely, or at the game sitting lower bowl you can physically hear Vaughn yelling at them to push...

This is what Vaughn has been wanting them to do from day one, not some brand new idea that Payton invented.

If you read anything I wrote, you'd know I agreed with you. Jacque just couldn't get the team to respond. They finally did when Elfrid decided to press and run on made baskets and everyone saw how well it worked.

I don't know....Maybe he needs to show more toughness and now is...I don't know. Either way, I don't think its this big controversy people are trying to make it out to be, or better yet, want it to be. Nobody has inside knowledge, and we don't know what's going on in the locker room so. It's working and in the grand scheme its all I care about.

[woosah]

If people were paying attention they'd remember that Vaughn set that tone at the beginning of the season and he's been quoted as saying the same thing over the course of the season. This goes back to me saying....again....That integrating a lot of new players, including a rookie staring PG, isn't easy. You people think you can just throw 7 (or whatever it is) new players together and it'll just work from day one against experienced NBA defenses? Holy ****...If you watched any of the games prior to this little run and listen closely, or at the game sitting lower bowl you can physically hear Vaughn yelling at them to push...

This is what Vaughn has been wanting them to do from day one, not some brand new idea that Payton invented.

haha so maybe it was one of your posts that i read that talked about Jv waning Elf to run. I know i read it somewhere but can't find that quote for the life of me. Anyway it is clear that it was in his plans so we shouldn't say he didn't know that it was a good plan. He did. That doesn't mean i think he's a good coach but i'm not gonna make up things to criticize him for.

[woosah]

If you watched any of the games prior to this little run and listen closely, or at the game sitting lower bowl you can physically hear Vaughn yelling at them to push...

This is what Vaughn has been wanting them to do from day one, not some brand new idea that Payton invented.

If you read anything I wrote, you'd know I agreed with you. Jacque just couldn't get the team to respond. They finally did when Elfrid decided to press and run on made baskets and everyone saw how well it worked.

I don't know....Maybe he needs to show more toughness and now is...I don't know. Either way, I don't think its this big controversy people are trying to make it out to be, or better yet, want it to be. Nobody has inside knowledge, and we don't know what's going on in the locker room so. It's working and in the grand scheme its all I care about.

Nah i don't think it's a controversy. Anytime there are contradictory statements people are going to try to figure out why, that's all. I don't think we will be seeing this headline anywhere, "Orlando Magic Pace Gate: who really decided to run?" and anyone making a huge deal about it. It's just fan talk.

[tooler]

No controversy. Just extremely curious based on comments the players made after the Chicago game. I'm like, uh, what, your rookie point guard is the genesis of the 121 points you just scored against Chicago? There's a story here!

Like I said, they would've figured it out eventually. Elf isn't some genius basketball mind. But I'm glad he chose the Portland game to lead the way. These last few games have been fun.

[Hogified05]

All of this scoring is fun and dandy but these last 4 games we've given up over 100 also. The last two over 110. I contribute that more to the front court players not playing a lick of defense but no championship team has every won playing like this for seasons and in the playoffs. They have to tighten up on defense.

I think you will see that change once AG gets back and he inserts himself. From the little time I saw at the beginning of the year he is an ELITE defender. People can't score on him. And he will help protect the rim better. He will never be a Dwight or Ibaka rim protector be he has the ability and will help us in that aspect.

And with Elfrid and Oladipo harassing people up top I think our defense will improve. I don't think it will ever be elite defense without that big rim protector like Dwight was but it will be more then adequate enough to hold up our new found scoring if we keep that up.

[GANGSTERDOG]

Denton wrote a story with some quotes for those that don't want to watch the interviews: http://www.nba.com/magic/news/oladipo-w ... really-fun

Here's my new theory: Jacque was pushing on a string. He mentions how everyone has to buy into the idea of running or it doesn't work.

"I think it had to be a collective effort and a collective thought from the guys," Vaughn said. "They feel that this is something that they can live in. Until the guys feel it, it’s not going to work. So, for us, they feel it’s pretty tough for us to be in games, not be able to score and play at a slow pace."

So he thinks he's done all he can as a coach but the players haven't responded to him. That's concerning about his ability to coach, but whatever.

Then the Portland game happens. They suck. The Basketball Insiders story said Elfrid decided to take out his frustrations on Lillard. And according to Frye, Elfrid suggested he could run on makes and misses. Everyone supports the idea.

Here's the money quote, from Vucevic:

"It turned around pretty quickly for us, but this is something that we’ve talked about and wanted to do for awhile," said Vucevic, who has scored 34, 33 and 25 points in the last three and has to have the early edge on nabbing the Eastern Conference Player of the Week award if he can keep it up. "It started with the guards pushing the pace and the bigs have followed them. Elfrid and Victor have done a good job. And once we saw that it worked, everybody bought into it. It’s turned around really quickly, but now we’ve got to keep it going."

Elfrid (and Victor) decided to pull on the string. The energy was contagious and the rest of the team followed.

So my theory is that Jacque laid the groundwork. It's something the team wanted to do and knew they'd do eventually. But they couldn't figure out how to go for it. Elfrid led the way and the rest is history.

I keep hearing " And than............ PORTLAND HAPPENED"

Apparently we were getting a beat down and than we turned Super Saiyan? Is that what happened?
I had to look back to see if we won even though I know we lost. Can someone post a Video?

[jgosche]

But in case you haven't watched any of the post game videos that AdamTheGreek posted, it looks pretty obvious that the players are going out of their way to avoid praising Jacque.
...

I really get the feeling the players don't like Jacque.

I thought that at one point too, but they were vocal before the Portland game that their play wasn't his fault too. There are quotes in one of these threads from Tobias and Vuc about how he can't come on the court and play for them, and being supportive of him. This was after the horrible home game.

The players like Jacque. This is just stuff people search for to not have to give credit to a coach whom they've already decided they don't like.

I don't think I've ever expressed anti-Jacque sentiments, I'm not pushing any agenda.

I'm saying I received "insider information", as you say, that flat out said the players don't like or respect Jacque.

[UCFJayBird]

Perhaps JV has wanted to push the tempo, but has held the team back so far because he felt they didn't know the playbook well enough to run it at a faster tempo. Maybe he was worried pushing the tempo would result in higher turnovers and wanted to wait until Elfrid was more comfortable.

The players may have decided "we're ready" and gone ahead and done it in Portland without his approval. That showed they were ready and now the coach has finally given the greenlight to play this way from the opening tip each night.

Just because JV said it was part of the plan doesn't mean he was implementing it right away. Just saying it's possible that it was part of JV's plan since the beginning, but it was Elf who gave the push necessary and proved they could do it now.

edit: and I don't think Oladipo could run this fast paced offense when the season started either. When he came back from injury he would turn the ball over a lot when pushing too fast. It took time for him to get acclimated to game speed again.

[Blue_and_Whte]

If people were paying attention they'd remember that Vaughn set that tone at the beginning of the season and he's been quoted as saying the same thing over the course of the season. This goes back to me saying....again....That integrating a lot of new players, including a rookie staring PG, isn't easy. You people think you can just throw 7 (or whatever it is) new players together and it'll just work from day one against experienced NBA defenses? Holy ****...If you watched any of the games prior to this little run and listen closely, or at the game sitting lower bowl you can physically hear Vaughn yelling at them to push...

This is what Vaughn has been wanting them to do from day one, not some brand new idea that Payton invented.

haha so maybe it was one of your posts that i read that talked about Jv waning Elf to run. I know i read it somewhere but can't find that quote for the life of me. Anyway it is clear that it was in his plans so we shouldn't say he didn't know that it was a good plan. He did. That doesn't mean i think he's a good coach but i'm not gonna make up things to criticize him for.

Yeah Again this isn't mean advocating for him to be our coach moving forward. Just giving credit where credit is due. If the coach is telling you to run then you **** run. Maybe they didn't want to start with a faster pace until Payton was better at protecting the ball. Who knows, but its logical and entirely possible.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Perhaps JV has wanted to push the tempo, but has held the team back so far because he felt they didn't know the playbook well enough to run it at a faster tempo. Maybe he was worried pushing the tempo would result in higher turnovers and wanted to wait until Elfrid was more comfortable.

The players may have decided "we're ready" and gone ahead and done it in Portland without his approval. That showed they were ready and now the coach has finally given the greenlight to play this way from the opening tip each night.

Just because JV said it was part of the plan doesn't mean he was implementing it right away. Just saying it's possible that it was part of JV's plan since the beginning, but it was Elf who gave the push necessary and proved they could do it now.

edit: and I don't think Oladipo could run this fast paced offense when the season started either. When he came back from injury he would turn the ball over a lot when pushing too fast. It took time for him to get acclimated to game speed again.

If there a certain level of trust some coaches let their players figure stuff out. There's always some leeway if there's a good relationship between player and coach.

[Blue_and_Whte]

I thought that at one point too, but they were vocal before the Portland game that their play wasn't his fault too. There are quotes in one of these threads from Tobias and Vuc about how he can't come on the court and play for them, and being supportive of him. This was after the horrible home game.

The players like Jacque. This is just stuff people search for to not have to give credit to a coach whom they've already decided they don't like.

I don't think I've ever expressed anti-Jacque sentiments, I'm not pushing any agenda.

I'm saying I received "insider information", as you say, that flat out said the players don't like or respect Jacque.

ok.

[jgosche]

Or don't believe me. Whateva. I've been on the forum for a couple years now I have no reason to lie to ya'll.

[Optimus_Steel]

All of this scoring is fun and dandy but these last 4 games we've given up over 100 also. The last two over 110. I contribute that more to the front court players not playing a lick of defense but no championship team has every won playing like this for seasons and in the playoffs. They have to tighten up on defense.

You need to brush up on your basketball. Its understood that if you are gonna push the pace you are going to score more and you will also give up more points too. There are more possessions for both teams so more chances to score, its not rocket science. What matters is that you scored enough easy and semi transition points to outscore the other team, perhaps push the pace so much that the other team gets tired and can't keep up. The majority of the better teams in the league are now playing faster paces.

[Optimus_Steel]

I love Elf. He has the right attitude and mindset. He wants to win really bad and will do whatever it takes to win. Perhaps he doesn't become an amazing scorer, but he will be one of the best players in the league because of his will and desire to do whatever it takes to win. Its obvious why Rob fell in love with him and wanted him so bad.

[OrlandO]

Or don't believe me. Whateva. I've been on the forum for a couple years now I have no reason to lie to ya'll.

I remember I had my doubts a while back because you appeared to have just joined the forum and your cousin(?) didn't have much of a rep back then. No reason not to believe you now though. I know your source can't come out and say controversial stuff himself, so I appreciate the inside scoop. The stuff he experiences behind the scenes and rumors he hears are certainly more credible than the assumptions we as fans come up with on realgm. I bet Adam has some juicy stories that he keeps to himself as well.

[ChosenSavior]

Can you imagine AG running the break with Payton and Dipo??

Pretty soon it will be a reality!

It will be a reality now cause he has been activated for tonight's game...