The Tobias Harris Situation

[Neon1]

Carmelo Anthony is the 11th-12th best scorer (ppg/tot pts) OF ALL TIME NBA HISTORY right now....why in the world are you using HIM as a measuring stick against Tobias Harris?

All people are arguing is if he is of even or above par of the players on THIS TEAM that are being considered core.

[MagicFan101]

Carmelo Anthony is the 11th-12th best scorer (ppg/tot pts) OF ALL TIME NBA HISTORY right now....why in the world are you using HIM as a measuring stick against Tobias Harris?

All people are arguing is if he is of even or above par of the players on THIS TEAM that are being considered core.

He clearly is today but we are terrible today so we shouldn't be overly locked into any one player on this roster.

Dipo, Elf and Gordon get a pass for now as they are still on rookie contracts.

The problem for Harris is that we have to make a decision now and there are a lot of question marks in a summer where a number of potential suitors have major spending money.

[eyriq]

You're right they're not the same type of player exactly, but bully SFs with range and a post game they are both, and that does make them similar when compared in context of other SFs in the league.

Has anyone used Layne Vashro's player comparison tool? It compares a current player to previous players.

http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/layne-vashros-nba-player-comparison-tool

Tobias in 2014-2015 compares to Jeff Green in 2009, 2007 Luol Deng, and 2009 Rudy Gay. Luol Deng and Wilson Chandler come up twice, Dirk also shows up. I played around with the weighting of certain stats and the players listed above went up and down in order but generally stayed in the top 5. Dirk was a top about half of the lists, as was Wilson Chandler.

How it works

The data includes all NBA player-seasons (at least 250 minutes played) with complete boxscore statistics going back to 1973. All values are standardized using Z-scores. When you select a player and a season, the model pulls that player-season and compares it to all other player-seasons in the data. It calculates the absolute difference between the focal player and all others in each category, then uses the average difference (weighted by the slider values) to give an overall ``similarity score.''

As an example, if you set ``Points'' to 1, ``Assists'' to 1, and ``Age'' to .5, and set all other measures to 0 the math will look like this

Similarity between X and Y = ( abs(PTS.x - PTS.y) + abs(AST.x - AST.y) + 0.5*abs(AGE.x - AGE.y) ) / 2.5

Sometimes two players will have surprisingly similar numbers, but one will be consistently a bit worse, or considerably worse in some key area. This results in close statistical comparisons that have wide gaps in actual player value. The “VAL” column in the comparisons helps identify these cases.

VAL is the relative value of each prospect measured in WS/48 and RAPM. The VAL column in the outputs gives the difference in Z-scores (i.e. 1 equals 1 standard deviation in value) between each comparison and the focal player. Think of this as the classic “Poor man’s”/”Rich man’s” comparison caveat. Positive values mean that the focal player had a better overall performance than the comparison. Negative values mean that the focal player had a worse overall performance than the comparison.

The top-50 comparisons update in real-time, so pick your player and watch the impact of different adjustment.

Very cool, thanks for sharing! He's basically built a dynamic k-means cluster analysis engine which returns and then ranks players within the same cluster based on proximity to the search. Very impressive.

[Neon1]

Carmelo Anthony is the 11th-12th best scorer (ppg/tot pts) OF ALL TIME NBA HISTORY right now....why in the world are you using HIM as a measuring stick against Tobias Harris?

All people are arguing is if he is of even or above par of the players on THIS TEAM that are being considered core.

He clearly is today but we are terrible today so we shouldn't be overly locked into any one player on this roster.

Dipo, Elf and Gordon get a pass for now as they are still on rookie contracts.

The problem for Harris is that we have to make a decision now and there are a lot of question marks in a summer where a number of potential suitors have major spending money.

That's fine and all but, you cant just go throwing players out the window with only HOPES that you have better players waiting in the wings.

Tobias has proven that he is at a worst case a 17 and 6-8 rebound player (depending on where he spends majority of his mins) with above average efficiency and can get you these numbers without building or even focusing the offense around him. He has proven that at 22 years old.

Even IF we never push him into a larger role then that that production is valuable and not "easy" to replace, its going to take a real player to produce equal or better, and with that type of player you will also need to pay for his services.

He's a legitimate 3rd option RIGHT NOW, and has already proven he can produce at a high rate even when only left in that role. Letting players go only on a hope that Aaron Gordon (who we do not even know if he will be very good or even a capable starting SF or PF right now) or any other unproven player will overtake him, equal him, or even come close to him, is just not logical.

IF or WHEN you get a player of even near equal, or better ability is when you make moves, not before. Like you said, Aaron and Elfrid are YEARSSSSS away from being extended, the cap is set to skyrocket AND we were already below the salary floor even WITH the salary cap being status quo. By the time they are ready to be extended IF THEY ARE BETTER PLAYERS AT THAT POINT, then you make room if need be. He will have like a year left on his deal (which wont even be a disportionate salary around the league for a player of even his CURRENT ability.

There is not yet a better option available then Tobias Harris when you figure production, age and work ethic & character fit. What else are you going to do with the money that we HAVE TO SPEND anyways, sign another Channing Frye+Ben Gordon/Ridnour? What does that do for us?

We Aaron Gordon is neither ready or do we even know what position he really is good at yet. If were paying 8-10 million on a coach were trying to win now. Tobias is a top 3 player currently and is the youngest of the three. You sign him and let everybody grow into what they end up being. The time to figure out what to keep and what to move can get figured out at the more appropriate time, which is when all/most of our guys are leveling out to what they are (Vuc,Vic,Tobias,Elfrid,AG and our 15 pick).

Tobias floor is very good 17/7 we don't even know if the younger three guys coming in will even reach the level that Vuc/Dipo/Harris are currently at. People need to pump the brakes.

[Bensational]

It is not at all clear that "Harris knows how to play basketball at a higher level and more efficiently than all of them". If that were the case wouldn't we be better off with him on the court vs off? Oladipo made a huge leap in his sophomore season and all but made up the difference in production compared to Harris. Apologizing for Harris requires an over-reliance on the "mismanagement" bit while also requiring Oladipo and Vucevic to be placed in a poor light since they were clearly ahead of him in the pecking order. No thanks.

[snip]

With Harris, what are his comps? Carmelo Anthony? At the age of 22 dude averaged 29/6/4 on 48/27/81 percentages. Antwan Jamison? He averaged 25/9/2 on 44/30/72 percentages in his second rotation quality season.

It's clear as day - Oladipo was given free reign to do whatever he liked on offense. He literally dictated the play he wanted to happen 50% of the time he was on the court. Giving a player that much room to create offensive opportunities that favour them is a massive advantage to helping that player improve.

And then you want to compare Carmelo and Jamison to Harris, using their inflated stats to frame Harris in a negative light - but they were given the same freedom as Oladipo and they averaged over 20fgas a piece!

You're just blindly ignoring that Harris wasn't given as much involvement or opportunity to put his stamp on the offense as Oladipo and Vuc. The fact that Harris is elite in particular scoring fields and that these are areas we really didn't feature in his game is the most obvious sign that we weren't interested in gearing an offense around Harris at all.

Oladipo isn't elite at anything he does. What is the justification for forcing the offense to run through him? If he's not elite at any element, why the hell is he touching the ball more than any other player on the team?

[eyriq]

It is not at all clear that "Harris knows how to play basketball at a higher level and more efficiently than all of them". If that were the case wouldn't we be better off with him on the court vs off? Oladipo made a huge leap in his sophomore season and all but made up the difference in production compared to Harris. Apologizing for Harris requires an over-reliance on the "mismanagement" bit while also requiring Oladipo and Vucevic to be placed in a poor light since they were clearly ahead of him in the pecking order. No thanks.

[snip]

With Harris, what are his comps? Carmelo Anthony? At the age of 22 dude averaged 29/6/4 on 48/27/81 percentages. Antwan Jamison? He averaged 25/9/2 on 44/30/72 percentages in his second rotation quality season.

It's clear as day - Oladipo was given free reign to do whatever he liked on offense. He literally dictated the play he wanted to happen 50% of the time he was on the court. Giving a player that much room to create offensive opportunities that favour them is a massive advantage to helping that player improve.

And then you want to compare Carmelo and Jamison to Harris, using their inflated stats to frame Harris in a negative light - but they were given the same freedom as Oladipo and they averaged over 20fgas a piece!

You're just blindly ignoring that Harris wasn't given as much involvement or opportunity to put his stamp on the offense as Oladipo and Vuc. The fact that Harris is elite in particular scoring fields and that these are areas we really didn't feature in his game is the most obvious sign that we weren't interested in gearing an offense around Harris at all.

Oladipo isn't elite at anything he does. What is the justification for forcing the offense to run through him? If he's not elite at any element, why the hell is he touching the ball more than any other player on the team?

The problem with this "Harris is elite" bit is sample size. Harris hasn't established anything, everything is small sample size and a whisper of promise. You talk as if his greatness is obvious and he was
burried behind inferior talent. It's all about sample size and role. You can't have a world where Harris is a both a proven star and a mismanaged prospect. He hasn't proven anything over Oladipo or Vucevic and both earned more opportunities over Harris. Those are the facts, not this fanciful drama of Shakespearean proportions built on claims of mismanagement and injustice. There was mismanagement, no doubt, a team with Vucevic, Oladipo and Harris should enjoy more success, but it certainly is not clear that this mismanagement revolves around ticking up Harris's usage at the expense of Oladipo and Vucevic.

[tiderulz]

The problem with this "Harris is elite" bit is sample size. Harris hasn't established anything, everything is small sample size and a whisper of promise. You talk as if his greatness is obvious and he was
burried behind inferior talent. It's all about sample size and role. You can't have a world where Harris is a both a proven star and a mismanaged prospect. He hasn't proven anything over Oladipo or Vucevic and both earned more opportunities over Harris.

how did Dipo "earn more opportunities" over Harris? I saw him handed those opportunities from day 1, but i havent seen anything that "earned" it over anyone.

[mojosodope]

It is not at all clear that "Harris knows how to play basketball at a higher level and more efficiently than all of them". If that were the case wouldn't we be better off with him on the court vs off? Oladipo made a huge leap in his sophomore season and all but made up the difference in production compared to Harris. Apologizing for Harris requires an over-reliance on the "mismanagement" bit while also requiring Oladipo and Vucevic to be placed in a poor light since they were clearly ahead of him in the pecking order. No thanks.

[snip]

With Harris, what are his comps? Carmelo Anthony? At the age of 22 dude averaged 29/6/4 on 48/27/81 percentages. Antwan Jamison? He averaged 25/9/2 on 44/30/72 percentages in his second rotation quality season.

It's clear as day - Oladipo was given free reign to do whatever he liked on offense. He literally dictated the play he wanted to happen 50% of the time he was on the court. Giving a player that much room to create offensive opportunities that favour them is a massive advantage to helping that player improve.

And then you want to compare Carmelo and Jamison to Harris, using their inflated stats to frame Harris in a negative light - but they were given the same freedom as Oladipo and they averaged over 20fgas a piece!

You're just blindly ignoring that Harris wasn't given as much involvement or opportunity to put his stamp on the offense as Oladipo and Vuc. The fact that Harris is elite in particular scoring fields and that these are areas we really didn't feature in his game is the most obvious sign that we weren't interested in gearing an offense around Harris at all.

Oladipo isn't elite at anything he does. What is the justification for forcing the offense to run through him? If he's not elite at any element, why the hell is he touching the ball more than any other player on the team?

The problem with this "Harris is elite" bit is sample size. Harris hasn't established anything, everything is small sample size and a whisper of promise. You talk as if his greatness is obvious and he was
burried behind inferior talent. It's all about sample size and role. You can't have a world where Harris is a both a proven star and a mismanaged prospect. He hasn't proven anything over Oladipo or Vucevic and both earned more opportunities over Harris. Those are the facts, not this fanciful drama of Shakespearean proportions built on claims of mismanagement and injustice. There was mismanagement, no doubt, a team with Vucevic, Oladipo and Harris should enjoy more success, but it certainly is not clear that this mismanagement revolves around ticking up Harris's usage at the expense of Oladipo and Vucevic.

I find it comical how you try to conceal your outright hatred for Harris but every so often you can't help yourself and you go on these mini rant/tantrums expressing your true irrational sentiment.

At least MagicFan101's dislike of Harris is based on the solid foundation of it being a contract year and our other players are simply cheaper

[Bensational]

It is not at all clear that "Harris knows how to play basketball at a higher level and more efficiently than all of them". If that were the case wouldn't we be better off with him on the court vs off? Oladipo made a huge leap in his sophomore season and all but made up the difference in production compared to Harris. Apologizing for Harris requires an over-reliance on the "mismanagement" bit while also requiring Oladipo and Vucevic to be placed in a poor light since they were clearly ahead of him in the pecking order. No thanks.

[snip]

With Harris, what are his comps? Carmelo Anthony? At the age of 22 dude averaged 29/6/4 on 48/27/81 percentages. Antwan Jamison? He averaged 25/9/2 on 44/30/72 percentages in his second rotation quality season.

It's clear as day - Oladipo was given free reign to do whatever he liked on offense. He literally dictated the play he wanted to happen 50% of the time he was on the court. Giving a player that much room to create offensive opportunities that favour them is a massive advantage to helping that player improve.

And then you want to compare Carmelo and Jamison to Harris, using their inflated stats to frame Harris in a negative light - but they were given the same freedom as Oladipo and they averaged over 20fgas a piece!

You're just blindly ignoring that Harris wasn't given as much involvement or opportunity to put his stamp on the offense as Oladipo and Vuc. The fact that Harris is elite in particular scoring fields and that these are areas we really didn't feature in his game is the most obvious sign that we weren't interested in gearing an offense around Harris at all.

Oladipo isn't elite at anything he does. What is the justification for forcing the offense to run through him? If he's not elite at any element, why the hell is he touching the ball more than any other player on the team?

The problem with this "Harris is elite" bit is sample size. Harris hasn't established anything, everything is small sample size and a whisper of promise. You talk as if his greatness is obvious and he was
burried behind inferior talent. It's all about sample size and role. You can't have a world where Harris is a both a proven star and a mismanaged prospect. He hasn't proven anything over Oladipo or Vucevic and both earned more opportunities over Harris. Those are the facts, not this fanciful drama of Shakespearean proportions built on claims of mismanagement and injustice. There was mismanagement, no doubt, a team with Vucevic, Oladipo and Harris should enjoy more success, but it certainly is not clear that this mismanagement revolves around ticking up Harris's usage at the expense of Oladipo and Vucevic.

what's your definition of a significant sample size? and how's he supposed to get his numbers up without being given the opportunity through the coaches? i'd say a sample size that allows for over 1 play per game is perfectly relevant.

And it's a fact that Harris is elite in certain areas. you can say he doesn't do it enough for your liking but that's nothing that can be changed, nor can the fact that what he's done (on average, over 100 times in a season), still puts him in the 90th percentile or higher.

Here are some of Harris' most frequently used plays, and how he performs, and how Oladipo or Vuc perform.

CUTS
Harris - 110 possessions, 1.49ppp, 93rd percentile
Oladipo - 68 possessions, 1.29ppp, 71st percentile


SPOT UPS
Harris - 303 possessions, 1.00ppp, 63rd percentile
Oladipo - 244 possessions, 0.94ppp, 51st percentile


ISO
Harris - 105 possessions, 0.67ppp, 25th percentile
Oladipo - 109 possessions, 0.91ppp, 71st percentile


PNR BALLHANDLER
Harris - 150 possessions, 0.85ppp, 78th percentile
Oladipo - 592 possessions, 0.75ppp, 54th percentile


POST UP
Harris - 106 possessions, 1.04ppp, 89th percentile
Vucevic - 430 possessions, 0.87ppp, 59th percentle


There's your world with the proof that he's elite in areas. The proof that his offensive input is being mismanaged is in the discrepancy between opportunities for him and the opportunities others (Oladipo and Vuc) are given. If that's not enough, the rest of the proof lies in the fact that we give Harris as many ISO opportunities as we do when he's clearly not good at it (Oladipo, to his credit, is very good in ISO opportunities). You give those extra 100 possessions to Harris in a Post Up or PNR and that's an extra 20 - 40 points. Those points could have won us 2 more games, or they could have won us 10 more games. That's mismanagement.

And I'm not sure how Oladipo earned anything. He was never a PG, but we made him a PG in his rookie season. Had he earned that? **** no. But he needed that to accelerate his development. Even this year when Oladipo returned from injury, he was thrown into heavy minutes straight out of the gate, despite the fact that Fournier was outplaying him to start the season. Those extra minutes weren't earned. Not on the court at least.

[Bensational]

At least MagicFan101's dislike of Harris is based on the solid foundation of it being a contract year and our other players are simply cheaper

that's just what he's dressed it up as now.

wishing a career ending injury on someone doesn't come from having a preference for cheaper players.

[NEM]

At least MagicFan101's dislike of Harris is based on the solid foundation of it being a contract year and our other players are simply cheaper

that's just what he's dressed it up as now.

wishing a career ending injury on someone doesn't come from having a preference for cheaper players.

Thank god someone else remembers this crap. Also, expect a message from him in your inbox harassing you about him being a teacher of the game and all this other senseless garbage.

[Bensational]

At least MagicFan101's dislike of Harris is based on the solid foundation of it being a contract year and our other players are simply cheaper

that's just what he's dressed it up as now.

wishing a career ending injury on someone doesn't come from having a preference for cheaper players.

Thank god someone else remembers this crap. Also, expect a message from him in your inbox harassing you about him being a teacher of the game and all this other senseless garbage.

nah, i think me and MagicFan101 are cool. we agree and disagree on things, no more than other people. but yeah, i'll always remember that line, haha.

[MagicFan101]

At the height of the Harris love fest, we couldn't discuss anything else on this board.

At the time, the hypothetically extreme offer of Harris simply going down with an injury for the sake of us being able to talk about other players and actually have an ORLANDO MAGIC forum (rather than a Tobias groupie page) was an attempt to highlight how over the top this crap had become. A trade would have flooded the board with "FIRE HENNY" threads. A benching would have flooded the board with "FIRE THE COACH" threads. We eventually had the fire JV rants but still.

No one actually wants or wanted Harris or anyone else on this roster to suffer an injury.

I challenge all of you to be better than fools like NEM and avoid selective reading with literal interpretation.

I still love the idea of resigning Harris to anchor the 6th role in the future. It doesn't matter what role he plays next season as even if we push for a playoff spot we won't be true contenders. There are more pieces we need and one of them if a true PF. Once we find that guy (hopefully this summer but unlikely), we can push Harris to a 6th role to utilize him as Dipo was his season with a green light off the bench to provide us with depth and flexibility.

I want Harris on this team for many years to come.

I just don't want Harris on this team in the same role many of his fanatics do.

[NEM]

At the height of the Harris love fest, we couldn't discuss anything else on this board.

At the time, the hypothetically extreme offer of Harris simply going down with an injury for the sake of us being able to talk about other players and actually have an ORLANDO MAGIC forum (rather than a Tobias groupie page) was an attempt to highlight how over the top this crap had become. A trade would have flooded the board with "FIRE HENNY" threads. A benching would have flooded the board with "FIRE THE COACH" threads. We eventually had the fire JV rants but still.

No one actually wants or wanted Harris or anyone else on this roster to suffer an injury.

I challenge all of you to be better than fools like NEM and avoid selective reading with literal interpretation.

I still love the idea of resigning Harris to anchor the 6th role in the future. It doesn't matter what role he plays next season as even if we push for a playoff spot we won't be true contenders. There are more pieces we need and one of them if a true PF. Once we find that guy (hopefully this summer but unlikely), we can push Harris to a 6th role to utilize him as Dipo was his season with a green light off the bench to provide us with depth and flexibility.

I want Harris on this team for many years to come.

I just don't want Harris on this team in the same role many of his fanatics do.

I challenge you all to use better judgement when selecting words to describe your wishes for a certain player. "I really want Harris to suffer a career ending injury in pre-season," to me and many others on here means exactly what it says. Say what you mean and mean what you say, fool

[NEM]

On July 1, 2014:

MagicFan101 wrote
I really want Harris to suffer a career ending injury in pre-season.

I'm not kidding.

We need to get this irrational love fest over with. I can't take it much more.

I'd believe you when you say that it was a joke or whatever your excuse is, but the "I'm not kidding" doesn't support your argument. Good day, fool.

[mojosodope]

At the height of the Harris love fest, we couldn't discuss anything else on this board.

At the time, the hypothetically extreme offer of Harris simply going down with an injury for the sake of us being able to talk about other players and actually have an ORLANDO MAGIC forum (rather than a Tobias groupie page) was an attempt to highlight how over the top this crap had become. A trade would have flooded the board with "FIRE HENNY" threads. A benching would have flooded the board with "FIRE THE COACH" threads. We eventually had the fire JV rants but still.

No one actually wants or wanted Harris or anyone else on this roster to suffer an injury.

I challenge all of you to be better than fools like NEM and avoid selective reading with literal interpretation.

I still love the idea of resigning Harris to anchor the 6th role in the future. It doesn't matter what role he plays next season as even if we push for a playoff spot we won't be true contenders. There are more pieces we need and one of them if a true PF. Once we find that guy (hopefully this summer but unlikely), we can push Harris to a 6th role to utilize him as Dipo was his season with a green light off the bench to provide us with depth and flexibility.

I want Harris on this team for many years to come.

I just don't want Harris on this team in the same role many of his fanatics do.

Many of you post pretty ridiculous stuff on here from time to time but wishing a career ending is pretty low. Whatever though, if you have no problem writing crap like that, you have issues that are beyond an online message board.

As far as the 6th man role, perhaps it would be a good fit for harris as you said when we are TRULY competitive.

Asking him to embrace that role in this teams current "lottery treadmill" state is a joke and being completely opposed to using him more efficiently is absurd

[MagicFan101]

At the height of the Harris love fest, we couldn't discuss anything else on this board.

At the time, the hypothetically extreme offer of Harris simply going down with an injury for the sake of us being able to talk about other players and actually have an ORLANDO MAGIC forum (rather than a Tobias groupie page) was an attempt to highlight how over the top this crap had become. A trade would have flooded the board with "FIRE HENNY" threads. A benching would have flooded the board with "FIRE THE COACH" threads. We eventually had the fire JV rants but still.

No one actually wants or wanted Harris or anyone else on this roster to suffer an injury.

I challenge all of you to be better than fools like NEM and avoid selective reading with literal interpretation.

I still love the idea of resigning Harris to anchor the 6th role in the future. It doesn't matter what role he plays next season as even if we push for a playoff spot we won't be true contenders. There are more pieces we need and one of them if a true PF. Once we find that guy (hopefully this summer but unlikely), we can push Harris to a 6th role to utilize him as Dipo was his season with a green light off the bench to provide us with depth and flexibility.

I want Harris on this team for many years to come.

I just don't want Harris on this team in the same role many of his fanatics do.

I challenge you all to use better judgement when selecting words to describe your wishes for a certain player. "I hope Harris suffers a career ending injury in pre-season," to me and many others on here means exactly what it says. Say what you mean and mean what you say, fool

For a quick read basketball forum it might be best to stick to get straight to the point and do so clearly. I'll try to do that better.

But come on... if someone posts "Oh, I would kill to have Player X sign with us!" do you report them to the authorities?

[mojosodope]

At the height of the Harris love fest, we couldn't discuss anything else on this board.

At the time, the hypothetically extreme offer of Harris simply going down with an injury for the sake of us being able to talk about other players and actually have an ORLANDO MAGIC forum (rather than a Tobias groupie page) was an attempt to highlight how over the top this crap had become. A trade would have flooded the board with "FIRE HENNY" threads. A benching would have flooded the board with "FIRE THE COACH" threads. We eventually had the fire JV rants but still.

No one actually wants or wanted Harris or anyone else on this roster to suffer an injury.

I challenge all of you to be better than fools like NEM and avoid selective reading with literal interpretation.

I still love the idea of resigning Harris to anchor the 6th role in the future. It doesn't matter what role he plays next season as even if we push for a playoff spot we won't be true contenders. There are more pieces we need and one of them if a true PF. Once we find that guy (hopefully this summer but unlikely), we can push Harris to a 6th role to utilize him as Dipo was his season with a green light off the bench to provide us with depth and flexibility.

I want Harris on this team for many years to come.

I just don't want Harris on this team in the same role many of his fanatics do.

I challenge you all to use better judgement when selecting words to describe your wishes for a certain player. "I hope Harris suffers a career ending injury in pre-season," to me and many others on here means exactly what it says. Say what you mean and mean what you say, fool

For a quick read basketball forum it might be best to stick to get straight to the point and do so clearly. I'll try to do that better.

But come on... if someone posts "Oh, I would kill to have Player X sign with us!" do you report them to the authorities?

Really not the same thing...

[NEM]

At the height of the Harris love fest, we couldn't discuss anything else on this board.

At the time, the hypothetically extreme offer of Harris simply going down with an injury for the sake of us being able to talk about other players and actually have an ORLANDO MAGIC forum (rather than a Tobias groupie page) was an attempt to highlight how over the top this crap had become. A trade would have flooded the board with "FIRE HENNY" threads. A benching would have flooded the board with "FIRE THE COACH" threads. We eventually had the fire JV rants but still.

No one actually wants or wanted Harris or anyone else on this roster to suffer an injury.

I challenge all of you to be better than fools like NEM and avoid selective reading with literal interpretation.

I still love the idea of resigning Harris to anchor the 6th role in the future. It doesn't matter what role he plays next season as even if we push for a playoff spot we won't be true contenders. There are more pieces we need and one of them if a true PF. Once we find that guy (hopefully this summer but unlikely), we can push Harris to a 6th role to utilize him as Dipo was his season with a green light off the bench to provide us with depth and flexibility.

I want Harris on this team for many years to come.

I just don't want Harris on this team in the same role many of his fanatics do.

I challenge you all to use better judgement when selecting words to describe your wishes for a certain player. "I hope Harris suffers a career ending injury in pre-season," to me and many others on here means exactly what it says. Say what you mean and mean what you say, fool

For a quick read basketball forum it might be best to stick to get straight to the point and do so clearly. I'll try to do that better.

But come on... if someone posts "Oh, I would kill to have Player X sign with us!" do you report them to the authorities?

Not even remotely the same thing. "Oh, I would kill to have Player X sign with us!" is a figure of speech. "I hope Harris suffers a career ending injury in pre-season. I'm not kidding." is not. You made a stupid remark. Own it.

[eyriq]

Let's get back on subject please. The post in question was regrettable and handled accordingly.