The Tobias Harris Situation

[tooler]

John Denton: Elfrid, tiderulz on RealGM says you get burned a lot.

Elfrid: Pff.

[Bensational]

Tobias is an Rfa. Many teams, Lakers and Knicks most importantly, maybe even Pistons, will be far under the salary cap, and can throw a big offer at Harris. If they're convinced Magic won't match, then they won't be prepared to give anything of value now. You can understand free agency any way you want, that's still true.

If Magic drafted Gordon as Harris replacement at SF, then that's just bad assett management. Why draft a player that might be or not better at the same position you have no need? When there was a glaring hole at pf with plenty of guys that could fill it in the draft.

If they wanted to trade Harris for value, they should do it before the season started. Now... Best you could do is another Jj for Tobes deal.

the Magic, or whatever team has Harris' rights, are the ones with all the power in that situation. teams will be reluctant to offer any kind of deal if they think Orlando will match it, kinda like what happened to Monroe and Bledsoe this offseason.

as for asset management, hopefully AG was the BPA, regardless of position. we're nowhere near a point where we're drafting for need. Harris isn't Durant, he's an 18ppg player at the moment.

and Harris' value would have gone up exponentially this season compared to last season. trading him prior to him having a career season is definitely not the best way to get best value for him. it'd be the difference between trading for 6th man Harden, and Harden after his 1st season with Houston (well, obviously not to that degree, since Harris isn't at Harden's level).

[Skin]

so Harris is a ball hog? he shot 5 times the other night. And on a night when he does shoot badly, Dipo shoots even worse, but Dipo isnt a ball hog is he?

oh thats right, Orlando didnt draft Harris, so he sucks.

This has nothing to do with Dipo vs Harris or who ORL drafted vs traded for. I don't even think Harris sucks. You're grasping at air with your connections again. It's almost like you can't stand a single criticism against Harris. I don't really have a big issue with Harris' ball hogging. It seems to be periodic than constant and it stands out more when he is trying to shoot out of his slump and it's not working. The bigger problem with Harris is that his transition to SF has not been smooth defensively. He has struggled to be a good defender there. If he could, then he would be our Superstar...easy. He just isn't capable. I really did think SF would be his best position as a pro, but I'm starting to see that's probably not the case. It's the whole tweener effect. Too slow for the 3, too small for the 4.

However, I'm in the same boat as others who want to see Harris spending more time at PF with Gordon at SF. The wait is for JV to implement that rotation.

I need to know if what we saw in Harris in his first year here is still effective with our new roster. When he first got here we all loved him... I LOVED him... but he played a lot of PF back then. THAT'S what I want to see from him now. He averaged 1.4 blocks per game that season. Since the move to SF, that has gone down to .4 and .6 BPG. I know that's not the "tell all" sign for defense, but he did do a better job there than what he's doing now.

For all we know, maybe Harris is our magical 3-D guy we want at the 4 spot. He's not going to be an elite rim protector or a win a ton of individual defensive match ups against big PFs... so maybe not THAT magical, but he can defend quicker 4s and come up with some surprising blocks when he's in the post. I can see shades of a poor man's Ibaka. Scoring inside/out... rebounding... a lesser shot blocker, but similar when it comes to defending big PFs as they don't have the size to hold their ground or bang back... and conversely they can both keep up with smaller/quicker 4s. I'm fine with him as our 4 in small ball line ups. It wouldn't stop me from continuing to look for an elite rim protector or better all around PF, so that's why you also find me disagreeing with you on how much to pay Harris. I still think how Henny handled him last summer was the right move.

i just hate 1-sided criticism when we have other players on the team doing the exact same things, but we almost never hear criticism of them. And he has actually defended SF's at at least an average level. We also keep seeing guards blow us up, yet we dont hear criticism of Payton/Dipo and their defense. Yes, Elf is a good defender, but he also takes a lot of chances and gets burned an awful lot too. And I have yet to see this great defense from Dipo, all that we were hearing about him coming out of college was his defense, but i dont see a great defender out there from him

im also not opposed to moving him for a rim protecting PF, if there is one out there, if it helps the team.

Different situations. They are not treated equally because they aren't equal players. We're not at the decision roads with Payton and Dipo. They are brand new NBA players who have been developing their games. There is more leniency for them at this point. Neither of them are tweeners that are difficult to figure out how the puzzle piece works. Neither of them have a #4 overall draft pick sitting in the wings behind them.

Harris's best role for us is as an elite bench player. His versatility is both a plus and a minus. It's a plus because it allows us to use him at different positions. It's a minus because he can't play either position full time with the Magic (as they are built around Vuc) expecting to have a great team. Vucevic is locked up long term so Harris' weaknesses can't be masked like they would be if we had a strong defensive Center. Can Harris be happy coming off the bench AND being paid like a valuable bench player? In the $8-10M per year range?

[tiderulz]

Different situations. They are not treated equally because they aren't equal players. We're not at the decision roads with Payton and Dipo. They are brand new NBA players who have been developing their games. There is more leniency for them at this point. Neither of them are tweeners that are difficult to figure out how the puzzle piece works. Neither of them have a #4 overall draft pick sitting in the wings behind them.

Harris's best role for us is as an elite bench player. His versatility is both a plus and a minus. It's a plus because it allows us to use him at different positions. It's a minus because he can't play either position full time with the Magic (as they are built around Vuc) expecting to have a great team. Vucevic is locked up long term so Harris' weaknesses can't be masked like they would be if we had a strong defensive Center. Can Harris be happy coming off the bench AND being paid like a valuable bench player? In the $8-10M per year range?

criticism of play should be the same.

[Baka_La Flame]

Bottom line. Tobias is getting at least 1 max offer this summer so we should move hi know while his value is at it's peak. As much as I love the kid I don't want to give him max. 12 mil a year is my personal limit. If Henny pays a dollar more then he's a dumbass. I wonder what Tobias can fetch us on the open market?

[OrlandO]

Bottom line. Tobias is getting at least 1 max offer this summer so we should move hi know while his value is at it's peak. As much as I love the kid I don't want to give him max. 12 mil a year is my personal limit. If Henny pays a dollar more then he's a dumbass. I wonder what Tobias can fetch us on the open market?

What team is going offer him the max if his stats keep going down and our team keeps losing?

[Skin]

Different situations. They are not treated equally because they aren't equal players. We're not at the decision roads with Payton and Dipo. They are brand new NBA players who have been developing their games. There is more leniency for them at this point. Neither of them are tweeners that are difficult to figure out how the puzzle piece works. Neither of them have a #4 overall draft pick sitting in the wings behind them.

Harris's best role for us is as an elite bench player. His versatility is both a plus and a minus. It's a plus because it allows us to use him at different positions. It's a minus because he can't play either position full time with the Magic (as they are built around Vuc) expecting to have a great team. Vucevic is locked up long term so Harris' weaknesses can't be masked like they would be if we had a strong defensive Center. Can Harris be happy coming off the bench AND being paid like a valuable bench player? In the $8-10M per year range?

criticism of play should be the same.

Sure. If you're talking about where they can improve... and what things they need to improve in. You can add in a lot of things. But it shouldn't have as much effect today as it does for Tobe since he is a RFA and they aren't. You can't compare a rookie and second year player to that of a 5th year player equally. We'll be much more critical of any player looking for their second contract since by then, who they are is much less of a guessing game.

What did you think of Harris' game tonight?

[Baka_La Flame]

Bottom line. Tobias is getting at least 1 max offer this summer so we should move hi know while his value is at it's peak. As much as I love the kid I don't want to give him max. 12 mil a year is my personal limit. If Henny pays a dollar more then he's a dumbass. I wonder what Tobias can fetch us on the open market?

What team is going offer him the max if his stats keep going down and our team keeps losing?

The Sixers just to try and F us lol. Na I think he's going to bounce back. We've seen him slump before. If he finishes the season averaging around the same numbers he's currently averaging I think he gets 1 or 2 max offers. I can see Philly Boston and potentially Utah offering him max. If I was a betting man I would say he gets at least one offer unfortunately that's all it takes

[mojosodope]

Bottom line. Tobias is getting at least 1 max offer this summer so we should move hi know while his value is at it's peak. As much as I love the kid I don't want to give him max. 12 mil a year is my personal limit. If Henny pays a dollar more then he's a dumbass. I wonder what Tobias can fetch us on the open market?

What team is going offer him the max if his stats keep going down and our team keeps losing?

You don't think ONE gm will be willing to attribute some of slumping performance to poor coaching?

[OrlandO]

Bottom line. Tobias is getting at least 1 max offer this summer so we should move hi know while his value is at it's peak. As much as I love the kid I don't want to give him max. 12 mil a year is my personal limit. If Henny pays a dollar more then he's a dumbass. I wonder what Tobias can fetch us on the open market?

What team is going offer him the max if his stats keep going down and our team keeps losing?

The Sixers just to try and F us lol. Na I think he's going to bounce back. We've seen him slump before. If he finishes the season averaging around the same numbers he's currently averaging I think he gets 1 or 2 max offers. I can see Philly Boston and potentially Utah offering him max. If I was a betting man I would say he gets at least one offer unfortunately that's all it takes

I still believe in Tobias and want to retain him on our team, but to be honest I'm not seeing the max offers even if he finishes with 17/7. We are losing so much and it has to impact his value. I'm drawing a blank, but which players in similar situations received max offers in the past couple years? His window to impress teams might be closed, too, now that we're fully healthy (more touches for others) and vaughn is giving him significantly less minutes.

[Driguez]

Wrong thread whoops

[Skin]

What team is going offer him the max if his stats keep going down and our team keeps losing?

The Sixers just to try and F us lol. Na I think he's going to bounce back. We've seen him slump before. If he finishes the season averaging around the same numbers he's currently averaging I think he gets 1 or 2 max offers. I can see Philly Boston and potentially Utah offering him max. If I was a betting man I would say he gets at least one offer unfortunately that's all it takes

I still believe in Tobias and want to retain him on our team, but to be honest I'm not seeing the max offers even if he finishes with 17/7. We are losing so much and it has to impact his value. I'm drawing a blank, but which players in similar situations received max offers in the past couple years? His window to impress teams might be closed, too, now that we're fully healthy (more touches for others) and vaughn is giving him significantly less minutes.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but Gordan Hayward and Chandler Parsons got the max.

I'm hoping he'd take something like Isaiah Thomas. Thomas averaged 20 and 6 and got a 4 year, $27M deal from the Suns.

[OrlandO]

The Sixers just to try and F us lol. Na I think he's going to bounce back. We've seen him slump before. If he finishes the season averaging around the same numbers he's currently averaging I think he gets 1 or 2 max offers. I can see Philly Boston and potentially Utah offering him max. If I was a betting man I would say he gets at least one offer unfortunately that's all it takes

I still believe in Tobias and want to retain him on our team, but to be honest I'm not seeing the max offers even if he finishes with 17/7. We are losing so much and it has to impact his value. I'm drawing a blank, but which players in similar situations received max offers in the past couple years? His window to impress teams might be closed, too, now that we're fully healthy (more touches for others) and vaughn is giving him significantly less minutes.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but Gordan Hayward and Chandler Parsons got the max.

I'm hoping he'd take something like Isaiah Thomas. Thomas averaged 20 and 6 and got a 4 year, $27M deal from the Suns.

Parsons put up really good numbers as a major piece on a 54-win team and he proved he could continue putting up those numbers in the playoffs as well. There are way more question marks in Harris' corner that teams will definitely take into consideration.

Hayward is probably the best comparison we can make since he was also on a bad team, but wasn't he viewed around the league as a better overall player than harris is showing now? I remember seeing several rumors of hayward receiving max level interest from multiple teams last season, but nearly 50 games into this season I am not hearing that level of hype for harris. Have we even seen one report of a team being interested in harris?? I've only seen the couple rumors from a ny tabloid saying harris is interested in the knicks, not the other way around. I feel like outside of Orlando he is being viewed as a numbers guy... I'm not complaining if that's the case because I believe in him and want to retain him for as cheap as possible. I think he'll easily get more than Thomas though...

[D J C]

Just me or does a Tobias for Jrue Holiday trade make sense?

Finally gets us a legitimate backup point. Start Elf-Dipo-AG-Frye-Vuc and have him lead the 2nd unit with Marble, Evan, O'Quinn and Dedmon for now. He could play with either one of Payton or Vic too.

Get our future at the other forward spot this draft, sign a vet wing in the Tayshaun/Battier mold. Oh, and maybe a new coach?

[OrlandO]

Bottom line. Tobias is getting at least 1 max offer this summer so we should move hi know while his value is at it's peak. As much as I love the kid I don't want to give him max. 12 mil a year is my personal limit. If Henny pays a dollar more then he's a dumbass. I wonder what Tobias can fetch us on the open market?

What team is going offer him the max if his stats keep going down and our team keeps losing?

You don't think ONE gm will be willing to attribute some of slumping performance to poor coaching?

Which teams do you think are candidates to take a risk on him? I can't recall any rumors mentioning interested teams or even simply to state his perceived value. All I've heard is that we supposedly failed to extend him for $9 million/year and a tabloid mentioned harris wants to play in NY. If he's viewed as a max player, he's certainly not getting the hype that usually goes along with it. It's always possible a team will get desperate in free agency, but I just don't think it's a given with harris like most of this board.

Harris has done some good things this season to help his case (solid/consistent stats on good efficiency, improved 3pt%, couple game winners, rebounding) and we have to factor in the upcoming tv deal and vaughn's awful coaching, but has he done enough to really guarantee a $16 million per year offer like this board has been saying since extension talks failed? With the significant role promotion and more minutes this year I expected him to take over games more, especially while Oladipo was out, but I don't feel like we've seen much of that. His assist numbers are also still quite low, he's looking average at best on defense imo, he's playing more selfishly and forcing up some bad shots, he's still plowing into players like an idiot, and like I mentioned earlier his impact on the team isn't quite there. I feel like he's getting a reputation as a numbers guy on a bad team. Still 34 games left, but I'm liking our chances of matching an offer that will be much less than what we thought earlier in the year.

[Baka_La Flame]

Just me or does a Tobias for Jrue Holiday trade make sense?

Finally gets us a legitimate backup point. Start Elf-Dipo-AG-Frye-Vuc and have him lead the 2nd unit with Marble, Evan, O'Quinn and Dedmon for now. He could play with either one of Payton or Vic too.

Get our future at the other forward spot this draft, sign a vet wing in the Tayshaun/Battier mold. Oh, and maybe a new coach?

It's just you.

[mojosodope]

What team is going offer him the max if his stats keep going down and our team keeps losing?

You don't think ONE gm will be willing to attribute some of slumping performance to poor coaching?

Which teams do you think are candidates to take a risk on him? I can't recall any rumors mentioning interested teams or even simply to state his perceived value. All I've heard is that we supposedly failed to extend him for $9 million/year and a tabloid mentioned harris wants to play in NY. If he's viewed as a max player, he's certainly not getting the hype that usually goes along with it. It's always possible a team will get desperate in free agency, but I just don't think it's a given with harris like most of this board.

Harris has done some good things this season to help his case (solid/consistent stats on good efficiency, improved 3pt%, couple game winners, rebounding) and we have to factor in the upcoming tv deal and vaughn's awful coaching, but has he done enough to really guarantee a $16 million per year offer like this board has been saying since extension talks failed? With the significant role promotion and more minutes this year I expected him to take over games more, especially while Oladipo was out, but I don't feel like we've seen much of that. His assist numbers are also still quite low, he's looking average at best on defense imo, he's playing more selfishly and forcing up some bad shots, he's still plowing into players like an idiot, and like I mentioned earlier his impact on the team isn't quite there. I feel like he's getting a reputation as a numbers guy on a bad team. Still 34 games left, but I'm liking our chances of matching an offer that will be much less than what we thought earlier in the year.

I think there are a number of teams that will "take a chance on him". A max for him is closer to 14.4 than 16 per year. I honestly didn't expect Parsons, Hayward or Burks to get close to what they did last year so one could say I didn't hear the "hype" on either of them during the season, and being that its common knowledge that we have an inept (understatement) coach, I think there will be more than one GM who will think that with proper coaching Harris would be better than his empty (yet efficient) stats indicate

[OrlandO]

You don't think ONE gm will be willing to attribute some of slumping performance to poor coaching?

Which teams do you think are candidates to take a risk on him? I can't recall any rumors mentioning interested teams or even simply to state his perceived value. All I've heard is that we supposedly failed to extend him for $9 million/year and a tabloid mentioned harris wants to play in NY. If he's viewed as a max player, he's certainly not getting the hype that usually goes along with it. It's always possible a team will get desperate in free agency, but I just don't think it's a given with harris like most of this board.

Harris has done some good things this season to help his case (solid/consistent stats on good efficiency, improved 3pt%, couple game winners, rebounding) and we have to factor in the upcoming tv deal and vaughn's awful coaching, but has he done enough to really guarantee a $16 million per year offer like this board has been saying since extension talks failed? With the significant role promotion and more minutes this year I expected him to take over games more, especially while Oladipo was out, but I don't feel like we've seen much of that. His assist numbers are also still quite low, he's looking average at best on defense imo, he's playing more selfishly and forcing up some bad shots, he's still plowing into players like an idiot, and like I mentioned earlier his impact on the team isn't quite there. I feel like he's getting a reputation as a numbers guy on a bad team. Still 34 games left, but I'm liking our chances of matching an offer that will be much less than what we thought earlier in the year.

I think there are a number of teams that will "take a chance on him". A max for him is closer to 14.4 than 16 per year. I honestly didn't expect Parsons, Hayward or Burks to get close to what they did last year so one could say I didn't hear the "hype" on either of them during the season, and being that its common knowledge that we have an inept (understatement) coach, I think there will be more than one GM who will think that with proper coaching Harris would be better than his empty (yet efficient) stats indicate

"A number of teams" - well if you're not going to name teams then why even question me about it? Also, maybe you didn't hear it, but there were definitely reports floating around of teams being interested in hayward with big offers ready. Harris has had nothing of the sort. Not sure about Parsons, but his situation was quite different seeing how he put up good stats in the regular season for a 54-win team in the west and he also had some solid games in two post seasons. Dallas knew what they were getting with Parsons... there are a lot more question marks with Harris. I'm sure teams have interest in Harris, but I see no indication that it's max level interest. I've also considered Vaughn's terrible coaching, but I still think Harris has fallen a little short of guaranteeing a max offer this summer like you're suggesting.

[cedric76]

With kemba down , hornets would jump for a package Harris for vonleh

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[thelead]

With kemba down , hornets would jump for a package Harris for vonleh

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Remind me again, what evidence do you have that Vonleh can produce in the NBA?